View Full Version : Art & Inspiration Aero-Engined Vintage Racers


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SteveLines
11-11-2007, 03:36 AM
By popular request, as an offshoot of the Vintage Bugatti thread here's one dedicated to aero-engined vintage racing cars.

A few from the UK to kick things off!

GN JAP

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN3.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN4.jpg

Vauxhall Viper

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/Viper3.jpg

Picard Pictet

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/PP1.jpg

storm king
11-11-2007, 07:45 AM
A WOOD chassis?! How could you not love it!

charleyw
11-11-2007, 08:08 AM
The one with the wood chassis is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time! It just looks mean.

jimdillon
11-11-2007, 12:36 PM
Steve, a nice thread and a few nice cars to start it out. Aero engine cars are always interesting to say the least. Although I have an engine to tear down it is hard to turn down a thread on aero engines. There are some great stories with aero engine cars with the Hall Scott engines and the Chitty Chitty cars of Count Zaborowski and Ray Keech in the triple engine Liberty based racer called Triplex and Babs with the Liberty, as well as many more. Most of these though were hot rods in a sense where men could test their mettle I suppose but there were some successful race cars based on aero engines.

Mercedes in their quest to test their aero engine principles put some 4 cylinder aero style engines in a newly designed chassis and prepared 5 cars for the 1914 French Grand Prix at Lyons. The French of course with the Peugeot and their Delages thought they would have the cars to beat but Mercedes ran away with the race and took the top three spots in what was some consider to be one of the greatest contest ever run. Lautenschlager in the #28 took top honors (this car is owned by George Wingard), Wagner in the #40 car took second, and Salzer in the #39 car was third. The photo with the Mercedes engine apart was the post race teardown to make sure it met all of the proper criteria. The great American racer Ralph DePalma was in an English Vauxhaul but did not fair too well as the cars were relatively not competitive. The first World War was only a matter of days away and Ralph who had represented Mercedes very well with several Mercedes racecars in the States, was summoned to the Mercedes factory and a deal was struck for him to take back the second place finisher of Wagner.

Most racing drivers of the era could not afford the high cost of racing and had patrons who were sportsman and bought the cars and helped with expenses. E.C.Patterson was Ralph's patron at the moment and the car was brought back to the states and ran quite well at Elgin as well as some other tracks. The car was entered in the 1915 Indianapolis classic and it was sent to the Packard experimental department to be readied for the race. Jesse Vincent Packard's Chief would serve as the crew chief during the race and DePalma credited the preparation and especially the change in carburetor from the Claudel to a Packard carb with a big reason for his winning the 1915 Indy. The one photo shows the Packard carb and the other photo is DePalma driving out on about Detroit with new more streamlined bodywork. Shortly after this Patterson feeling the heat of owning a German car during the WWI campaign gave up his interest in the Mercedes and DePalma found some new patrons in Frank and Herbert Book from Detroit wherein they would form a partnership to build racecars. Ralph's 14 GP Mercedes was rebuilt several times in the Packard experimental department though prior to the Book Brother's involvement. The Mercedes was brought into the Packard shop in November 1915 and Packard went about building their own racer to test their own aero engine principles. As is well known Packard (and some others) built Liberty aircraft engines to help go fight the Kaiser. The photo with the progression of 12 cylinder aero engines shows a 299 c.i., then two 905 c.i. engines, then two 1650c.i. engines. They built 2 of the 299 engines and several of the 905 engines for aero testing. They built bunches of the 1659c.i. variety. It was not happenstance that they built 299 c.i. engines as the AAA racing limitation at the time was 300 c.i.. According to my grandfather who worked in the department when all of this was occurring and who worked on some of the racecars as well as on the Liberty engines, the 299 racers were built side by side to the rebuilding of the Mercedes and there were several things they adapted from the Mercedes racers such as the rear spring hangers (exact copies). The 299s were finished in the early spring (first photo of engine with the hood up shows the early intake and a second photo showing the second intake with Ralph tinkering on the car) and were tested although Packard came out with an edict that due to the war they were not going to go racing, which did not kill the effort but surely slowed it down. At the time Ralph was racing with the Book brothers and they had a pretty impressive stable of cars, the 14 GP Mercedes, a Mercedes copy called the Detroit Special, Lutcher Brown's Peugeot, a Stutz and then the 299 Packard which DePalma owned. The Book's got busy with war work and DePalma was also busy with some war work but found some time to race the 299 in 1917 and 1918 and setting a good number of track and world's records with the car. The one photo shows it on the boards in 1917. In 1917 Ralph DePalma with the 299 and Barney Oldfield with the Golden Sub had a series of match races. The Sub did very well on the dirt but not as well on the boards and the reverse was true for the 299, where it was very fast on the boards. The photo below with the three cars lined up is at Sheepshead Bay with Louis Chevrolet in one of his beautiful 1916 Frontenac OHC fours. DePalma on that day was fastest, running around 121+mph as he took the checkers. Note in the photo on how DePalma and his mechanician are leaning forward to cheat the wind a bit.

During this time Packard had placed one of the aero 905s in a chassis and went about testing and setting records. When the war ended in 1918 Packard went about rebodying the 905 and took it to Daytona in 1919 and set the world land speed record at 149+. Ralph officialy was the first to 150mph, hitting that in the kilo on February 12 ,1919 and then went on to set the world record running both ways the 20 mile distance. It is a long story but the sanctioning body for record setting in the States with AAA and the foreign sanctioning bodies were not on the same page so some took issue with whether the record was truly official. Whiners all.

The 299 was rebodied as well for the upcoming 1919 Indianapolis classic and the press had a field day writing how successful the car should be. The car with familiar#4 sat on the outside of the front row and led the first half of the race, pretty much running away but suffered a few setbacks, including a valve problem and then a frozen right front wheel bearing which took 20 minutes to repair. The car stormed back running strong and finished in 6th position. It is still the only 12 cylinder car to ever finish the Indy 500.

The whereabouts of the DePalma Mercedes is unknown although Frank Book kept his Mercedes copy, the Detroit Special and could be seen driving it in the early to mid thirties, whereabouts unknown. One of the 299s (engine#2) was sold to a Baroness Maria D'Avanzo and was raced in Europe and the did well racing in the Alps and the Fanoe Islands. On November 14, 1920 at the Gallarate Speed Trials Eugenio Silvani in the other 299 blew away the competition breaking the Italian Speed record at 157.894 kph average. One of the competitors that day in an Alfa was a new driver by the name of Enzo Ferrari and there have been articles written that Enzo stated he had the inspiration for his twelve from the Packard 12 that raced at Indy in the teens. There were two 905s and Jesse Vincent's diary notes the sale of the first for $10,000 probably to Jesse Lasky in Hollywood. The second was pushed around the experimental department for awhile, whereabouts today unknown, although there is a 905 engine in the catacombs of the Smithsonian. Whether this is the Daytona record setting 905 is unknown as it is setup for aircraft and not auto racing.

The 299 engine#1 resides in my shop. The 299 had a few racing miles and whereas the 1914 Mercedes of DePalma required much repair work and many parts replaced, the 299 had served DePalma quite well with very little repair. After Indy in 1919 the 299 finally starting showing the strain of high speed racing and in September she finally retired with a broken bottom end, more than likely a thrown rod. My engine has a new crankcase that has some minor differences from the one cast in 1915/16. Right after the engine was retired from competition, it was placed proudly on display at Packard headquarters until they went out of business. It floated around in a few others hands until in the early eighties I was fortunate to buy it . Work has a habit of getting in the way of me having fun and working on cars all day but as soon as I finish my present project, work in earnest will begin on getting the 299 back on the track, albeit vintage.-Jim

jimdillon
11-11-2007, 12:44 PM
More of the photos-Jim

jimdillon
11-11-2007, 12:46 PM
More photos yet again-Jim

chaddilac
11-11-2007, 12:47 PM
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg



Is that a two seater... that's got to be the coolest vintage racer. I'd like to see more detailed images of the cool wood frame and all the detailed parts!!!

Jonny69
11-11-2007, 12:47 PM
That GN is the bollocks

Bigcheese327
11-11-2007, 12:50 PM
I didn't look at the Bugatti thread, so I don't know if this one made it in, but I've always liked it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/conwi1wd/1910s/1915_OX5_aircraft_engine.jpg

This one has an OX5, but I also love Liberty engines - whether they're in planes, boats, or cars. Too bad no one ever built a road-going Packard Merlin car after WWII.

-Dave

Casey
11-11-2007, 12:59 PM
wow! interesting thread . I have no clue what this is.
but the guy brought it from across the pond and showed up at the Kingsbury car show and fly in two year`s ago.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r265/hot_rod_artist/CA6J0HAN.jpg

Casey
11-11-2007, 01:02 PM
ok that`s just wierd:cool:

Toast
11-11-2007, 01:10 PM
Man, those things ar freakin cool!

MidnightTrain
11-11-2007, 01:34 PM
I've been dreaming of driving on of these type of car for years now. It's a goal before i die to build a modern-ish version. It's all planned out,i just need the funds.

Thanks for all the awesome information, Jim.


and yea,that GN is the Tits.

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 01:41 PM
the Vauxhaul is for sale if anyone is interested.

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 01:56 PM
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/cars/fiat/fiat-mephistopheles-217l-1924-land-speed-rekord-car.gif

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 01:59 PM
http://bigscalemodels.com/cars/fiat_mefistofele/fiat_mefistofele_photo_big/1924-Fiat-Mephistophele2s.jpg

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 01:59 PM
http://bigscalemodels.com/cars/fiat_mefistofele/fiat_mefistofele_photo_big/fiat-mephistopheles2.jpg

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 02:00 PM
http://bigscalemodels.com/cars/fiat_mefistofele/fiat_mefistofele_photo_big/fiat-mephistopheles3.jpg

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 02:08 PM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2U-ynRK4e6s&rel=1"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2U-ynRK4e6s&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

jimdillon
11-11-2007, 02:36 PM
Babs is always a great story as well. After it sent Parry Thomas to his grave they buried it on the beach at Pendine Sands. Then in 1969 it was dug up and found it was not totally destroyed. Today it has been restored.-Jim
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u1-yEnUAO1w

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ekiAsPfyr3k

22dodge
11-11-2007, 02:53 PM
Awesome thread, that first wood framed car is amazing.
Damn, it makes you want to go build something... '22

Casey
11-11-2007, 03:11 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Mo8Kj2txs
these are great here`s part 1

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 03:22 PM
Awesome thread, that first wood framed car is amazing.
Damn, it makes you want to go build something... '22

i think that HAMB has an anti pre-'23 policy ;)

Mac the Yankee
11-11-2007, 03:34 PM
Love that Bleriot- I think I'm off to Home Depot to build myself a frame!

Clark
11-11-2007, 03:58 PM
The GN rules!!! I would love to see that car in person. I'm sure it has great details everywhere!!
Clark

mac miller
11-11-2007, 06:22 PM
Hey! Don't forget the great American race cars from the 30s through the 50s(maybe, even, into the early 60s) that used the Hisso and the Ranger aircraft engines. These cars were, basically, outlaw sprint cars(usually called "Big Cars") running the half mile tracks from Indiana to California. I look forward to seeing some of them, in person, every year at the great old outlaw track at Jungle Park Indiana reunion...

Ramblur
11-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Well it doesn't have wheels on it,but it is a vintage racer and does have an OX5,so I'll throw it out here. Was at Fantasy Of Flight this
weekend,and they did start and run it a couple
times...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll124.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll121.jpg

Ramblur
11-11-2007, 06:27 PM
And heres the rest...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll120.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll122.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll125.jpg

Ramblur
11-11-2007, 06:31 PM
Here's the rest...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll120.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll122.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll125.jpg

Rand Man
11-11-2007, 06:39 PM
There is a lot of information on the Web about the old "Hisso" sprint cars. They were usually made from half of a Hispano-Suza WWI aircraft engine. I think they had bout 400 cubic inches in four cylinders. I don't have any photos handy right now, but you could spend hours surfing Hisso.

Ratty
11-11-2007, 06:54 PM
A good mate of mine has a load of photo's of this car ...

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg

... but he's over your side of the Pond just now so it'll be a week or so til I can steal and post them . He saw it racing at Mallory Park in Liecestershire which is renowned for a very long righthander around a lake . Apparently the GN went round the whole corner completely sideways , lap after lap . :eek: :eek: :eek:

Man I wish I'd seen that , I'll be there with my camera next time ...

The37Kid
11-11-2007, 07:45 PM
http://winfield.50megs.com/Hisso.htm

The Hisso Race Car site has some great photos. these V8 OHC aero engines were dirt cheap WWI surplus in the late 1920's so were the OX-5 Curtis V8's

Silent_Orchestra
11-11-2007, 08:10 PM
That GN is cool as hell, it would be sweet to see it in person. Keep 'em comin'.

Bobby

Sour Kraut
11-11-2007, 08:20 PM
F.I.A.T.
Fix It Again Tony
Feeble Italian Attempt at Technology
The boat must have been a hand full! Nuckin Futts!

The Brudwich
11-11-2007, 08:22 PM
Wow, this thread is super awesome.

The37Kid
11-11-2007, 08:25 PM
This is the Larry Beals Hisso in 1924 at the Pottsville, Pa. AAA racetrack. If you click onto the Hisso site I posted the link to you can see other photos of the car when Larry had it and the fellow before him that was killed in it when it rolled. My guess is that a wood wheel broke, Beals had wires on it through out his ownership. The car was a 1908 GP Mercedes factory racer that won a 1908 GP. Some time around 1910 Spencer Wishart bought it from the factory for $62,000 (someone do the math so we know what that would be in 2007 dollars), and intered it in the first INDY 500 in 1911 and finished fourth. The following year he finished 15th in the same car. Larry Beals went on to race a Miller and the Hisso powered Mercedes wound up in the Tompson collection in Ohio soimetime in the late 1930's. It sold in a sealed bid auction about 5-6 years ago and is back in Germany, undergoing a restoration to its 1908 Factory GP car specs. I did get to sit in it while it was at a dealership before its flight home. The quality of the vehicle and the condition it was in was wonderful, everyone that saw it agreed it should have been left as is. Race car of very early hot rod it was a very special car.

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 08:28 PM
Love that Bleriot- I think I'm off to Home Depot to build myself a frame!

Frank Lockhart would agree with you.

Mac the Yankee
11-11-2007, 09:27 PM
Alright Mr. B-

You pickin' on me from a different post?!...

or am I just dense and missin' something with the Lockhart reference:rolleyes: ?

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Alright Mr. B-

You pickin' on me from a different post?!...

or am I just dense and missin' something with the Lockhart reference:rolleyes: ?

go research Frank Lockhart...you won't be let down.

Borgeson's quote about Lockharts early career (15 years old or so) was "that any man who would use steel, over light hardwood, for a frame was a fool."

here is his final car...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/N041944a.jpg

jimdillon
11-11-2007, 10:03 PM
Anyone got any good pics on the Triplex driven by ray Keech in the late twenties? A pretty neat cat with three Liberty V12s that set the land speed record in 1928 of 207+. Second attempt though killed the new driver Lee Bible, when they were trying to up the record after the Brit Henry Seagrave upped the ante to 231+.

Here is the Mercedes we had in a thread recently that has a Hall Scott aero engine. That car would be a whole bunch of fun to drive as the engine is pretty much a decent size that would allow you to really handle the car as opposed to the opposite.-Jim

The37Kid
11-11-2007, 10:05 PM
Lockhart's early rides were a bit Spartan.

22dodge
11-11-2007, 10:27 PM
i think that HAMB has an anti pre-'23 policy ;)

:confused: Hasn't been a problem that I know of............... :p '22

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 10:50 PM
Anyone got any good pics on the Triplex driven by ray Keech in the late twenties? A pretty neat cat with three Liberty V12s that set the land speed record in 1928 of 207+. Second attempt though killed the new driver Lee Bible, when they were trying to up the record after the Brit Henry Seagrave upped the ante to 231+.

Here is the Mercedes we had in a thread recently that has a Hall Scott aero engine. That car would be a whole bunch of fun to drive as the engine is pretty much a decent size that would allow you to really handle the car as opposed to the opposite.-Jim

Hall Scott aero engine, 4 cylinder SOHC, wonder if I could find one somewhere...definately screams special.

MidnightTrain
11-11-2007, 10:50 PM
Found lots of picture of the GN. other probally found these too,but it's worth putting

i couldn't figure it out...here. 4 pages worth.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2011792200036898833FwaIpQ?vhost=rides

fur biscuit
11-11-2007, 10:51 PM
Lockhart's early rides were a bit Spartan.


good picture, taken after he won a championship race at Ascot. For the technical detainians out there, note: he is using only front brakes (though probably he is using the T tranny brake)

Mercmad
11-12-2007, 01:57 AM
In the Bugatti hot Rod thread I posted up a pic of the Napier Railton, Powered with a 1918 Napier Lion 'W' 12 Aero engine, heres some pics of this fantaic car.
http://www.brooklands.org.uk/reunion/naprail.htm

and a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrLq83aFUZY
Another wild bit of gear was the Napier Bentley.
http://www.brooklands.org.uk/Originalimages/R9813_1.jpg

These engines are 24 liter...24000 CC's..:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqiTmTuGdA

SteveLines
11-12-2007, 02:06 AM
Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread! Keep the photos comin'!

The GN is a great car and the owner races it with real gusto - sideways at every opportunity.

Here's a picture of the Napier Railton, a Brooklands Outer Circuit car.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/P1010095.jpg

Mercmad
11-12-2007, 02:21 AM
I see mention of using the Rolls/Packard Merlin engine in road cars,It doesn't work to well because they're an aircraft engine designed to run constantly at 1200RPM. The One to use was the Rolls Meteor which was used in Centurion tanks. They had a different set of cams to spread the power curve over a full engine range.
There is at least one prewar Rolls Royce here in OZ with a meteor engine.

SteveLines
11-12-2007, 05:14 AM
Here is the for sale link for the V8 Hispano Suiza engined Vauxhall if anyone has a spare 80K to spend!

http://www.prewarcar.com/show_prewar_car.asp?car_id=48064

kvisser
11-12-2007, 06:16 AM
Here is the Mercedes we had in a thread recently that has a Hall Scott aero engine. That car would be a whole bunch of fun to drive as the engine is pretty much a decent size that would allow you to really handle the car as opposed to the opposite.-Jim


The owner takes this car out occasionally on the streets of Pennsylvania. He says the bimmer drivers have no idea what just passed them!

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer07frontendbklr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer06frontendlr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer05tanklr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer04pedalslr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer03pedalslr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racer02suspensionlr.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/karmakvisser/st%20michaels%2007/stmchl07mb11racecar01gasgaugelr.jpg

Mac the Yankee
11-12-2007, 06:33 AM
Thanks for the info Mr. B-

I've read a little about Frank Lockhart in the Miller books and know that he died in the Stutz LSR (stunning car), but will need to go find some more!

Bluto
11-12-2007, 07:05 AM
There are two Zero time Meteor engines on pre-warcars.com

I have always thought a Curtis Conquer would do nicely it's a smaller package with plenty of Zoooooooooooooom :)

Ramblur
11-12-2007, 07:54 AM
These two models were sitting on the boat that I posted.
Look familiar to anybody? LoL,I mean scale models...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07ll123.jpg

haroldd1963
11-12-2007, 08:03 AM
Awesome Thread!

James D
11-12-2007, 08:59 AM
There are two Zero time Meteor engines on pre-warcars.com


There was also a cut down 18 litre V8 version of this motor, known as a Meteorite and fitted to tank transporters (Thorneycroft Mighty Antar). It would pull 100 tons!!

model.A.keith
11-12-2007, 10:06 AM
A few more enjoy !


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window190.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window165.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window200.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window188.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window173.jpg

73roundlight
11-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread! Keep the photos comin'!

The GN is a great car and the owner races it with real gusto - sideways at every opportunity.

Here's a picture of the Napier Railton, a Brooklands Outer Circuit car.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/P1010095.jpg

I was going to say the Napier had an Aero engine. Glad you guys beat me to it :D

PS here is a car that is sort of aero-engined.

superduper88
11-12-2007, 12:16 PM
I love this thread, I'd love to drive/own the Napier. Wonder if the current owner would trade my '55 for it?? Ha ha, yeah right!!!

How much horspower did these things make?

Seems like I seen an old picture once of a car with a radial type aircraft engine in it, now THAT was cool! (if someone has that pic, please please please post it!!!)

Later- John

Hackerbilt
11-12-2007, 12:57 PM
Napier-Railton specs...from some website...

2 litres PER cylinder!!! 3 banks of 4 cylinders...

23,970cc W12 with double overhead camshafts per bank and four valves per cylinder;
530bhp at 2,350rpm, maximum revs 3,000rpm. Three-speed Moss constant-mesh gearbox driving the rear wheels.

fur biscuit
11-12-2007, 01:11 PM
the Howe Hisso...and John Gerber above

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/furbiscuit/OldPics001.jpg

fur biscuit
11-12-2007, 01:12 PM
This is the founder of Honda's hot rod. Used to race it in the river beds around tokyo. The engine is a Curtiss OX-1 (I think)


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/furbiscuit/pho_01.jpg

Mac the Yankee
11-12-2007, 01:49 PM
I think this was the original inspiration for

DEATH RACE 2000... can't you see David Carridine in it?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=376264&d=1194888079

Bluto
11-12-2007, 02:22 PM
Got my old brain working today :)

Remember that somewhere in this mess was an original Gurney Nutting

Napier record car design

This done for Messrs Thomson & Taylor

Sorry for the bad photo but you get the idea

I just gotta get all this junk up on the wall

fur biscuit
11-12-2007, 03:16 PM
Got my old brain working today :)

Remember that somewhere in this mess was an original Gurney Nutting

Napier record car design

This done for Messrs Thomson & Taylor

Sorry for the bad photo but you get the idea

I just gotta get all this junk up on the wall

yeah, hurry up and get all the stuff hung up! except that old one with the little white 2 seater that looks like it has an upside down boat stuck on it's nose. It would look much better here in california. :D

Bluto
11-12-2007, 03:37 PM
It's not white mine is silver packed away like so many things

This one isn't mine I lifted this off his sight

I think Fredd still has some. I got mine when there were several to choose from

He's a really good guy and does wonderful stuff.

here's his website....... look at all-0-it

http://www.fredd-kustom.com/fr/home.php

A4ord
11-12-2007, 03:50 PM
If you want to read all about big engines/small cars get Brooklands Giants by Bill Boddy,isbn 1 84425 315 5,has heaps of aero engined and big motored cars.E.G. 300hp Fiat,28.4 ltr ohc 4valve engine, 4cylinder built for an airship in 1910.Eventually timed at 132.37mph in 1913.Last heard of in Mexico during the 1920's.The Napier-Railton was used to test the first aircraft tail parachutes in the early '50's. There is so many of these cars still around to see,it amazing they survived the punishment they received.Keep on roddin'.

SteveLines
11-13-2007, 12:47 PM
A few more cool images: -

Duncan Pittaway in his OX-5 powered GN

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/aIMG_2666-mod.jpg

Mark Walker in his twin cylinder powered GN

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/aIMG_5140-mod.jpg

(Images by www.edgephotographic.co.uk (http://www.edgephotographic.co.uk))

Bigcheese327
11-13-2007, 01:55 PM
Those are gorgeous, which is amazing considering how busy they are. Funny how those look good but I can't stand Moal creations. Maybe if he painted more stuff black instead of polishing it, he could capture that look.

-Dave

scootermcrad
11-13-2007, 02:11 PM
There is some AMAZING things in this thread!! WOW!! Trully inspirational!!

Bluto
11-13-2007, 02:17 PM
PERSPIRATIONAL!!! :eek:

Blackie
11-13-2007, 02:45 PM
A few more cool images: -

Duncan Pittaway in his OX-5 powered GN

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/aIMG_2666-mod.jpg

Mark Walker in his twin cylinder powered GN

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/aIMG_5140-mod.jpg

(Images by www.edgephotographic.co.uk (http://www.edgephotographic.co.uk))


I think i saw the one in the top image in a magazine once... Check out the crash - only a broken collarbone according to the post - lucky!

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LATwSlHdiPY&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LATwSlHdiPY&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Bluto
11-13-2007, 03:16 PM
I must say hats off to the two driver that stopped and added aid at the right moment...... could have been worse........... MUCH WORSE!!

kvisser
11-13-2007, 06:21 PM
That is some scary stuff to be doing without any real roll bars. Do they even wear seat belts? He flopped right out of that car. Lucky dude not to be paralyzed.

Those guys are hanging hanging their tails out on those turns! It must be fun, dancing on the knife's edge.

wow

ken

Cris
11-14-2007, 10:40 PM
Biscuit, that photo of Soichiro is awesome.

Old photo of an older boat with an even older engine. George Johnson, RIP.

http://www.auto-grafik.com/blogphotos/L1020424.jpg

Cris

fur biscuit
11-15-2007, 01:29 AM
I must say hats off to the two driver that stopped and added aid at the right moment...... could have been worse........... MUCH WORSE!!


Mr. Bluto,

would the ass out handling be associated with the narrow rear track and solid rear drives (don't GN's lack a diff?) cause those rear ends slide something fierce. Also you wouldn't happen to have a picture or diagram of the drive set up on one would you. I think it would be something everyone would get a kick out of.

fur biscuit
11-15-2007, 01:33 AM
Biscuit, that photo of Soichiro is awesome.

Cris


another crazy guy from over there was the founder of Arai used to ride his harley by standing on the handle bars amongst other tricks.

model.A.keith
11-15-2007, 02:43 AM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/large_Williams1.jpg
/><O:p></O:p>
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/large_Williams9.jpg

Bluto
11-15-2007, 03:46 AM
Backin' into the turn is more a result of tires than anything else

There are some wonderful movies of the Auto Unions sideways thru the streets of Monaco .......... in one shot a car hops the curb.

I gotta think that was a moment for the car's driver

Remember too these cars really had no brakes.Sideways = slowdown. I drove an 30's two man Indy car several times road racing. Turn workers would run and hide till I'd gone by 'em sideways several laps.

In the case of the GN....... the driver should have let it go instead of correcting but it's really hard to keep your foot in it when everything is turning to shit. It's really easy to say and see without being in the middle of the moment

Mercmad
11-15-2007, 04:03 AM
Bluto..Hi!, the GN's were originally a Cylce car,the bare basic motor car for the masses powered by v twin and driven with a belt...!
because of the light weight and negligible value they were seriously popular as the basis for specials and I am sure none had any sort of diff,you steer with the throttle not the steering wheel. Once you're sliding it's pretty easy to keep the slide going exactly where you want by giving it a'boot full' .
If you spent a A day at Prescott would see all manner of specials absolutely flogged up the hill .I'd never realised a Austin 7 could be made to scream like a two stroke motorbike...LOL!.
I've never driven a GN but i've had a good go in a Frazer Nash with chain drive and the driving technique is the same,approach the corner turn in hard to get the back stepping out ,with out lifting off and let it drift through the turn while carefuly turning into the slide to keep a hand on it...
today they have slower version called Drifting.:D

fur biscuit
11-15-2007, 12:17 PM
Backin' into the turn is more a result of tires than anything else

There are some wonderful movies of the Auto Unions sideways thru the streets of Monaco .......... in one shot a car hops the curb.

I gotta think that was a moment for the car's driver

Remember too these cars really had no brakes.Sideways = slowdown. I drove an 30's two man Indy car several times road racing. Turn workers would run and hide till I'd gone by 'em sideways several laps.

In the case of the GN....... the driver should have let it go instead of correcting but it's really hard to keep your foot in it when everything is turning to shit. It's really easy to say and see without being in the middle of the moment

it just seemed to be a common occurence with GN's. Or maybe the guys all just like hangin the arse end nice and wide.

SteveLines
05-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I thought you guys might like to see the latest aero engined racer to emerge in the UK.

It is called the "Amilcar Hispano" and has a 1916 Hispano Suiza V8 aeroplane engine mounted in a 1930 French Amilcar chassis frame. Drive to the rear axle is by chains. Only two speeds are needed because of the immense torque the engine puts out.

You wouldn't believe how quick this is!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/IM004053.jpg

jimdillon
05-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Pretty cool Steve, sitting behind all that noise at speed would be a hoot-Jim

Mac the Yankee
05-07-2008, 12:19 PM
what?!:d:d:d

Ryan
01-20-2009, 03:18 PM
Wow... How in the hell did I miss this thread!!?!?!?!?!?!

scootermcrad
01-20-2009, 03:23 PM
Wow... How in the hell did I miss this thread!!?!?!?!?!?!
That's a damn good question man! :rolleyes::D

Tman
01-20-2009, 03:30 PM
Wow... How in the hell did I miss this thread!!?!?!?!?!?!

Because the thread was pre-op?

Flipper
01-20-2009, 03:45 PM
I thought you guys might like to see the latest aero engined racer to emerge in the UK.

It is called the "Amilcar Hispano" and has a 1916 Hispano Suiza V8 aeroplane engine mounted in a 1930 French Amilcar chassis frame. Drive to the rear axle is by chains. Only two speeds are needed because of the immense torque the engine puts out.

You wouldn't believe how quick this is!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/IM004053.jpg

That thing looks MEAN!

bruce hylton
01-20-2009, 03:48 PM
Reminds me of some cartoons I saw as a kid.

fur biscuit
01-20-2009, 04:06 PM
Wow... How in the hell did I miss this thread!!?!?!?!?!?!

like so many others you were probably thinking of dueces and red wheels instead of true perversion. :D

noboD
01-20-2009, 05:07 PM
You guys just keep picking at scabs all the time don't you? These things are wicked and I don't have one.

The_Monster
01-20-2009, 05:15 PM
wow, what a great thread! Not sure how I stumbled onto this one, but I love these cars! Sound awesome too!

donrodin
01-20-2009, 05:34 PM
Wow!!!

fur biscuit
01-20-2009, 10:17 PM
I thought you guys might like to see the latest aero engined racer to emerge in the UK.

It is called the "Amilcar Hispano" and has a 1916 Hispano Suiza V8 aeroplane engine mounted in a 1930 French Amilcar chassis frame. Drive to the rear axle is by chains. Only two speeds are needed because of the immense torque the engine puts out.

You wouldn't believe how quick this is!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/IM004053.jpg

finally got home from work and can see the picture...holy shit stains batman!!!!!

The37Kid
01-20-2009, 10:39 PM
You guys just keep picking at scabs all the time don't you? These things are wicked and I don't have one.


Doug, Next time you are at headquarters ask Steve to show you the copy of that 1923 Pottstown, Pa. racecar lineup. On the far right is a 1908 Mercedes with the same type Hisso V8. Car went back to Germany about 5-6 years ago for a correct 1908 restoration. A total mistake IMO. If you go to the HISSO RACE CAR website and search for Larry Beals the car will pop up, along with many other great HISSO powered cars.

Unkl Ian
01-20-2009, 10:47 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2730787711_30c5a75c43.jpg?v=0

noboD
01-20-2009, 11:02 PM
Doug, Next time you are at headquarters ask Steve to show you the copy of that 1923 Pottstown, Pa. racecar lineup. On the far right is a 1908 Mercedes with the same type Hisso V8. Car went back to Germany about 5-6 years ago for a correct 1908 restoration. A total mistake IMO. If you go to the HISSO RACE CAR website and search for Larry Beals the car will pop up, along with many other great HISSO powered cars.

10-4, I need to bust his nuts anyway for coming up empty this weekend!

The37Kid
01-20-2009, 11:04 PM
10-4, I need to bust his nuts anyway for coming up empty this weekend!


Did you have lunch yet? How'd it go? :D

noboD
01-20-2009, 11:07 PM
Nope, I'm scared.

Kiwi Tinbender
01-20-2009, 11:22 PM
Great thread, guys. Hopefully a Kiwi will chime in with some pics of the Ralph Watson built Lycoming Special...was a standout for a long time in the Fifties and Sixties in New Zealand circuit racing....beautiful car...

88daryl88
01-21-2009, 01:15 AM
<cite>I'm not a Kiwi, but found this with Google

ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/lycoming.html

He was Very Very, Clever. Check out the "Watson Link" for rear axle location

& the Ford V8 diff centre and the modified Studebaker gearbox for traditional hot-rod cred.
</cite>

Flipper
01-21-2009, 06:55 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2730787711_30c5a75c43.jpg?v=0

Wow. That car is a lot smaller than I first imagined. I though it was going to be huge. That looks like a halfway realistic car to drive.

fur biscuit
01-21-2009, 07:14 PM
Wow. That car is a lot smaller than I first imagined. I though it was going to be huge. That looks like a halfway realistic car to drive.

only half way? if I could just sit in the damned thing, I would make it my daily!

James D
01-22-2009, 05:20 AM
Recently built in Germany - and in the spirit of early racers...and probably simply to put such a wonderful old engine to some use. This thing has a 44litre BMW flying boat motor...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/picture-96.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/brutuscs2.jpg

Mac the Yankee
01-22-2009, 09:49 AM
Love the body- hate the grille.

raaf
01-22-2009, 03:30 PM
terrific stuff!

James D
01-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Again, not a racer - but this had a Rolls Merlin under the bonnet (yes bonnet - its a Rolls Royce!!) with three predator carbs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/RR1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/RR2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/RR3-1.jpg

zilly
01-22-2009, 04:00 PM
That is some scary stuff to be doing without any real roll bars. Do they even wear seat belts? He flopped right out of that car. Lucky dude not to be paralyzed.

Those guys are hanging hanging their tails out on those turns! It must be fun, dancing on the knife's edge.

wow

ken

dont normally have seat belt as the seat belt is going to aid in killing when you roll. Same theory as a kart, when there is no roll bar last thing you want it not to be able to fall out as the first point of impact when your heading to the floor will be your head resulting in a very broken spine

345 DeSoto
01-22-2009, 04:33 PM
Does THIS count?...

Mac the Yankee
01-22-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm really surprised that this basic concept didn't show up in Deathrace 2000...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=582807&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1232663602 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=582807&d=1232663602)

model.A.keith
01-22-2009, 04:55 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2730787711_30c5a75c43.jpg?v=0


was this picture taken at Prescott ??

model.A.keith
01-22-2009, 05:00 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/large_Williams4.jpg

alsancle
01-23-2009, 09:07 PM
Here is a link to this thing running:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwOomfZ-hfM&feature=related


Recently built in Germany - and in the spirit of early racers...and probably simply to put such a wonderful old engine to some use. This thing has a 44litre BMW flying boat motor...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/picture-96.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Jameshdeath/brutuscs2.jpg

Mac the Yankee
01-23-2009, 09:40 PM
alsancle,

Thanks for the link- I looked at some of the other videos... they should have left it uncorked :eek:!

Unkl Ian
02-03-2009, 11:40 PM
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/PP1.jpg

Supposed to be a Piccard Pictet.

Unkl Ian
02-03-2009, 11:41 PM
I never get tired of looking at this one:

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg

More pics here:
http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/?start=80

Unkl Ian
02-03-2009, 11:55 PM
was this picture taken at Prescott ??
These were taken at Prescott:

Amilcar Hispano special 11760cm3 !!
http://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/12/91/39/04/dsc05010.jpg



GN JAP grand prix, 5112cm3, chassis 1908,motor 1919
http://i51.servimg.com/u/f51/12/91/39/04/dsc05011.jpg

More Prescott pics here:
http://tricyclecaristes.forumr.net/photos-f11/prescott-hillclimb-t197.htm

Unkl Ian
02-04-2009, 12:04 AM
10 Liter Austin
http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-shelsley/26.jpg

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-shelsley/48.jpg

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-shelsley/45.jpg

27 Liter V12 Hispano aero engine:
http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-shelsley/85.jpg

More pics here:
http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/shelsley-walsh.htm

docc
02-04-2009, 12:10 AM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/docc48/2133615510_61435a770f.jpg
1935 Monaco Trossi aero engined GP Car
16 cyl. 2 stroke (3982cc) Each of the 8 "blocks" had 2 cylinders with common combustion chambers...intake at the rear with 2 Zoller Superchargers, and the exhaust to the front with a 4 pipe collector leading to each side of the car.

Has to be my favorite..

Unkl Ian
02-04-2009, 12:17 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2181/2072026366_792b1d5a60.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2316/2072026866_37c511e3d1.jpg?v=0

Unkl Ian
02-04-2009, 12:18 AM
Napier aircraft engine powered

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1337102538_b13f333a6c.jpg?v=0
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1337102538_b13f333a6c.jpg?v=0)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1141/1337102548_1d058955bc.jpg?v=0

docc
02-04-2009, 12:19 AM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/docc48/2224084504_6e9b95c68f.jpg
Higham Special or Babs 27-litre Liberty aero-engined racer as raced by Parry Thomas, who was killed driving this car whilst atempting land speed record.
<NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT><!-- ############## COMMENTS -->

docc
02-04-2009, 12:24 AM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/docc48/2221040918_a112439fcf.jpg
1922 Leylat

Unkl Ian
02-04-2009, 12:27 AM
"Babs": 27 Liter Liberty powered
http://www.jamd.com/image/g/80041225

docc
02-04-2009, 12:28 AM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/docc48/2132848977_4ae976e725.jpg
Imagine seeing this in your mirrors...:eek:

Or hearing 16 TWO stroke cylinders screaming at full song. Went 155MPH at Monaco..but handling was an issue

1952henry
02-04-2009, 12:30 AM
By popular request, as an offshoot of the Vintage Bugatti thread here's one dedicated to aero-engined vintage racing cars.

A few from the UK to kick things off!

GN JAP

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN3.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN4.jpg

Vauxhall Viper

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/Viper3.jpg

Picard Pictet

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/PP1.jpg

Among other things, the copper manifolds are eye candy!

McKee
02-04-2009, 01:32 AM
1910 "Biltzen Benz" with I think an Aero engine or at least an Aero derived engine,...over 125 MPH in 1910!,...fasted vehicle on the planet!,...1,300 cube 4 banger!

Unkl Ian
02-04-2009, 01:34 AM
1,300 cube 4 banger!

And a hand crank. :eek:
Imagine trying to turn that over.

Cris
02-04-2009, 06:06 AM
Ian, what is the car next to the Pic Pic?

Thanks for all the photos.

Cris

Dirtynails
02-04-2009, 07:37 AM
How about a Aero engined motorcycle?
Lucky Kiezer built this years ago from two cylinders cut from the end of a Rolls Royce merlin. I watched lucky trying to run the engine on the salt in a stramliner back in 1998 but it wouldn't run right. It worked better in the bike frame,5000 CC'S!!!!
http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/rrfulls.jpg

Dirtynails
02-04-2009, 07:43 AM
http://thekneeslider.com/images/merlinvtwin.jpg
Heres the engine,yes it was blown,at one point it had TWO 1000 CFM carbs! ,then nitrous.:eek::eek:
It was advertised for sale a few years back. i don't know if it were sold or not,i haven't seen lucky for a few years.
Engine: The two end cylinders off a Rolls Royce Merlin 24litre V12 aero engine. Originally fitted to a Mosquito bomber. Making a special new crank for it took 300 hours.
Gearbox: 3 speed Holden car gearbox and engine speed clutch. Air operated.
Rear drive: Big Chain.
Frame: One off construction using engine as stressed member.
Wheels:Front: Suzuki GS1100G.
Back: Big drag slick.
Electrics: Unknown.
Starting: DC3Aero starter operated by assistant.

ehdubya
02-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Great thread, guys. Hopefully a Kiwi will chime in with some pics of the Ralph Watson built Lycoming Special...was a standout for a long time in the Fifties and Sixties in New Zealand circuit racing....beautiful car...

Synonymous with the Gypsy Major powered Stanton Special, they're probably both running today at the Skope Classic at Ruapuna.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=593922&d=1233881921

New Zealand National Speed Records (as at May 1964)
Flying Start Kilometre Sprint
Class B 5,000 to 8,000 c.c. M. F. Stanton (Stanton Special)
1287 sec. 1738 m.p.h.
1958

Standing Start Kilometre Sprint
Class B 5,000 to 8,000 c.c. M. F. Stanton (Stanton Special)
2313 sec. 967 m.p.h.
1960

Standing Start Quarter-mile Sprint
Class B 5,000 to 8,000 c.c. M. F. Stanton (Stanton Special)
1242 sec. 7246 m.p.h.
1958

How about aussie Wizard Smith's car that made a LSR attempt at Ninety Mile Beach NZ in 1932, not sure if it was a Rolls or Napier powered or both.

The37Kid
02-05-2009, 07:32 PM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=592378&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1233732692 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=592378&d=1233732692) I believe there were 4 Blitzen Benz race cars built, if you scroll back up to the photo of Babs the transaxle in that car came from one of the parted out Blitzen Benz.

Bobby Green
02-05-2009, 07:50 PM
This is one of my all time favorite threads.

rick finch
02-05-2009, 08:05 PM
You got that shit right Bobby! Wow, some really cool stuff, thanks.:cool:

fur biscuit
02-05-2009, 09:33 PM
1910 "Biltzen Benz" with I think an Aero engine or at least an Aero derived engine,...over 125 MPH in 1910!,...fasted vehicle on the planet!,...1,300 cube 4 banger!

that car is a repro, a recreation...just so it doesn't accidently get passed of as "original"

There were 4 Benz aero engined racers, of which there are no intact survivors...though there is a repro? in the Mercedes Museum, then there is a gentleman in Oregon who has spent a great number of years collecting Pre-WW1 race cars, who has what appears to be one of the cars that was rebodied with a touring, which was run at Brooklands in said guise. The car in the pictures was "created" in San Diego out parts acquired from the Mercedes factory.

Kiwi Tinbender
02-05-2009, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the Stanton pics.....saw that at the Beach Races in Nelson when I was a kid....Charlie Benseman drove it, and I seem to remember he took the Gypsy Moth out and put a Smallblock Chevy in it.....It is in the Beach Race Book by Mike Stephens, if any of you Kiwiis have this, it is a cool book, brought back lots of memories for me. I think my first Beach Racing experience must have been 62 or 63....

Kiwi Tinbender
02-05-2009, 10:04 PM
I happened to see the Mercedes that the Gentleman from Oregon has when it was in a friends Shop to be re-bodied....The double Chain drive transmission was hand built and a work of Art.....Should have been as the price tag for it was reputed to be $70k...

mctim64
02-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Here's a Rolls Royce powered Rolls Royce we saw at Pebbel Beach last year.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5075&pictureid=47175
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=5075&pictureid=47174

The37Kid
02-06-2009, 01:55 AM
I happened to see the Mercedes that the Gentleman from Oregon has when it was in a friends Shop to be re-bodied....The double Chain drive transmission was hand built and a work of Art.....Should have been as the price tag for it was reputed to be $70k...

He had the car at Hershey 2-3 years ago, looked like a great road car. Really nice guy with some truely great cars that everyone looks forward to seeing every October.

speedtool
02-06-2009, 03:39 PM
Has anyone mentioned the "Mormon Meteor lll" that Ab Jenkins ran out on the salt setting record after record? It had a Liberty aircraft engine.

http://www.pricemuseumofspeed.org/ - watch the video.

ehdubya
02-06-2009, 05:24 PM
I found some Wizard Smith Enterprise pics and seem to remember reading something like the backer got the Australian defence minister to lean on the brits for a schneider cup napier and there was some disagreement with designer Don Harkness over the change from the Rolls, whatever it gained an awkward nose appendage.

Wizard' Smith's 'Enterprise', Sydney, 4 August 1931 : mit der svelt snoz

http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=52363

Fred H Stewart Enterprise 90 mile beach

http://timeframes.natlib.govt.nz/logicrouter/servlet/LogicRouter?PAGE=object&OUTPUTXSL=object.xslt&pm_RC=REPO02DB&pm_OI=32138&pm_GT=Y&pm_IAC=Y&api_1=GET_OBJECT_XML&num_result=66&Object_Layout=viewimage_object

Norman Smith 1932

http://timeframes.natlib.govt.nz/logicrouter/servlet/LogicRouter?PAGE=object&OUTPUTXSL=object.xslt&pm_RC=REPO02DB&pm_OI=59702&pm_GT=Y&pm_IAC=Y&api_1=GET_OBJECT_XML&num_result=83&Object_Layout=viewimage_object

Norman 'Wizard' Smith and Don Harkness in the car Anzac, Ninety Mile Beach.[ca 22 Jan 1930]

http://timeframes.natlib.govt.nz/logicrouter/servlet/LogicRouter?PAGE=object&OUTPUTXSL=object.xslt&pm_RC=REPO02DB&pm_OI=32311&pm_GT=Y&pm_IAC=Y&api_1=GET_OBJECT_XML&num_result=331&Object_Layout=viewimage_object

Racing car Enterprise; Norman 'Wizard' Smith; Ninety Mile Beach.[ca 1932]

http://timeframes.natlib.govt.nz/logicrouter/servlet/LogicRouter?PAGE=object&OUTPUTXSL=object.xslt&pm_RC=REPO02DB&pm_OI=32345&pm_GT=Y&pm_IAC=Y&api_1=GET_OBJECT_XML&num_result=446&Object_Layout=viewimage_object



Ralph Watson's Lycoming Spl LeMans start Ardmore 9 Jan 1960

http://timeframes.natlib.govt.nz/logicrouter/servlet/LogicRouter?PAGE=object&OUTPUTXSL=object.xslt&pm_RC=REPO02DB&pm_OI=83726&pm_GT=Y&pm_IAC=Y&api_1=GET_OBJECT_XML&num_result=242&Object_Layout=viewimage_object


I couldn't imagine what this was when I heard it coming up the drive and saw this Curtis appear at the window with it's smoking headers. It's a DeDion with a packard transaxle my brother was delivering to a race meet down south, he said it was a bit of a handful at the 100kph speed limit.

leon renaud
02-06-2009, 06:33 PM
That is some scary stuff to be doing without any real roll bars. Do they even wear seat belts? He flopped right out of that car. Lucky dude not to be paralyzed.

Those guys are hanging hanging their tails out on those turns! It must be fun, dancing on the knife's edge.

wow

kenI don't want to argue this point but my dad drove sprints and midgets right after WWII up to late in the 53 season.I asked him about seat belts and in the early days he said most drivers preffered NOT to be belted in!When he first used a belt it was up around his chest !He said that it helped him with steering the car this was before roll bars.Almost all the early drivers he knew felt that being thrown clear of the car was an advantage in a crash.Like I said this isn't my thoughts on it but lots of old drivers.

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:42 PM
George Wingards "Blitzen Benz"

http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2008/08/12/wingard.jpg

As it is today:

http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/media/580x348/2b/2b6ab5609f7e4f77b51fe4e60330cf94.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:46 PM
something with a really, really long engine...

http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/media/580x348/02/021a0452bad840a3a544fcfd43566036.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:47 PM
Silly Italians and thier slow speed motors...FIAT S91

http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/media/580x348/69/6999775e77a54436afd9912944c5fb90.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:48 PM
v8 Darracq:

http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/media/580x348/0b/0b22995b273e440d9044e449d3d277a9.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:53 PM
Not Aero engined, but still bloody large, FIAT S74:

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Fiat/11-Fiat_S74_Racer_DV-07-PB_011.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:54 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Fiat/11-Fiat_S74_Racer_DV-07-PB_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:56 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/1908-Benz-120-hp-01-800.jpg

fur biscuit
02-08-2009, 11:57 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/1908-Benz-120-hp-04-800.jpg

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 12:35 AM
Norman Wizard Smith actually had more than one attempt on New Zealand's Ninety Mile beach. I own a property there and several relatives ( long dead now ) had stories of the attempt. Steve Simpson,A neighbour who had been a Journo with Oz's 'Wheels' magazine spoke to as many of these people as he could and published the only full account of his exploits back in the 70's .. It also helped that steve knew Don Harkness and had briefly met Wizard Smith,One of OZ's true motoring pioneers.
You can buy a copy on the bay here..
http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Real-Story-Wizard-Smith-Simpson-Steve_W0QQitemZ140295372840QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_N on_Fiction_Books_2?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 02:01 AM
This is a really old pic(95 years) that i have so it didn't scan too well. it's Ralph Depalma in a car he bought from Germany just for the 1914 indy race . it was powered by a Mercedes 6 cylinder 75/80 HP aero engine.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma244.jpg

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 02:15 AM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/1908-Benz-120-hp-01-800.jpg

A Mercedes 'Dieppe Grandprix type' car ,pic taken in the USA in 1948. I wonder this is Now?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma248.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 09:32 AM
This is a really old pic(95 years) that i have so it didn't scan too well. it's Ralph Depalma in a car he bought from Germany just for the 1914 indy race . it was powered by a Mercedes 6 cylinder 75/80 HP aero engine.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma244.jpg

I think that is backwards, the Aero Engine was developed from or inconjuntion with the '14 GP engine, which was the '13 GP engine with 2 cylinders lopped off, to meet the displacement requirements.

One of the '14 GP cars ends up in England at a Mercedes dealership in London. At the out break of the warit was requisitioned by the English Gov't. The car was torn down and studied an the engine was used in developement of the English Aero engines. One of the men involved in the "disection" was W.O. Bentley. This engine becomes the basis for all subsequent SOHC Bentley's after the war, most famously the 3 litre.

jimdillon
02-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Without looking at my notes I may be off but I thought the German fighter planes had six cylinder inline aero engines and believed they were very similar to the 1913 GP engines. The 1914 engines you are correct had two cylinders lopped off to meet the new displacement requirements. Things may have been different had it not been for the unfortunate demise of the Archduke.

The DePalma car pictured was his anticipated ride for Indy in 1914 but it had some real vibration problems (at least that is what I saw reported). It was a unique car for the new aerodynamics but the chain drive was a bit archaic.
I often wondered what happened to the car.

As to the 1908 GP Merc above I thought that was the car that George Wingard restored some time ago (as well as the big red Fiat).

You have to hand it to George as he has had the best prewar racecars of anyone I can think of.Jim

hugh m
02-09-2009, 01:13 PM
the Howe Hisso...and John Gerber above

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/furbiscuit/OldPics001.jpg
Really neat thread. Johnny Gerber, shown above in this photo, as a footnote, surely deserves his own thread...He beat the best with that little car, and at the very least, thought outside the box.

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 07:44 PM
Without looking at my notes I may be off but I thought the German fighter planes had six cylinder inline aero engines and believed they were very similar to the 1913 GP engines. The 1914 engines you are correct had two cylinders lopped off to meet the new displacement requirements. Things may have been different had it not been for the unfortunate demise of the Archduke.

The DePalma car pictured was his anticipated ride for Indy in 1914 but it had some real vibration problems (at least that is what I saw reported). It was a unique car for the new aerodynamics but the chain drive was a bit archaic.
I often wondered what happened to the car.

As to the 1908 GP Merc above I thought that was the car that George Wingard restored some time ago (as well as the big red Fiat).

You have to hand it to George as he has had the best prewar racecars of anyone I can think of.Jim

Apparently George Wingard used to put out a calendar annually with his cars and other Pre-WW1 racecars in it. I would really, really, really like to find a copy.

jimdillon
02-09-2009, 07:59 PM
"really like to find a copy"-So would I- his workmanship and cars are second to none-Jim

The37Kid
02-09-2009, 08:04 PM
Apparently George Wingard used to put out a calendar annually with his cars and other Pre-WW1 racecars in it. I would really, really, really like to find a copy.


George Wingard does have the best Pre World War ONE race car collection, and is a true gentleman/car nut, seeing what he brings to Hershey every year is a highlight of the event. One year in the early 1980's he had the above mentioned Mercedes GP car, or a twin to it that he looped on a wet parking lot on Run in Day. Real crowd pleaser, but I found out later it sure wasn't a planed event. :eek:

racinman
02-09-2009, 08:08 PM
That is soooo neat... of course I like the old vintage racers

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:26 PM
sorry this is kinda turning into large bore racing cars as opposed to aero engined specials...

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/classic-car-images/pluck.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:30 PM
a few repeats...

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/010-04

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:30 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/464660/Count_Zborowski_With_Chitty_Bang_Bang_1_At_Brookla nds.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:30 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/464660/b241.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:30 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/Chitty.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:31 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/464660/file.php.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:32 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/Fiat-F2-07%20.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:32 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/Fiat-F2-08.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 08:33 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/Fiat-F2-03.jpg

jimdillon
02-09-2009, 08:43 PM
Hey FB the Count Zaborowski Chitty Chitty Bang Bang cars are also a crowd pleaser. What a ride they must have been. Is my memory correct and didn't that car have one of the Blitzen Benz altered chassis and drive gear as well (besides Babs)? Your post #166 appears to be Fisher's Premier at Indy with the pagoda in the distance. A pretty cool OHC car but not quite an aero engine.

What's the story on the #14 car, nice long hood?-Jim

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 09:37 PM
What's the story on the #14 car, nice long hood?-Jim

Mephistopheles...:D

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:04 PM
http://www.sandspeedwales.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/Chitty~Chitty~Bang~Bang.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:05 PM
great site:

www.sandspeedwales.co.uk/<WBR> (http://www.sandspeedwales.co.uk/5907.html)

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:06 PM
http://www.sandspeedwales.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/Napier-Railton-Cobb-posed-hangers-39-35a.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:09 PM
http://www.chitty.org.uk/Real%20chitty%20bang%20bang.jpg

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 10:30 PM
Without looking at my notes I may be off but I thought the German fighter planes had six cylinder inline aero engines and believed they were very similar to the 1913 GP engines. The 1914 engines you are correct had two cylinders lopped off to meet the new displacement requirements. Things may have been different had it not been for the unfortunate demise of the Archduke.

The DePalma car pictured was his anticipated ride for Indy in 1914 but it had some real vibration problems (at least that is what I saw reported). It was a unique car for the new aerodynamics but the chain drive was a bit archaic.
I often wondered what happened to the car.

As to the 1908 GP Merc above I thought that was the car that George Wingard restored some time ago (as well as the big red Fiat).

You have to hand it to George as he has had the best prewar racecars of anyone I can think of.Jim

The owner of the car ( Dieppe Grand Prix type ) in the black and white pic I scanned was Mr George Waterman at the time that pic was taken around 1948. Although it looks similar to the car in the color photo it's engine was completely different. The engine in Mr Watermans car was a cross flow design ( i have pictures somewhere..:rolleyes:) with carburetor next to the steering column and the exhaust on the other. The White car has the intake mounted under the exhaust.
This is the car that had the four cylinder engine Number 28.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma246.jpg
And it's classicly lovely engine.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma247.jpg

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:41 PM
The owner of the car ( Dieppe Grand Prix type ) in the black and white pic I scanned was Mr George Waterman at the time that pic was taken around 1948. Although it looks similar to the car in the color photo it's engine was completely different. The engine in Mr Watermans car was a cross flow design ( i have pictures somewhere..:rolleyes:) with carburetor next to the steering column and the exhaust on the other. The White car has the intake mounted under the exhaust.
This is the car that had the four cylinder engine Number 28.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Depalma246.jpg
And it's classicly lovely engine.


That would be one of the 4 team cars from that year. With out checking it is Lautenshlagers car that won that year.

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 10:53 PM
it was suggested above that W.O Bentley had copied the design, in fact he did not. A bentley engine is completely different in design ,especially the cam drive which is a couple of rods on the front of the engine.
The actual story is more interesting. In 1913 , before the outbreak of WW1 the Germans were racing in France,That had a team of Four cars.
It was well known the Germans had a very special engine in their aircraft but it's appearance and method of construction were tottaly secret. It had become known that the four cylinder race engine was derived from the aircraft engine,so by means of subterfuge 2 cars were Secured and held long enough to examine the engines before they could be returned to Germany,thus the entire thinking of the liberty engine ,the Rolls royce V12 and the italian aircraft engines,etc all benefitted from this as it was realised that the waterjackets and so on were all welded construction .As pictured in my previous post it can be seen that the four seperate cylinders welded steel contruction,with sixteen valves operated by overhead cams with two magneto's supplying spark to four plugs per cylinder. the engine displaced 270.9 cubic inch.
Unlike the Single overhead cam Bentley mentioned before,the Mercedes had a shaft driven cam on the rear of the engine close to flywheel .
The conrods were all tubular and at 3600 RPM developed 110 HP>.
The complete history of these tewo cars is unknown but eye witness reports suggest that Ralph DePalma wit assistance of his Friend Mr E C Patterson took one of the cars to the united States and a second was shipped to the mercedes dealers in London where it remained in hiding in a box until discovered by some Rolls Royce engineers.
The car Depalma Liberatred (number 28 above) was raced by him in 1915's Indy,which is Not the car I have pictured him in 1914,that car didn't even Qualify that year. That car ended up in the Packard plant and served as design for the 299 inch 12 cylinder racing car they produced in 1915.
they quickly built a second version of 905 cubic inch and the third version produced between 1916 -17 finally culminated in the Famous Liberty V12 Aero engine . It was considered unfortunate that the American designers chose to go with the single overhead cam rather than the twin cams of the original Mercedes design.

fur biscuit
02-09-2009, 10:58 PM
it was suggested above that W.O Bentley had copied the design, in fact he did not. A bentley engine is completely different in design ,especially the cam drive which is a couple of rods on the front of the engine.
The actual story is more interesting. In 1913 , before the outbreak of WW1 the Germans were racing in France,That had a team of Four cars.
It was well known the Germans had a very special engine in their aircraft but it's appearance and method of construction were tottaly secret. It had become known that the four cylinder race engine was derived from the aircraft engine,so by means of subterfuge 2 cars were Secured and held long enough to examine the engines before they could be returned to Germany,thus the entire thinking of the liberty engine ,the Rolls royce V12 and the italian aircraft engines,etc all benefitted from this as it was realised that the waterjackets and so on were all welded construction .As pictured in my previous post it can be seen that the four seperate cylinders welded steel contruction,with sixteen valves operated by overhead cams with two magneto's supplying spark to four plugs per cylinder. the engine displaced 270.9 cubic inch.
Unlike the Single overhead cam Bentley mentioned before,the Mercedes had a shaft driven cam on the rear of the engine close to flywheel .
The conrods were all tubular and at 3600 RPM developed 110 HP>.
The complete history of these tewo cars is unknown but eye witness reports suggest that Ralph DePalma wit assistance of his Friend Mr E C Patterson took one of the cars to the united States and a second was shipped to the mercedes dealers in London where it remained in hiding in a box until discovered by some Rolls Royce engineers.
The car Depalma Liberatred (number 28 above) was raced by him in 1915's Indy,which is Not the car I have pictured him in 1914,that car didn't even Qualify that year. That car ended up in the Packard plant and served as design for the 299 inch 12 cylinder racing car they produced in 1915.
they quickly built a second version of 905 cubic inch and the third version produced between 1916 -17 finally culminated in the Famous Liberty V12 Aero engine . It was considered unfortunate that the American designers chose to go with the single overhead cam rather than the twin cams of the original Mercedes design.

The Rolls Royce owners club just published a full run down on the 3 litre engine and it's lineage. Next time I am in San Diego I will go pull it.

Dirtynails
02-09-2009, 11:00 PM
An example of the ideas copied from the mercedes engine,this is a Rolls Kestral.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Mercedes%20Benz%20300%20SEL%2063/M100Rallye126.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Mercedes%20Benz%20300%20SEL%2063/M100Rallye129.jpg This belongs to famous car collector down here .

jimdillon
02-10-2009, 07:36 AM
Dirty nails, some time ago I went up to George Wingards house and photographed his 1914 GP Mercedes. There is no question that he has the #28 car. The museum at Stuttgart had their GP Mercedes carrying the #28 but George documented his and Stuttgart removed the numbers from theirs. I saw a number of the photos as found and went over his documentation and George is quite thorough. I was under the understanding that he had bought the George Waterman 1908 spare team car, although I cannot swear to that, but once again I thought that is what George Wingard told me.

As to the 1913 car that DePalma attempted to qualify at Indy in 1914 it was a failure as set up and experienced serious vibration probmes (at least my research shows that) and I never read about the car in that configuration again. Whether they morphed it into a car similar to the Pillette car is a likely scenario.

As to the car that DePalma brought over I have a number of references that DePalma bought the #40 Wagner car (and according to my grandfather who worked in the experimental department with DePalma on the development of the Liberty and the racecars he also brought back a spare engine or a bunch of spare parts approximating an engine). I have one reference though that places that in question but I cannot swear that reference is correct either. Mercedes raced three but had five 1914 GP Mercs and a few spare parts (engines) so who knows who's on first. The whereabout of DePalma's 1914 Mercedes is unknown, the last known owners of the car were Frank and Herbert Book. The Book brothers made what some people refer to as a Mercedes copy (the Detroit Special) which they kept and drove around the streets of Detroit on occasion until the mid thirties. In speaking to Herbert's widow, she knows they disposed of the 1914 Merc but she cannot remember exactly when and where- athough they may have off loaded it in California in 1920-where the trail has sadly run cold, (she gave me a couple of stories but she was in her eighties and remembered more than I would have expected- a grand lady).

The story of the development of the Liberty and DePalma and his Mercedes has fascinated me and put me on a quest that has lasted over 30 years. As a result I searched for years and finally bought the 299 Packard OHC 12 and pretty much know of the exploits of the 299 since they rolled DePalma's 1915 Indy winning (1914 GP Merc-prepared by Packard in the experimental department) into the experimental department and used it as an example of the development of the liberty. The 299 may not be the "classic" Twin cam design but it set many track and world's records and the railbirds prior to Indy called it the fastest car in America and until it suffered several setbacks in the 1919 Indy it ran away from the field (led pretty much during the first half of the race), finishing in 6th after changing a frozen wheel bearing and experiencing some valve problems. My grandfather Barney Pollard and his best friend Carl Smith were given the task of removing DePalma's 1914 GP Merc racing motor out of the racecar and place it on a jackstand as they called it to run the engine at various angles etc ( I recently met up with Carl Smith's great grandson who I met here on the HAMB-when he inquired if anyone had ever heard of his great -grandfather). I had a number of discussions with my grandfather about the racecars in the department including, of course DePalma's 14 GP Merc, Toodles V the 12 cylinder Sunbeam and the Twin Six racers (of which Packard "experts" for years told me did not exist but curiously one was found in the jungles of South America and has now been restored).

Could go on and on but had better get to work-Jim

ChevyGirlRox
02-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Wow, what a thread! The photos on it are top notch!

I was searching thru some old threads and came across this one. Nice to see it has had some life lately.

jimdillon- thanks for all of you insight!

Flipper
02-10-2009, 10:12 AM
An example of the ideas copied from the mercedes engine,this is a Rolls Kestral.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Mercedes%20Benz%20300%20SEL%2063/M100Rallye126.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Mercmad/Mercedes%20Benz%20300%20SEL%2063/M100Rallye129.jpg This belongs to famous car collector down here .

The air cooled patton tank motors (Blastolene Special) are laid out a whole lot like this motor.

speedtool
02-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Landspeed cars of old featured lots of aero-motors for power.
Here's the Mormon Meteor lll with Liberty engine.

http://artemis.crosslink.net/~gewhite/jenkinscoverforad2.jpg

Then there was Henry Seagrave's Golden Arrow
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/01/Henry%20Seagrave%20Irving-Napier%20Special%20Golden%20Arrow.jpg

Or any of Malcom Campbell's Bluebirds
http://www.landspeedproductions.biz/Art/Merchandise%20Art/m_campbell.jpg

leon renaud
02-10-2009, 09:43 PM
Landspeed cars of old featured lots of aero-motors for power.
Here's the Mormon Meteor lll with Liberty engine.

http://artemis.crosslink.net/%7Egewhite/jenkinscoverforad2.jpg

Then there was Henry Seagrave's Golden Arrow
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/01/Henry%20Seagrave%20Irving-Napier%20Special%20Golden%20Arrow.jpg

Or any of Malcom Campbell's Bluebirds
http://www.landspeedproductions.biz/Art/Merchandise%20Art/m_campbell.jpgI just saw a program where Campbells Bluebird boat and his body were recovered from a lake 35 years after his crash and death.

JeremyJames
02-10-2009, 10:05 PM
WOW!!!!! what an awesome thread !!!!

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:52 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/21-Mercedes_ChittyBang_Trr_DV-07-PB_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:53 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/21-MB_ChittyBB_DV-07-PB_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:53 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mercedes/21-MB_ChittyBB_DV-07-PB_001.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:55 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Benz/10_Blitzen_Benz_DV-07-PB_02.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:55 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Benz/10_Blitzen_Benz_DV-07-PB_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:56 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Sunbeam/25-Sunbeam_Tiger_SpdRcrd_DV-07-PB_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 10:56 PM
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Sunbeam/25-Sunbeam_Tiger_SpdRcrd_DV-07-PB_05.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:01 PM
CHITTY-BANG-BANG 1 1921

<!--keytext-->The first racing car of Count Louis
Zboroswki.Chitty 1, a chain-driven
lengthened Mercedes chassis with a 23
litre six cyinder Maybach aero engine.


http://www.higham-park.co.uk/l0100009.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:02 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2611388882_613f33a91e_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:06 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/2611206586_e12d771be6_o.jpg

Skotz
02-10-2009, 11:06 PM
wow! interesting thread . I have no clue what this is.
but the guy brought it from across the pond and showed up at the Kingsbury car show and fly in two year`s ago.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r265/hot_rod_artist/CA6J0HAN.jpg

What a cool post....some of these cars are fabulous.
I got a ride in the above speedster(chain drive and all) down at Kingsbury:D. I offered him a ride in a Stearman for a ride in his car.....said he was kind of scared of flying, or something like that, but he would take me for a ride......."flat out across the aerodrome:eek:".....spinning the tires all the way(with that chain down there, under us).....for such a low horsepower car, the torque was amazing.....Hell, flying is much safer than riding in this speedster.....I Loved it:D!!!!......and Thanks again for taking me around the patch, if you are reading this post.
Skot

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:06 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2610347131_4ab4c8e421_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:08 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2610351255_c6c09b2948_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:10 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2610344243_0d6395a741_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-10-2009, 11:12 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2610342151_3a4d141dc4_o.jpg

JaysinSpaceman
02-10-2009, 11:22 PM
This is amazing inspiration for four wheeled mayhem. If a fella was looking for and aero engine where might one start? Those early engines with their exposed pushrods and valve train are amazing.

Thanx to all of you who posted up pictures.

I REALLY need to build something like the very first car pictured in this post.

Thanx again
Jaysin

The37Kid
02-10-2009, 11:29 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2610342151_3a4d141dc4_o.jpg
Looks like a Christie Front Wheel Driver, car has cast bronze front wheels.:eek:

jimdillon
02-11-2009, 06:40 AM
I agree there are some great pics. FB you have dug up some really great pics. I agree with 37 on the Christie Front drive. With the front weight bias that must have been a handful to drive. I also really like the #8 car in post #200-appears to be Joe Dawson in the National. Great action shot. I will have to make some time and dig up a few pics myself. In the meantime keep up with the posts and pics- a great era-Jim

Dirtynails
02-11-2009, 07:21 AM
Jim,Thanks for the really interesting Reply.From what I understand,Ralph DePalma's 1914 car 'may' have been a twin to one that was run unsuccessfully in Germany in 1913 with the Aero 6 . Vibration causing major problems. They also had a twin throat carb,years before the idea caught on anywhere else.

have you ever spoken with the archive people at mercedes? . There's lots of stuff there in Stuttgart from Both Daimler and Benz ( for those who don't know,they were two seperate companies) but only those with something to offer get chance to really dig into the records.
What is really amazing is that so much stuff survived two World wars.

Regarding finding an old aircraft engine....good luck! . I know a guy who always wanted an aircraft engine to polish up and display in his house and ended up with a Tatra V8 . Interesting but not quite the same:D. I did know a guy some years ago who had made a hobby of collecting WW2 Daimler DB601 Aircraft engines ( I have pictures here of the car DB built with one in it for record braking but it was never run ...WW2 and all that ).Many are found where they crashed,many feet below ground. Finding an antique aero engine is an art in itself.
I always liked the look of Sydney Allards Steyr V8 engine..
http://image.hotrod.com/f/hot-rod-news/significant-historical-pre-war-racer/10890859+cr1+re0+ar1/vintage-steyr-allard.jpg
Not an aircraft engine but an aircooled armoured car engine.And for those who wondered,the previous pic was a Vuaxhall OHC...ha ha

model.A.keith
02-11-2009, 09:31 AM
Seen at Classic Le mans last year.


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans293.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans292.jpg

model.A.keith
02-11-2009, 09:38 AM
BABS

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Babs_crash_3.jpg

Mac the Yankee
02-11-2009, 09:59 AM
Looks like a Christie Front Wheel Driver, car has cast bronze front wheels.:eek:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2610342151_3a4d141dc4_o.jpg

Heavy:D!

CoalTownKid
02-11-2009, 06:44 PM
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/stevelines/GN1.jpg

My GOD! This is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy crap, its like 20,000 leagues under the sea meets 1920s racing! WOW!!!
I want to build one!!!!!!:eek:

CoalTownKid
02-11-2009, 06:56 PM
Lockhart's early rides were a bit Spartan.

Anymore photos of Lockhart's early ride there??? Very interested in it!!!

Fiorano
02-11-2009, 07:06 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2610344243_0d6395a741_o.jpg
what is that?
and does anyone know why the oldetimey pictures always have the cars leaning forward and the wheel all oval?:confused:

CoalTownKid
02-11-2009, 07:06 PM
the Howe Hisso...and John Gerber above

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/furbiscuit/OldPics001.jpg

I always loved this photo from when I first saw it,....
Very David and Goliath!

Go Johnny go! Kickin' ass with a pea-shooter!

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 07:17 PM
what is that?
and does anyone know why the oldetimey pictures always have the cars leaning forward and the wheel all oval?:confused:

The car is a National. The reason for the picture being the way it is, is from the Camera. Early camera's shutters go from right to left, rather than close concentrically. Which leads to the look of "speed" due to the shutter following the movement of the subject and a else appears to be static (normal).

doctorZ
02-11-2009, 07:46 PM
this is the raddest thread in a long time. i just went page by page through the whole thing and have had to change my pants three times so far ...
-drZ

brg404
02-11-2009, 07:57 PM
what is that?
and does anyone know why the oldetimey pictures always have the cars leaning forward and the wheel all oval?:confused:

The old cameras used slow shutter speeds (relative to today's cameras) and the shutters went from bottom-up. So, as the car was moving forward and the shutter was moving up, you get the forward slanting image effect.

Im sure someone can give a more precise explanation, but thats what Ive been told...

ebtm3
02-11-2009, 08:27 PM
Looks like a Christie Front Wheel Driver, car has cast bronze front wheels.:eek:

Don't think that that's a Christie- they were front wheel drive--all the dust is being kicked up by the back wheels- I may be wrong but------


Herb Kephart

ebtm3
02-11-2009, 08:32 PM
Fur Biscuit is right-the shutters were a silt in a fabric curtain which traveled horizontally. They are called "focal plane shutters"

Herb Kephart

CoalTownKid
02-11-2009, 09:02 PM
That is some scary stuff to be doing without any real roll bars. Do they even wear seat belts? He flopped right out of that car. Lucky dude not to be paralyzed.


It would have been worse with a seatbelt. he would have ended upside down IN the car when it came to rest. getting thrown from the car was probably the best thing for him.

Mac the Yankee
02-11-2009, 09:26 PM
Don't think that that's a Christie- they were front wheel drive--all the dust is being kicked up by the back wheels- I may be wrong but------


Herb Kephart

Take a look in the circle- I see some dust being kicked:D...

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:02 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2613256323_5562fe6723_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:03 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2614097924_f4a4e0c74f_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:05 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2610548281_78b8c6432a_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:06 PM
love the road conditions in the French Grand Prix...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3197/2613291047_225fe37cf8_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:09 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2615203610_f5d9b0e087_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:09 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3134/2615203852_3808bcba1f_o.jpg

jimdillon
02-11-2009, 10:10 PM
As to the Christie I believe the dirt is being kicked up by the front tires-not too many cars that were as ungamely as the Christie.

Although it is not an aero engine I still like Bowden's 120 hp (two 60 hp Mercedes engines in series-called the Flying Dutchman) at Ormond Daytona Beach in January 1905. A 60hp Mercedes was extremely fast in those days. Then the three cars at Sheepshead is DePalma in the #4 Packard 299 OHC 12, Louis Chevrolet in one of his great 1916 Frontenacs and Oldfield in the Miller Golden Sub. DePalma won all three match races on that day. The other picture at Sheepshead is DePalma in Toodles V, the 12 cylinder Sunbeam owned by Packard at this date in a match race with the Blitzen Benz. My mind is a blank as to the result on that day as to the victor although I believe it turned more into a publicity shot more than anything else.Shortly after this date the Adams Brothers bought both cars to set out on the match race circuit. Then DePalma at speed at Daytona in 1919 prior to his seting the land speed record with the 905 aero engine liberty. The other pic with the hood up is the 905 at Earl Anthony's California showroom with the original two man bodywork in 1917.-Jim
http://i44.tinypic.com/sljiir.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/szeux0.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ue1utg.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2hf750o.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/24o2cyf.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/spzleu.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:11 PM
not even close to aero...but it does have an engine...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2615264104_22a72d3163_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:12 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/2614243498_4e9cbb5bd4_o.jpg

Cshabang
02-11-2009, 10:14 PM
well I'm in lust haha Killer

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:19 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2613305163_d7492e7324_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:19 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2614131984_e0b0f30589_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:20 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2614138582_97f8192c32_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:20 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2613298629_cd695102da_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:22 PM
I have ridden in one of these...and they will go down the road at 75 mph

'03 Paris-Madrid DeDion

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2611205158_02177a878e_o.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:27 PM
Sir Malcom Campbell in a '12 GP Peugot

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/sir2.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:29 PM
http://germancarscene.com/wp-content/uploads/bluebird-13-11-06.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:31 PM
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n041927.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:34 PM
just cause I am stuck on Campbell...dig the garage...

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/360937/B-006

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:34 PM
tanks rule:

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/431238/1923_GPdeACF_TOURS_BUGATTI-32_FRIDERICH_02.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:36 PM
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/431238/1923_GPdeACF_TOURS_BUGATTI-32_MARCO_01.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:36 PM
detail children, note louvers

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/431238/1928_BUGATTI_CHIRON.jpg

Unkl Ian
02-11-2009, 10:38 PM
Imagine how much lift that Fiat "Tank" body generated at speed.

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:42 PM
Imagine how much lift that Fiat "Tank" body generated at speed.

Bugatti...:D

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:43 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/TommyMilton_Rc10432.jpg

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:44 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2614102358_628284d640_o.jpg

37Nash
02-11-2009, 10:45 PM
thank you so much to all that have contributed to this most wonderfull and precious thread. my personnal favorite is the Napier Rapier:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/D4lG0/NR.jpg
if i ever win the lotto, it's so going in a deuce streamliner

Dirtynails
02-11-2009, 10:46 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2614097924_f4a4e0c74f_o.jpg
I can't remember seeing this picture of Parry Thomas. Looks to have been taken outside R101's hanger too.

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:48 PM
one more FIAT

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/collections/stineman/images/91-18564-1945.jpg

retro54
02-11-2009, 10:52 PM
for those of you who would like to recreate these past racers... I think these guys could help you with anauthentic engine!....

One of my favorite websites of all time...


http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/mercedes-engine/mercedes-engine-restoration

fur biscuit
02-11-2009, 10:57 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2614097924_f4a4e0c74f_o.jpg
I can't remember seeing this picture of Parry Thomas. Looks to have been taken outside R101's hanger too.

it is quite a picture, I seem to have just been hitting paydirt on pics lately. Nice to see all 3 of his cars together.