Let's build a hypothetical engine ....On Topic....

[Roothawg]

I have always wondered what if the engineers at Chevrolet would have had the technology available that we have today. Such as, the Vortec head design.

Rashy and I discussed this a while back but I tire of his silliness.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have a 61 model 283 in my old 36 and it is tired.
What do you think the gas mileage , performance etc would be if it had the later vortec heads, lighter pistons, small lift cam of lets say .450 with a short duration around ummm 260. A 260H cam falls in there pretty close. Run the later Edelbrock RPM performer Air Gap, A MSD Hi output distributor. MAybe even step up to the 700R4 tranny with a decent gear, like a 3.55 or so. Single carb coming in around 650 cfm. Maybe even spring for the roller rocker arms to free up the friction end of it. Run a synthetic oil and the low octane unleaded fuel from any 7-11.

So what do you think? I really loathe the 350's, so figuring apples and oranges is out. I don't care about cubic inch per HP. I am looking at performance, gas mileage, driveability, cooling potential etc. Fire away.

[Roothawg]

Soory....I'll add a few things.

This is going in my PBR delivery truck with WWW tires and RED wheels that I will deliver to beer to VIVA LAS VEGAS and where I can listen to ROCABILLY music and maybe get myself another TATTOO.

[plan9]

combo seems right... vortec heads should be good for boosting torque, but you could loose the 650cfm carb and go with something smaller, if you are going for economy.

im not 100% sure, but arent roller rocker beneficial at high rpms? i dont think it will help with the economy...unless you want to tow, then maybe it would help out in the long run... should just go with a roller cam http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i put a 600 double pumper on my sbc, driver... had a lapse in better judgement... going to swap a quad on there when i get the chance

[av8]

This probably won't be much help, and certainly not what you're looking for because I, too, am brand new to the Vortec head. I had my first skull session with Vortecs just a week ago when my best pal asked me for suggestions about reworking the runners and bowls on the heads for a motor he'll be building over the winter for his roadster.

Before I did anything silly or stupid, I called expert porter Barry Gerolomy for some ground rules which came down to 'do very little.' The Vortecs are overall just about as good as one could hope for, in terms of kickass performance backed up with decent economy.

Like you, I'm not a fan of the 350, although I've built some very satisfying and successful 355s that kicked some stroker-motor ass; I like the 383s even less.

I'd give high marks to the Vortec head because there is so much more known about and applied in the manufacture of affordable high-flow, efficient heads. I can't imagine how they'd hurt the performance and economy of The True Smallblocks.

As for myself, I'll continue to search out and suitably modify 461 heads because, well, that's the way it's supposed to be done! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Seriously, Root, I hear what you're saying in terms of an all-around good-performing head. The early "fuelies" can be modified to make tons of horse pressure, but they're not gonna win an economy run.

So, nothing you already didn't know, but it was a good opportunity for nice share and a chat.

Mike

[jay]

What you need is a Dodge Big Block http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roothawg]

Dodge ...4 letter word.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Mike I have several sets of 461's,462's etc. but everything I have read pretty much says the bone stock Vortecs outflow the Doublehumps, even after porting and polishing. I hate to hear it but .....gotta go with the Vortecs. Plus for about the same money to overhaul the old 461's, I can buy a set of new assembled heads. I will always hang on to the old stuff because like you say...it's the wy it's supposed to be. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I just figure the performance deal has been hameered to death, now to try and get fuel mileage out of one.....

[AHotRod]

Put electronic ful injection and a computer on it and your all set.

[Fat Hack]

Probably a decent combo for a 283, although I suspect that the RPM Air-Gap manifold may be SLIGHTLY overkill for a 283 with the cam you specified. I'd stick to a factory 1967-69 Z28 302 dual plane intake (has an oil fill tube to look more period correct) for your project. If prices get to steep, Holley made a near-perfect copy of it for years...common fodder at swap meets for under $40 most times!

If you're thinking of the Competition Cams grinds, at least step up to one of their dual-pattern cams! Singlr pattern cams don't even belong in lawnmowers! Crane makes a few excellent grinds in the .450" lift range. Keep the duration @ .050" in the 222-226 degree range and you'll have a healthy thumper that's still street-friendly!

A pair of World Products (Dart) SR Torquer heads would be better than the Vortec castings in my opinion, but I don't know about valve clearance with the 283's bore. They work GREAT on bigger small blocks and are dirt cheap aftermarket iron heads. Just an idea.

Go with a 600cfm Holley vacuum secondaries carb. Lighten up the secondary spring and install a "green" accelerator pump cam with the stock discharge nozzles. This will work very well on a dual plane manifold with a hotter cam, and won't KILL your fuel economy, either! Use a decent mechanical fuel pump from Carter, or a good electric if you so choose. This motor will wind up quickly, and will need a good fuel supply, but no need to go overboard! Just run a decent pump with 3/8" lines and you'll be fine!

Get aggressive with the advance curve! Fast revving small blocks like a snappy curve to help them get into their "sweet spot" and make power quickly! Retain the vacuum advance for a street motor. Points or electronic, your choice...but I tend to run points most of the time myself...simple, effective and reliable!

Don't know all the specifics of your vehicle, but if using a 283 like we've outlined with an overdrive auto and modest rear gears, 16-20mpg is not out of the question. Performance will be on par with that of any small-cube mouse motor...which is to say pretty good for the dollars spent! Go for it!

[jay]

A four letter word for Dodge...FAST!! Have you run the MSD set up before Root?I'm having a real fun time trying to get my set up to run.It seems for some reason it likes to take out the box and swap polarity on the starter.ever run into any problems like this before?

[Terry]

I think F/H pretty much said it all. But I am a little confused on something...Why do you Loath the 350?

I had a 283 in my 37. None bored, stock short block, points, Headers, Edlebrock performer cam, and a 500cfm carb. I got 23mpg on the open road with a powerglide and 373 gears.

I don't loath 350s but I am building a 283 for the 36. GREAT motors. Just don't over cam, or over carb them.

Terry

[Bigcheese327]

Sorry to deviate just a bit here, but I was over at ChevyTalk in the classifieds section and is it just me or have 283s gotten kind of ridiculous? 327s I can understand, but a stock 2bbl motor out of an old Nova can't be that valuable, can it? Maybe those prices were skewed, though, since a lot of restorers hang out there.

[Roothawg]

I really just like the wee block motors 265,283 and 327's. That is what I had all through high school. I know the 350's are cheaper to build blah blah blah... but I just like the short stroke motors.

As far as the high end heads....this motor is gonna be a budget beater, that's why I picked the Vortecs. If I were gonna build a 406. I would pick a bigger runner.

Thanks...keep this one going.

[sawzall]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably a decent combo for a 283, although I suspect that the RPM Air-Gap manifold may be SLIGHTLY overkill for a 283 with the cam you specified. I'd stick to a factory 1967-69 Z28 302 dual plane intake (has an oil fill tube to look more period correct) for your project. If prices get to steep, Holley made a near-perfect copy of it for years...common fodder at swap meets for under $40 most times!

Don't know all the specifics of your vehicle, but if using a 283 like we've outlined with an overdrive auto and modest rear gears, 16-20mpg is not out of the question. Performance will be on par with that of any small-cube mouse motor...which is to say pretty good for the dollars spent! Go for it!

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm not on vortec heads you will not.. remember the intake bolts on a vortec head sbc are signifigantly different than the early (and other) sbc's (unless there are two versions of the vortec heads. the heads on my 40 are vortecs and the intake bolts drop in at zero degrees to the vertical and there are only 8 bolts holding the thing on.. MAYBE the older vortecs are different?? I am not sure..

as for the combo.. it sounds great.. I too have heard that the vortecs flow BETTER than the old double humpers...

good luck

[Fat Hack]

What's the cost on Vortec heads vs SR Torquer heads? I'd rather have the SRs because they retain the old 'look' and flow damn good for what they are. They're essentially a low-dollar cast iron head that offers more performance than stock for about $500 a pair or so. (Assembled and ready to go).

[colorado51]

Ok, here are some rough numbers:

283 +.030
average heads
9.0-1 compression
650 cfm
dual plane manifold
headers w/mufflers
performance street cam

RPM HP TQ
2500 126 265
3000 155 272
3500 192 289
4000 230 302
4500 262 305
5000 296 300
5500 296 283


For higher RPM’s, add pocket porting, large valves, and a single plane manifold, and you get:

RPM HP TQ
2500 118 249
3000 151 264
3500 193 290
4000 238 313
4500 281 327
5000 317 333
5500 341 326
6000 356 312

[Roothawg]

FH, the Vortecs run about 240 each assembled. I have the new Scoggins Dickey catalog but I don't remember the SR heads being that cheap. I'll hafta look.

[CURIOUS RASH]

[ QUOTE ]
ummmm not on vortec heads you will not.. remember the intake bolts on a vortec head sbc are signifigantly different than the early (and other) sbc's (unless there are two versions of the vortec heads. the heads on my 40 are vortecs and the intake bolts drop in at zero degrees to the vertical and there are only 8 bolts holding the thing on.. MAYBE the older vortecs are different?? I am not sure..

as for the combo.. it sounds great.. I too have heard that the vortecs flow BETTER than the old double humpers...


[/ QUOTE ] <font color="green">You are right there about the Vortecs.

However,

Pace Pontiac has Vortecs available that have been machined to accept the older style intakes and valve covers,

All stock Vortecs have the same mounting holes.

I believe Edelbrock makes a Vortec Air Gap.

The Vortecs will outflow anything out there. Dollar foe dollar.

RASHY </font>

[crclebrner]

The Vortecs come in a 6 bolt per side on the intake design and a 4 bolts per side on the intake design. I don't have a lot of experience with the Vortec heads personaly, but I have my machinest looking out for some for me. He advises that the 4 bolt design heads are the best, but require a special intake. Any old SBC intake can be modified to work with the 6 bolt heads by reangling the bolt holes. I would definatly be sure to go with 305 Vortecs on a 283 to help keep the compression up.

[Roothawg]

The L-31 vortecs are a 64CC so it should be comparable to the old powerpacks only better flow and bigger valves.

[Dan]

What the story with the rocker arms on Vortecs? You have to use self-aligning?? What about the springs?? I briefly glanced at an article over on ChevyTalk and this guy was outlining all of these "mods" that had to be made on the vortecs and by the time your done it looks like the Tourqers are way cheaper???

[Roothawg]

I am unsure of the rocker arms. I will probably drop the idea of roller rockers, the more I think about it. I know they have to be self aligning but you will have to have rocker arms for the torquers as well.

[FWilliams]

my expierences with vortecs are if you are going to run a small block in the 300 to 400 hp range bolt them on and go. if you want more, plan on spending extra cash,

here is what i have found working with the vortec;

need dedicated vortec manifold; more companys are making them, but your choices are still pretty limited, other mani folds can be machined to work,but it gets expensive. along with the bolt issue , you need a taller sealing surface above the intake port, this requires welding and machining


vortec needs center bolt valve covers, again more styles being made all the time but still limited

rocker arms are self aligning, or what is known as rail rockers, they also use press in rocker studs, you can purshase roller rockers that will work, or you can machine for screw in studs and guide plates, if this is done you have to use a NON rail rocker. you can not use self aligning rockers with guide plates. another problem that arises is interference with the center bolt valve covers and some roller rockers

VALVE SPRINGS the real big issue with vortecs, the valve guide serves as the inside diameter locator for the valve springs, the guide is also machined at the top for a .560 diameter valve guide seal. total valve lift in stock form is limited to around .420 lift, you get above this and retainers are going to start hitting the top of the valve guide seals.
to accomodate more lift you need to increase the the spring seat diameteer from 1.25 to 1.44 inches then cut the valve guide seal diameter to .530, this is the standard size for positive type valve guide seals, you can also reduce the height of the valve guide . after all this machine work you will be able to use most after market valve springs, but you are still going to be limited to a max cam lift of .525 lift

the heads are good with a mild cam, you really cant improve on the flow by porting on them, they are fine right out of the box, if you can put up with the manifold and valve cover issues, go for it, if you want a true high performance head i would look elsewhere.


just my .02
RACEFAB

[Roothawg]

Thanks guys.....I'm still looking at all my catalogs http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[CURIOUS RASH]

<font color="green"> I got around the center bolt issue.

You can order these things for 159. or so.

In fact, I did, then saw all they were was a spacer plate and some spacer risers for the center.

I took them to owrk and scanned the plates, cut the spacer plates out on a water jet and then lathed the center spacers down.

I sent them back and got my money back

The Vortec heads have a machined lip where the valve cover gasket goes. This makes it alot easier to flat seal unlike the older ones that just have a rounded cast edge.

http://photo.starblvd.net/~ron_n_tracy/12-5-3.jpg http://photo.starblvd.net/~ron_n_tracy/12-5-4.jpg </font>

[CURIOUS RASH]

<font color="green">I'll make you a deal....

Buy your set of heads and run them.

If you don't like them,

AND, haven't fucked them up...

I'll buy them for what you have in them.

Just don't not like them til after I buy my house!! </font>

[Roothawg]

I think I will buy a set. I think the trick is knowing what to put them on. I know if I build the 283 I won't need a mega lift cam so they will be fine. I pulled the intake and carb to put on the T so I would have to buy them anyway.

If it was gonna be a heavy thumper I would buy the Torquers I think.

[Gr8ballsofir]

For the trans what about the newer Hydra-Matic 4speed?