Allison or Rolls V-12

[crewcutkid]

Boy, I know it's a stupid question, but I was wondering if anyone knew where to procure either an Allison, Rolls, Or Pratt+Whitney V-12 engine. It's more for curiosity's sake, but I think a little A or even a suicidal T powered by one of these supercharged beasts would be bitchin'. Of course, such a rod would have to be dubbed "Spitfire" or summat.
Thanks,
Crew

[36-3window]

try Trade-a-Plane...it's the hemmings of aircraft

i'd go for the rolls-royce....the p-51 wasn't worth crap with the Allison....it became a real legend when they started putting in the RR Merlin engine

i don't think P & W ever made a v-12...they where all round motors

[Flat Ernie]

You just missed one on eBay not two weeks ago. Go look at the ultimate engine post from a few weeks ago - I posted a link to it then. I think it went for $7500 & didn't meet reserve. They are big bucks.

The Allison was fine at low altitude, but couldn't hang with the Rolls. In a car - you don't need the Rolls! Packard also built the Merlin under license from Rolls.

Trade-a-plane is the place to start - also do a web search for Reno Air Races - might find some leads on some of those web sites.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[OldCarPilot]

That engine is damn near as big and 3 times the weight of an A. (not based on real facts)
A really cool engine though. Airplane people are where to look. The airplane v-12s were anywhere from 1800- to a little over 2000HP at about 2800rpm.

[metalshapes]

In the Pima Air museum here in Tucson they have a V12 Engine out of a old Russian fighter plane, and it is even bigger.
It is cool to see the differences between the Allisons and that engine, all the castings are really rough and almost crude on the Russian engine.
You just dont expect to see that...
I was looking at that thing, and I could visualize a Hot Rod around it...

[Jimmy B]

Do a Google search or keep an eye on E-bay or what has already mentioned

But here is Rod Hadfield's '55 Chev which is a 3000hp http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gifversion. It is road registered & is the most powerful road registered car in the world. Here is a link to Rod's business as these are his pics I'm using Castlemaine Rod Shop (http://www.rodshop.com.au/)

http://www.rodshop.com.au/projects/55proj902_2.jpg http://www.rodshop.com.au/photos/55proj602_7.jpg http://www.rodshop.com.au/photos/55proj602_9.jpg http://www.rodshop.com.au/projects/55proj902_2.jpg

[Morrisman]

That's the dual supercharged version kicking out the 3000hp. Also had nitrous fitted for hi altitude work, thouigh I doubt the '55 has that bit still attached http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The motor weighs a cool one ton, so is not to be taken lightly and dropped in using stock Chevy mounts http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[crewcutkid]

Good Gawd! That chev (i'm not a chevy guy) is bitchin! Well, as far as weight is concerned, I'll have to see If I can find some damn good aircraft-grade motor mounts. They will probably come with the engine anyway, plus, If this engine was in an airplane, It cant be TOO terribly heavy. I don't picture a spit with the weight of a model A on the front end, the damn thing would crash! So, therefore, I'm forced to assume that the engines (while again, no lightweight) would be just fine in a strengthened car.
-Crew

[Jim Marlett]

Are you familiar with this one?

http://flatlanders.just.nu/

[Mr 42]

HI I Agree that a big V12 would make a good Hot Rod engine.
I would checkout the Tractor pulling Scene /web pages.

Here i Sweden we can get the Rover Meteor Mk Centurion engine quite cheap, And that engine is a Tank version of the Rolls Roce Merlin engine made for the Centurion tank. 27 Litre 60 deg V12 650 hpr 2550 rpm, 1555 lb./ft at 1500 rpm. Good enough to drive around with.

You can find more info on my project at www.brandow.tk (http://www.brandow.tk)

Here is my engine in action.

http://w1.136.telia.com/~u13603242/PICTLIB/Webmaster/v12/upd2/cap092.jpg


You can see and listen to it in action here: http://w1.132.telia.com/~u13203489/ItsAlive3.MPG
Right click on the link and save on your disc before looking its 4 MB, and take awhile to save.

[bufordtjustice]

That is awesome Mr42, thanx for that video! Sounds like that tank engine would be a good road to look into, im surprised it has only 650 hp, but 1550 ftlb is wow....

Greg

[Spitfire1776]

Definitely go with the Rolls. Better engine and parts are easier to find. There seems to be more resources dealing with Rolls V-12's as well.

Good luck, that thing should turn out awesome. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ragtop]

Brings back a lot of good memories. My Dad used to take us to the unlimited Hydroplane races on the Detroit river. All the good boats had Merlins in them. My Dad was in the Canadian Air Force ground crew during the war and stationed in England, they used to convert the Spits and P51s over to Merlins whenever they could. Nuth'n sounds like a Merlin!

[Morrisman]

Mr 42, how much did you have to pay for that big motor?
I live in England so maybe I too could have one for my next project http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jkustom]

I was brought up around these motors....only they were in vintage hydroplanes..... Dont really know how you would fit one in an early car......

I should dig up some pics of 'em in the boats........ Hotrods of the water you know...

[warbird]

Go with which ever one you find first. A Merlin is probably the best water cooled recip. aircraft engine ever designed. But at low altitude (which I think most automotive uses will likely remain at) the Allison can put out a bunch of HP. And it has a stronger bottom end. The early Allison powered Mustangs had good performance at sea level but fell on their faces above 10,000 ft. due to the lack of the two-stage, two-speed blower of the Merlin. So, engine swap to the Merlin. As an aside, the last of the post-war Twin Mustangs successfully used Allisons with the addition of a second stage blower.

Whichever way you go, it ain't gonna be cheap! Get some reprints of the military parts and service manuals to see what kind of complexity your getting in for. Trade-a-plane is probably your best bet to get started.

A few years back, someone down south of here had 5 early Allisons for sale for 4 grand for the lot. A couple of us tried to figure out how we could pedal the three left over after we each kept one in order to at least break even on the deal. Figured too long, as a buddy of mine from LaCanada bought all of them and shipped 'em off to Vintage
V12's. Ya snooze, ya loose! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[OldCarPilot]

The spitfire, bing one of the lighter airplanes that had v12s in them, weighed in at about 4400lbs empty.

[Mr 42]

Morrisman i sent you a PM.

[Flat Ernie]

If you're just after a V12, Jaguar made one too ya know - a litte more car sized at that! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Slag Kustom]

a jag v-12 is only a 327ci and makes little power. i pulled the v-12 out of my xjs and put a 1994 corvette lt1 in and the car was 1000lbs lighter and much faster i was close to putting the v-12 in an A pickup roadster with 4 downdraft webers but it just weighed tooo much

[wingnutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Do a Google search or keep an eye on E-bay or what has already mentioned

But here is Rod Hadfield's '55 Chev which is a 3000hp http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gifversion. It is road registered & is the most powerful road registered car in the world. Here is a link to Rod's business as these are his pics I'm using Castlemaine Rod Shop (http://www.rodshop.com.au/)


[/ QUOTE ]

Early 60's there was a Model T with an Allison..., and in the 70's I saw a 64 Chevell with an Allison, I believe TV Tommy Ivo had a couple of dragsters running the big ole V-12's.

Again they weigh a ton, cost a ton, and are so collectable for Warbird restoration that they're rebuilding them for air worthy certification.

Mike Nixon is one of those guys rebuilding and certifying the V-12's and he is located out in the CA desert.

[32viper]

Seems I remember someone down in Texas building a roadster with one of those airplane engines. The pictures I saw were "project stage" so it may not have ever gotten finished. Any Texas HAMBrs remember it?

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
a jag v-12 is only a 327ci and makes little power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I didn't say you'd WANT to... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[parkwood60]

I'm sure you've all seen this chart before? I like the listing for the Fairbanks-Morse engine "Fairbanks-Morse 40,840 (126) 2894 CID, 12 cyl, 12,408hp locomotive"

http://www.angelfire.com/ar/dw42/engfyi.htm

Just below that is the Falconer, a SBC based all aluminum V-12 aircraft engine. See more info here:

http://www.falconerengines.com/prod03.htm

He also makes one ready made for automotive uses.

Woody

[Ngo Long Dong]

Round eye capitalist pigs! Ha ha ha haaaahhhh! I have Wright R3350 radial engine from air pirate Skyraider in my 2CV.

[Flat Ernie]

Damn - I had forgotten about the Falconer from my homebuilt days...if I recall, they ain't cheap either, but probably cheaper than an Allison... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[brjnelson]

http://home.att.net/~brjnelson/wsb/media/118663/site1026.JPG Old photo from my collection.

[Uncle Pancakes]

My dad flew Lancater bombers for the RAF and part of his training as a flight engineer/co pilot was to learn how to fully tear down, rebuild and maintain the Merlin. Man it is a beautiful engine but you had better be a master mechanic to keep it running properly. Dad was impressed that the Allison was designed for easy field maint. where as the Merlin had hand lapped mating surfaces on most of the parts using NO gaskets. He has great stories of spening HOURS with engineers blueing lapping cylinder heads to the blocks...Great engine but a very very specialized engine too, think I might go with an Allison if you want to try to work on it yourself. Remember too these engines are designed for long running within a limited rev range not for the quickly varying use an automotive engine gets in daily driving. If you build it though I'll be the first in line to go for a ride!!

[parkwood60]

Anyone know specs on the motor in that special Jay Leno has been driving? No matter what you think of Jay, I've seen this thing up close at Bob's and it's amazing. The scale is way off. The whole car is huge and the rear end is out of a dump truck I think. It's body is entirely formed of raw aluminum. The rear tires are about 4' in diameter.

Oh and if you read the article, he mentions a guy in Georgia who had several extra Patton Tank engines.

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/2004/5/hot_rod/print.phtml

Heres the link to the guys who originally built it, as well as a Seagrave fire truck based roadster:

http://www.blastolene.com/index.htm

Woody

[Morrisman]

[ QUOTE ]
i pulled the v-12 out of my xjs and put a 1994 corvette lt1 in and the car was 1000lbs lighter and much faster

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, so a SBC weight 1000 lbs less than a Jag V12?

Jeez, no wonder the Jaguar XJS V12 was only the fastest accelerating automatic car in the world for so many years, and only did 150mph top speed http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[6narow]

Interesting, if not old thread.
Was just wondering if the P-40 fighters ever had a two-speed supercharger attached to their Allison V-12's and this was one of the links that came up on Google.
(btw, looks like the answer is "no" :( ).

There have been some V-12 cars produced over the years.
Caddy had a V-12 in the 30's. More popular and reliable than their V-16. Very powerful car for its day (and long afterwards, too).
Winston Churchill's personal Rolls-Royce was equipped with a V-12 Merlin, derated to "only" 800 HP.
Some models of the Sherman Tank used a V-12 DDA motor, often labeled as a "twin-six".
Ryan Falconer's V-12 engines are based on the 400 SBC V-8 and are big with the offshore boat racers.
Personally, I'd like to see them start to be used on the Unlimited Lights hydroplane circuit, preferrably sitting in "G" class boats.
The V-12 used in the Jag was 7.2 litres (the six was a 3.8L), which converts to approximately 439 cu.in., not the 327 cu.in. someone else listed.
Someone else mentioned that the Allison V-12 weighs 2000 lbs.
Actually, aggregate weight of a typical Allison is around 1300 lbs., with the Rolls Merlin slipping in at a slightly more portly 1600 lbs.
The Rolls Griffon and the Russian V-12 engines were much larger, both physically and displacement-wise, and probably scaled closer to 2000 lbs.
Finally, I remember reading an article in Motor Trend back around the mid 70's ('74, '76, somewhere around there).
A guy had a Bugatti (of all things!) and was looking to "hot rod" it.
...so he shoved in a non-boosted Rolls Merlin engine.
They made quite a deal in that article about the fact that it displaced T-W-E-N-T-Y S-E-V-E-N LITRES!. :D
Considering that car had a huge snout, it was actually a pretty clean installation.

...btw, I've read that some of the Rolls Phantom's were outfitted from the factory with V-12's, although I don't know if they were the Kestrel / Merlin / Meteor engines, or not.





6narow

[docauto]

I've got 2 RRs available, see www.worldlandspeedrecord.com (http://www.worldlandspeedrecord.com) for specs. I'm using turbines now.

includes transmissions, turbos, everything needed to run (less fuel of course, LOTS of fuel....)

Dave

[Gotgas]

6narow-

None of the P-40 models were fitted with 2-speed blowers, from the initial P-40 CU (unarmored, barely armed, un-lettered early planes) to the P-40Ns. All P-40Fs had unsupercharged Merlin engines, and I believe some P-40Ks were similarly fitted.

Would have made a great plane though. Still the best looking bird to ever grace the sky, in my humble opinion. ;)

http://ar.geocities.com/machtress/p40_warhawk.jpg

[Truckedup]

I bet you can't touch a poor running Allison V-12 for $20K? The Merlin is likely much more money.I have seen running Wright and Pratt&Whitney radial engines in the 1200 hp class for 10 grand.These engines weren't suitable for aircraft,no papers.Now if you can find a way to fit a 5 foot diameter,100 lbs 9 or 14 cylinder air cooled engine into your old car....................

[oilslinger53]

ive seen themon that auction site for around $10,000 needing many parts no doubt. also in aero trader, and hemmings airplane. may find some on an offshore racing classifieds andmessage boards as these have been popular with off-shore boat racers for decades

[R Pope]

Anybody remember "Big Al" from the '60's? A '34 Ford sedan, chopped, with a V12 Allison. The driver sat at the back end, digger style. Super cool.
A Ranger engine might work better in a street rod, half the weight.

[Ramblur]

I think the 3350 would be a tougher fit.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/scan-4.jpg
But my neighbor has bunches of V12's Allison and RR. His quote,"Their
aircraft engines damnit".
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/Ramblur/roarNsoar07/roar-n-soar07101.jpg

[6narow]

Gotgas,

That pic you posted is my avatar at another site.
Nice pic of some classic nose art and I agree - Best looking fighter of the war.
I think it was actually the P-40K and L series that had the Merlin, and they were supercharged.
Single stage, single speed, though.
Made 1300 HP, which bests the Allison by 150.
A little more digging, after posting those comments, showed that there was indeed A P-40 that used an Allison with a two-stage, two-speed supercharger...along with clipped wings and a bubble canopy.
The "Q" version was an experimental exercise to see how well the P-40 would perform using an engine of similar "stature" as those found in the P-38 and P-51.
The evidence I found mentioned spectacular performance, but not quite up to par with the current front line aircraft of the day.
Still, top speed was listed at 422 MPH, which ranks it as the fastest P-40 model ever (even if it was only a one-off experimental).
I still wonder how well it would've done if they'd taken the supercharger that came with that airplane and modified it to make it a two-speed, with the higher speed being a .5:1 overdrive.
Probably would've faired better against the 109's and Zero's in high-altitude performance and climbing rate.

---------------------------------------------
Ramblur,

I used to know a guy who knew someone, who would give your neighbor a decent offer on those engines.
What a collection!




6narow

[James D]

Theres also a V8 version of the Rolls Meteor tank motor, called a Meteorite, used in tank transporters. Might be a bit more sensible with only 18 litres displacement.

[6narow]

You know, this has to be one of the few, if not the only, thread I've ever participated in, where an 1100 cu.in. V-8 was considered "the little engine".
:eek:...:D




6narow

[johnrockin]

how about you just make an overhead version of this.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/214/454484036_6c64afb5f7_o.jpg

[Roadsters.com]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SIj2GVfua84&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SIj2GVfua84&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[6narow]

JohnRockin,

Is that a Lincoln Zephyr I see?
Man, that engine looks so small.
:D



6narow

[johnrockin]

JohnRockin,

Is that a Lincoln Zephyr I see?
Man, that engine looks so small.
:D



6narow

why yes ittizzzz:D yeah, someone needs to make the first OHV conversion!:eek: if i had some time, space, and a damn end mill (bridgeport of course;)) i swear to god id try!

[50Fraud]

Damn - I had forgotten about the Falconer from my homebuilt days...if I recall, they ain't cheap either, but probably cheaper than an Allison... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

A new Falconer V12 is a little over $50K, last I heard. Good luck finding a used one!

[James D]

why yes ittizzzz:D yeah, someone needs to make the first OHV conversion!:eek: if i had some time, space, and a damn end mill (bridgeport of course;)) i swear to god id try!

Imagine what an Ardun conversion for one of these would cost today, if only they´d made one!

[johnrockin]

Imagine what an Ardun conversion for one of these would cost today, if only they´d made one!


oh my god i know! it be like buying a house!:eek:

[DocWatson]

Hadfield started with a tank motor, used 'date up' components to build the sucka. So to do the same, youd easily get away with building a running Merlin for 30 grand. Cheap! Just ask anyone that runs one in an aircraft.
Glad to say I have had my mitts on sone Merlins while restoring old airplanes, pure mechanical sax, sorry guys but the Allison is a crude POS in comparison, thats reflected in price and desirability these days.
Now you want a challenge? Try shoe horning a Prat & Whitney R 4360-4 Wasp Major in something. 28 cylindes and a bog standard 3,000 hp!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-4360 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-4360)

But the 3,000hp in the 55? Pure BS, that is a de-tuned version built to Merlin 45 specks. Max power of the 45?, 1,515hp. 3,000 my arse! It wasnt untill the post war Merlin 130 that they cracked te 2,000hp mark.
Doc

[oj]

You might have a look see at web sites for truck & tractor pulling, those engines a popular there too and an aquaintance has two of them on her tractor. The thing i didn't care for was the lack of rpm, you don't zing those things much, 3K and there would be one helluva mess to clean up but you'd have a great conversation piece what with all those rods hanging out.
They do sound sweet.

[Truckedup]

The later WW2 V-12 Allisons with a 12 counter weight crankshaft had an overspeed rating of 4100 - 4400 rpm.This was for highly stressed aircraft use.The earlier engines had overspeed of around 3600 rpm. This isn't to say a beat up engine well past it's overhaul period can be reved this high.

[6narow]

The later WW2 V-12 Allisons with a 12 counter weight crankshaft had an overspeed rating of 4100 - 4400 rpm.This was for highly stressed aircraft use.The earlier engines had overspeed of around 3600 rpm. This isn't to say a beat up engine well past it's overhaul period can be reved this high.
That's the "-115" version, I believe.
Preferred version used by Unlimited Hydroplane camps all through the "piston" era.
The Merlin's came later, late 60's - early 70's, something like that.
I'm pretty sure The Pride of Pay'n'Pak and the old U-12 Miss Budweiser (which was actually the old Pay'n'Pak hull!) used Merlin's.
Both duked it out in the last heat of the '74 Gold Cup on Lake Washington.
Best race EVER!...by ANYTHING.
5 laps, sponson-to-sponson. Each lap set a world record for 2.5 mile closed course.
The Pak won that one. Two years later, it was the back-up boat for the Atlas crew.
A few years ago, I corressponded with a guy who crewed for a few of those old boats back in the 70's and he mentioned that the Merlins were preferred because they could always pull more power out of them, compared to the Allisons.
I still like the Allison better, though. I think mostly because it was available during the war and it was OURS.




6narow

[6narow]

Imagine what an Ardun conversion for one of these would cost today, if only they´d made one!
NOW yer talkin'! :cool:
I'd love to own a '38 Zephyr with an ArDun-headed V-12!
Someone should do that.




6narow

[6narow]

In a prior post, I aluded to some Rolls-Royce Phantom cars being factory equipped with a V-12.
Just found this article - http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/bv/36-39phantom.htm
Turns out it was only variation of the Phantom, the Phantom III.
Good article.
Anyway, I'm posting the link in case anyone's interested.



6narow

[TheAllisonchevy]

Hi If you are looking for an engine ebay or barnstormers.com have some once and a while. As far as the merlin being better I have a video on youtube that tells why I think an allison is better. A P-38 with a turbo allison would fly higher that a merlin mustang. The P 40 started out with a turbo but the turbos were new and had too many problems. The video is "allison engine car". There is a meteor tank engine on ebay under "v 12 engine" It is simmiler to a merlin but does not have a supercharger. There is also a set of manifolds to turbocharge one.

[TheAllisonchevy]

Hi If you are looking for an engine ebay or barnstormers.com have some once and a while. As far as the merlin being better I have a video on youtube that tells why I think an allison is better. A P-38 with a turbo allison would fly higher that a merlin mustang. The P 40 started out with a turbo but the turbos were new and had too many problems. The video is "allison engine car". There is a meteor tank engine on ebay under "v 12 engine" It is simmiler to a merlin but does not have a supercharger. There is also a set of manifolds to turbocharge one.

[Ice man]

If you got one of those beasts and put it in a T or A how you gona drive it. Even with power steering its gona be a bear. Thats when a Lot of big is not as good as a little thats a lot more practical.

[HOLLYWOOD GRAHAM]

If I remember right P 38 engines rotated in two different directions Right engine one way and left engine the other so as not to flip the plane over. That can be a big consideration when mating to trans and dif.

[torchmann]

The future of big performance...
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/news/story.asp?id=536

http://cdn-www.greencar.com/images/ford-s-max-hybrid-uses-advanced-capstone-microturbine-power.php/microturbine.jpg

...One moving part.
hook an electric motor to your tranny with a battery surge pack and one of these microgens and go.
I don't think it will replace the piston engine but it's cool future tech.
I've seen some electric rods but imagine if you could eliminate the heavy battery pack and replace it with a lightweight efficient generator...
Actually I see this as an extension of the turbine car idea, the electric motor would actually be just the transmission device to get the power to the wheels instead of trying to gear down a turbine and hook it mechanically.

What about a locomotive traction motor and a 400kw generator in a 57 chevy???

[Unclee]

Someone mentioned the Seagrave fire truck, they used a v12 that was obtained when Pierce Arrow went out of business.

[6narow]

Hi If you are looking for an engine ebay or barnstormers.com have some once and a while. As far as the merlin being better I have a video on youtube that tells why I think an allison is better. A P-38 with a turbo allison would fly higher that a merlin mustang. The P 40 started out with a turbo but the turbos were new and had too many problems. The video is "allison engine car". There is a meteor tank engine on ebay under "v 12 engine" It is simmiler to a merlin but does not have a supercharger. There is also a set of manifolds to turbocharge one.
The original concept for the P-40 did call for a turbcharged engine (the V-1710-17, IIRC). However, the manifolding took up so much room, that the pilot had to seated quite far rearward.
This caused test pilots to complain about a severe lack of visability on the ground and thus, the design was changed, to a less elaborate supercharged system, which allowed the cockpit to be moved forward quite a bit.
This ended up being the plane we know as the "P-40".
The original turbochaged concept obviously never made it past the testing stage.
It should be noted that turbocharger technology was in its infancy at the time, and thus, did not see as much widespread use as it does these days.
Main problems were with detonation and bearing failure.
One of the few turbocharged designs that did see widespread use was in the P-38, but because of the lack of R&D at that time, they had their limitations, as well.
Apparently, the P-38 did not fare so well in the ETO, due to lubricant gelling of the turbocharger, as a result of rather dry and very cold conditions.
By the halfway point of the war, most P-38's were relegated to the warmer and wetter climate of the PTO and it was there that they achieved great success.
These engines were fitted with a turbocharger that was designed by GE and it is said that it was a poor design, at best, and a lot of companies that were originally interested in the design, actually passed on it, upon closer inspection.



6narow

[4wd1936]

Check out The Michigan Madman, EJ Potter, just about the coolest guy ever next to Smokey. He put Allisons in Valiants and Tractors along with his real claim to fame, The SBC powered Harley drag bikes in the 60s. He has a couple of books out and they are great.

[llonning]

If I remember right P 38 engines rotated in two different directions Right engine one way and left engine the other so as not to flip the plane over. That can be a big consideration when mating to trans and dif.

If I remember correctly, the Brits ordered P-38's with both engines turning the same way. The US pilots got them with the counter rotating engines. I believe it had some thing to do with the Brits not being convinced of the advantages of the counter rotating engines.

Been a long time since I read up on the P-38. Love the looks and the firepower they had.

[Pete1]

The Allison was definetly the better designed engine with it's 4 valve pent roof combustion chamber as opposed to the Rolls flat top chamber. The Allison had a better valve train.
While it was heavier than the Rolls valve train, it had almost no cam wear problems which the Rolls was plagued with.
By the time the dash 9 version of the Allison came along the war was over. It was the 2 stage supercharged version.
One of the hydroplanes (Maverick) used this engine and held the qualifying record for 11 years.
It made over 4000 hp. I was involved in the development of the water injection system for it.
It is too bad most all of the old guys that were involved in that project are gone because I think the guys running the Allisons in the tractor pullers really need some engine help.
By the way, I can't remember the guy's name but he is running a turbocharged Allison in a hydro now and he is VERY competetive with the turbines. I think he is from Indiana.

[Dolmetsch]

Just suppose rather than a T or model A you took a early Freightliner truck cab (or similar 50s 60s design) whch is not unlike a model A style and made a short bed pickup with that body and installed your Allison or RR motor for power. It would look right. I would be in proper proportion and it would be FAST!!!!!!! and fun. Of course you wouldnt use a truck frame but would built your own . (maybe aluminum rectangular tubing.
Don

[holeshot]

KID...this site is for traditional hotrods and customs. NOT for captan KANGGAROO...POP.

[rockstar96]

In the 70s a brit named John Dodd built a merlin engined road car that was road legal over here.
below ia a link to a youtube vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMxFE37Sxw

Enjoy!

Dave

[Babar40]

Get a Lincoln flathead. Same weight as the RR, but 140 hp. You could call it "Backfire". ha-ha.

[Warpspeed]

A merlin in a T bucket ? Why not start out with something really simple like fitting a blown big block onto a skateboard ? Solve all the problems with that, then maybe start thinking about that Merlin into a T.

[plym49]

a jag v-12 is only a 327ci and makes little power. i pulled the v-12 out of my xjs and put a 1994 corvette lt1 in and the car was 1000lbs lighter and much faster i was close to putting the v-12 in an A pickup roadster with 4 downdraft webers but it just weighed tooo much

Gee, maybe your numbers are a little off. You pulled out the V12 and replaced it with an LT1 and that reduced the cars weight by 1000 lbs? I don't think so.

[torchmann]

first automobile was electric...

[6narow]

If I remember correctly, the Brits ordered P-38's with both engines turning the same way. The US pilots got them with the counter rotating engines. I believe it had some thing to do with the Brits not being convinced of the advantages of the counter rotating engines.

Been a long time since I read up on the P-38. Love the looks and the firepower they had.
Its my understanding that those P-38's were sent that way, not ordered that way.
The P-38 was a huge leap in aircraft design, when it debut in 1938. So much so, that no real changes were required throughout the entire war. Something very few other planes in the USAAF's inventory can claim (in fact, the only other one that comes to mind, off-hand, is the L-4 Grasshopper).
The turbocharging system, along with the counter rotating propellers were considered "top secret" and kept for use by our pilots.
When the British-varient planes were flown in combat, their limitations became quite apparent.
When the Brits inquired, we told them what we had done to them, in the name of "national security".
This caused the Brits to give those planes the infamous nickname of "The Castrated Lightnings".
I believe they also gave them back to us, deeming them no more useful than aircraft they already had on hand (NOTE: Many theorize that this episode actually helped put emphasis on further development of the Spitfire).
BTW, the couter-rotating props had nothing to do with keeping the plane upright. It enabled the plane to turn in either direction with the same amount of "agility" (for lack of a better word).
You see, when a plane is powered by a propeller, there is a certain amount of gyroscopic force that occurs, due to the fact that the propeller has to spin in order to operate.
This causes the plane to turn in one direction quicker than in the other direction.
Its an old dogfighting tactic, to get your opponent to turn his plane "against the prop".
When you have a plane with multiple engines (and thus, multiple propellers), the effect becomes even more evident.
With both propellers on the P-38 turning in opposite directions, that force is negated and the plane is able to turn either direction equally as easy.
Now, all the pilot has to do, is to get the opponent to turn against their prop, and the P-38 can easily shoot him down.


6narow

[nifty]

HI I Agree that a big V12 would make a good Hot Rod engine.
I would checkout the Tractor pulling Scene /web pages.

Here i Sweden we can get the Rover Meteor Mk Centurion engine quite cheap, And that engine is a Tank version of the Rolls Roce Merlin engine made for the Centurion tank. 27 Litre 60 deg V12 650 hpr 2550 rpm, 1555 lb./ft at 1500 rpm. Good enough to drive around with.

You can find more info on my project at www.brandow.tk (http://www.brandow.tk)

Here is my engine in action.

http://w1.136.telia.com/~u13603242/PICTLIB/Webmaster/v12/upd2/cap092.jpg


You can see and listen to it in action here: http://w1.132.telia.com/~u13203489/ItsAlive3.MPG
Right click on the link and save on your disc before looking its 4 MB, and take awhile to save.

You sir are bloody mental! I love it, more power to you

[6narow]

BTW, Mr.42's pic is a U-Boob video, too.
I recognize the picture.

I once heard that Chruchill's personal staff car was powered by a Rolls Centurian V-12.
800 HP was the claim.

Not as wild as Hitler's "dual-fuel" car, though.
If I can dig up the article (with pic), I'll post it.



6narow