HELP from the HAMBsters...

[ThingyM]

Old 6 took his car to Bakersfield this past weekend, Only to be told that he couldn't run.. Needed 2 hoops on the roll cage, And rear suspension. What is this all about?? I went over to talk with PaPa Joe the tech Guru.. He said "All cages must have the 2 hoop configuration..If that is the case, I might as well scrap my chassis and start all over again. I know you guys go by some rule that states you only need ONE hoop. I told PaPa Joe that you guys ran all over the states with no problem. His comment, "Good" Here you need 2 hoops. I did notice that the Downunder bunch have 2 hoops..Can any of you guys give us Californians a rule or sumpin, to show these knuckleheads out here.. Thanks.. Thingy M aka Dick Moseley..

[lindross]

I didn't think that the 2nd hoop on the cage was required unless the car was going to run less than 12.00 seconds. As long as he's running slower than 11.99, then the 2nd hoop shouldn't be required according to our friend who does tech with the NHRA...

Sounds like they are playing by their own rules???

[recycler]

What Lindross said. I know the Ramrods got their chassis inspected and tagged with one hoop.
I hope you don't have to add a second hoop. I know why some guys do but to me it transforms these cars from the "bug" style to an altered.
Try another track or call your local NHRA inspector and get a tag and letter of proof. Maybe that will be enough to let him run.
Brad

[Drewfus]

Ditto what Lindcross said.

Ironically, here in Oz we've been forced to have the two bars for our class, although, by our Aussie governing bodies own rule book says that up to the 12.00 sec 1/4 you only need the single hoop......their point being that that rule is for 'registered' (regular street driven) cars, and since these are purpose built race cars they automatically require the second hoop......we couldn't find that rule in the book, but, at the end of the day, that was a simple fix, we just added another hoop and now we're racing.:D

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[recycler]

I missed the rear suspension part of your post. What the hell??????????? that makes no sense whatsoever.


Brad

[Ron Golden]

I've run a front engine, and a rear engine dragster, and neither required rear suspension. The front engine car ran 9.00's and the rear engine car ran high 7's. If NHRA recently changed that requirement at least 50 percent of the dragsters and roadsters won't pass tech. Sounds like the tech guy just didn't like the look of the car and passed judgement.

I agree that the second loop changes the look of the car but I think from a safety standpoint it's a good idea. Same goes for bias vs radial speed rated tires. ( Forget I said that).

Ron

[Mr. Mac]

DAMN!! I Hate tech inspectors like him,I feel for you guys.
sorry fucker

[ThingyM]

After some asking , I found out that according to NHRA, "If it is LIKE a street driven machine. (insert suspension). Then you only need a single hoop. If it is a "Dragster like car, then you have to have the 2 hoop cage. Drewfus said "They just added another bar" and it was fixed.. The way Old6s car is built he would never be able to get in or out of it with the second bar. And mine is just built all wrong to add the second bar. So maybe we might have to go to war with the NHRA to get this fixed...

[Drewfus]

Appoligies for being nieve, but did you have a photo of your cage?

[ThingyM]

BTW The ANRA people that were putting on the race wanted to see it go down the track and say over the loud speaker, Now this is the way it use to be.. We will try again...

[ThingyM]

Drewfus I don't understand, Did we have a photo of the cage ?? He was standing right there...

[Drewfus]

no, I mean for us to see what you mean about not being able to fit the second hoop?

[64 DODGE 440]

Photos of the car and cage on Old6rodders Barn Job build thread.

As for the rear suspension........What kind of bullshit is that when they have cars running without front suspension?

[Drewfus]

Photos of the car and cage on Old6rodders Barn Job build thread.


appoligies, see your point.

[QQMOON]

you mean this http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1139091/Barn_Job_b[1]a.JPG

[QQMOON]

try something like this the red and the gold ones http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/DrewfusDesigns/Willowbank%2007/190807035.jpg

[recycler]

I guess the only reasonable answer is for you guys to move out here to the midwest :)

I had a phone conversation with a Californian rules comitee member of the SCTA. He said "you guys on the East Coast" (I'm in Arkansas) he mentioned several times how cars like mine may have been built in the EAST but their class was designed for "higher budgeted" vintage cars that raced on the west coast. According to their own rule book my car fits in their class in every way but their seems to be unwritten rules to make sure only the California "quality" cars can race their class at Bonneville. Now I have to wait while he presents pics of the car to the comitee so they can vote my fate. Makes me wanna go to Maxton or the Texas mile to set a record instead of the salt.
Sorry for the rant......... not trying to steal your thread..
Brad

[64 DODGE 440]

Must admit we do have some problems in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia. Between the Hollywood types and the politicians it can make one want to move, but it would be better if we could make some change towards realism.

As one of the ones in the start of a build, it would be nice to be able to build in the spirit of the Bug, and not have to worry about the "tech nazis".

Not wanting to build an unsafe car, just wanting some realistic guidelines to build to.

After all, these cars aren't AA Fuelers. Hell they had a '62 Vette running up at Famoso Saturday night, running HA/GR speeds without any roll bar at all, and I doubt that the fiberglass top would offer as much protection as a single hoop bar.

[348chevy]

For those of us who are in the building stage maybe we need a little clarification. If we put a second hoop on does that preclude us from running the HA/GR class? I agree that adding the second hoop makes the car loose it's old time flavor. I am sure that in the next season we will see lots of cars knocking at the door of 11.99. Next will be throttle stops:eek: I don't know the answer but I can only afford to do this once. I would like to travel around and race at different tracks but I want to be able to run. I lived in California from 1955 through 1965 and they did suffer from snottyness. Ask Don Garlits how he was treated at the first Smokers meet. Anyway it seems that it hasn't improved. How far apart does the NHRA rules say the hoops must be seperated? We need to get the rules straight because just like the auto trans thing we all need to be on the same page with this or it will die because of infighting. We need to compromise on those things that will make it easy to comply with and stand together on those things that are worth fighting for. A united front is always better.:) Roy

[64 DODGE 440]

That's my point, Roy. We need some hard rules to build to so we don't end up dealing with the whims of whatever tech inspector we get at the track.

If we have that as a base line, we can feel that we can build and not worry if we will be able to run when we go to a meet.

A lot of any build is such that it can't be easily modified after it is done, as in Old6rodder's case, with the trans coupled direct to the rear axle, how can he add rear suspension? And with other classes running rigid axles at both ends, why do we need to?

[ThingyM]

They didn't say he HAD to have suspension. They said that IF it had suspension, It would have put the car in a different catagory and the one hoop would have been legal.WHAT??? Any time you have a solid mount rear. It puts it in the Dragster catagory.Then you need the two hoop. BTW The front hoop has to be 3" in front of your helmet..I have to get my Altered recerted soon. I'm gonna nail this guy down for some answers on our cars..

[Rand Man]

Did he say how far apart they had to be? I think you could add another right in front of the main hoop.

[recycler]

I thought we had this completely nailed down when the Ramrods got their car cert tagged to 11.99 with one hoop. Its the conflicting tech inspection in CA that's giving us the problem. The HA/GR cars with one hoop have run at Indy for God's sake!!!! This is the first I've heard of anyone giving any safety grief except when Tulsa track told me I had to wear gloves.

Having 2 hoops won't keep a car from being in the HA/GR class as far as my vote is concerned and I don't think any of the other teams will care either. Its just a shame..........
Brad

[ThingyM]

Randy & Brad...There isn't any certain distance between the tubes, But it has to be 3" from the front of the tube to your helmet.. Hell I didn't want to build another "Race Car" I just wanted something for me to strap my butt in and have some fun. Another thing that was mentioned was how it was welded. Mig M/S and Tig C/M no arc welding..Hell a few yrs back there was no tig & mig..But if this double hoop has to be, then I have 2 chassis to scrap..

[348chevy]

I feel for the guys who already have a chassis built or started. I don't know who to contact other than Ryan who I hope he chimes in here soon. I think that these cars are hitting the tracks and they aren't ready for nostalgia classes. NHRA is in this to make money and they will ease up if they think a buck can be made. Of course the insurance companies may have something to say. Although years ago I had a track operator tell me the insurance companies didn't give a hoot about the racers just didn't want any spectators hurt. If the tracks are going to make these cars conform to todays dragster classes then we are SOL. I want to have some fun without maxing out 3 credit cards to do it. I went to MO-Kan over the weekend and there were 7 HA/GR rails there and it was fantastic. Luck was what made the eventual winner. The faster cars red lighted. We had one wreck but no one was hurt. I took pictures and measurements so I think I can build one but I guess I can't use my wire welder. Oh well I'm going to sit on the sidelines until this is sorted out.:confused:

[REJ]

Do you guys having all the trouble with NHRA, have any other tracks that you can run at?
I have run mine at several NHRA tracks and several outlaw tracks and have had no problems passing "tech". All of the tracks I have run at, looked at the car and wanted to know how fast it ran.
I was one of the HA/GRs at Mokan, and having a second bar will not make the car any safer as far as I am concerned.
After the wreck that happened at Mokan, does anyone think you can flip one of these cars over? If one could flip, I think this would have been the time it would have.

[ThingyM]

You sure can use your wire feed machine (mig) thats what they want you to use..
I just talked with Butch from ANRA and he wants this thing settled once and for all. He said he would love to have the HAMB cars run at one of his events. But wants us to have all the I's dotted and the Ts crossed so there wouldn't be another mess like this. Which I can't blame him. I think if all of us out here get to the right person, I think we can get it straightened out...

[recycler]

Hey Dick, maybe Steve Gibbs?

[Old6rodder]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to address the concept in motion here.
At this point it looks this way to me;

We're building a style of car that modern sanctioning bodies have no classification for. That's due to the simple fact that these cars haven't been around for longer than those sanctioning bodies have been. Thus, they are (naturally enough) trying to cram'em into an existing frame of reference, and the classification they're using (at least initially) is a poor fit to say the least.
As "open body, dedicated racing" cars the only classes and rules structures they have are in effect for far faster, far more powerful, much narrower and seriously more dangerous cars.
The very fact that they're setting us those standards rather than more applicable ones of other existing classes could suggest that other issues may also be at work here but it's much too early to make that assumption (particularly remembering the classic definition of the word).

Most of NHRAs present classings are e.t. related, and that means they're based primarily on speed and stability factors. As mentioned on another thread we noted cars in other classes running at and well above our best hoped for rates with no such considerations. The reference of the other segments of their own organization that have already adopted more viable rules has indeed fallen on deaf ears so far.
This is pretty much where it's at for the moment out here.

It doesn't mean it's over, only that it's begun. Our team had already made several decisions regarding this very situation should it arise, and regarding most of the ways it could fall as well. We intend to race and enjoy our car. That is why we built it .......:cool:
Where and when are simply unanswered questions for now.

This discussion's about the class so I won't address the particulars of our car here, as that's more suited to the build thread on it.

Butch, with his ANRA work, is trying to put on a certain show and would love to have us as a part of it. Whether we're something he can use is what is to be determined. It would be nice if we could.
The NHRA is the sanctioning body whose insurance is in use at most of whats left of the drag strips out here, and thus the rules set we will meet most often. How they deal with the class will therefor have a large impact on what becomes of HA/GR here (and indeed, ANY efforts to reclaim the original attractions of drag racing). It won't deter any of us "die hards", but will indeed have a lot to do with how "public" it becomes.

Judging by the attendance we see these days it would be worth it to both sides to be patient and see if this can lead somewhere. Modern drag racing doesn't seem to have as much flavor to the public as the older styles did, and simply dressing its electronic mania in older body repros doesn't seem to be doing much better.
We've watched previous tries at "retro racing" succumb to modernizing 'til they were no longer even a reflection of their intent. Some so far as to be no more than mobile museum pieces even though they're literally new. We certainly don't want that for our class.
And that is most likely a result of invoking the "promotion" of it for paying public consumption. That does tend to consume ... :eek:
It may well be that we're to remain an underground (from the public at least) sport, relegated to those involved and a small base of afficianados.

If so, then so be it. I for one, have no problem being out of the limelight (having had 61 years of practice so far). If we can be considered for something here and public it would be very nice, but our teams goals of Mokan and a couple other out-of-state meets next year are still in place. We're definitely low-buck, so it won't be much ....... but for us it will be something and it will be FUN ......or it just won't be.

OK, piece said. Have at it ............. :p :D

[Jim Marlett]

The standard approach for the Denver Flatheaders that run a number of dragsters with single hoop, three point cages, is to remind the tech people that they run under E.T. rules. Under E.T. rules a single roll bar is acceptable for cars running up to 11 seconds flat and in "dune-buggy-type cars" running 12.00 or slower. It never says what "dune-buggy-type cars" running quicker than 12.00 are required to have nor does it define what "dune-buggy-type cars" actually are. You may have some trouble if "roll bar" is strictly defined since NHRA only talks about rear bracing requirements. I once tried to get that cleared up, but only got an evasive response.

So, it seems to me that unless you plan to run quicker than 12.00, you are pretty well covered even if you call yourself a "dune-buggy-type car." Actually, I think I'd call it an E.T. car and not remind them about dune buggies. According to the NHRA rulebook, a cage is not required until you have exceeded 10.99 or 135mph and there are no exceptions mentioned except that certain full bodied cars can go even quicker with just a roll bar rather than a cage. There is no construction mentioned in the NHRA rulebook that is something between a roll bar and a cage. You either need a cage or you don't. I'm thinking that you don't.

By the way, I wouldn't rely on the single experience of one crash to suggest that an HA/GR can't go in its head. Believe me, any car can get upside down if conditions are right.

[Tman]

Fuel to the fire, I say fuck California and the NHRA. Didnt Ryan say "big brother", the NHRA was hip to this thing? So why is one jackass tech inspector pissing in HA/GR Cheerios?

[64 DODGE 440]

Fuel to the fire, I say fuck California and the NHRA. Didnt Ryan say "big brother", the NHRA was hip to this thing? So why is one jackass tech inspector pissing in HA/GR Cheerios?

Sorry, but that's easy to say, not having to deal with living here. It seems that we don't really have a lot of options but to work it out with the NHRA if we want to be able to run our cars locally, as there aren't an abundance of "outlaw" tracks available here.

It sorta turns into one of those "if we want to play, we need to play by their rules or we won't have a place to play" kind of thing.

Yes, some of the things they are saying do not make any sense, but we need to iron out these points and get the whole country on the same page of the hymnal and it will benefit all of us.

Unfortunately, in the current state of the sport, (namely big bucks setting the game) we need an advocate to sell the class to those that run the game.

Hopefully calm negotiations will prevail and we will be able to build and race these cars the way it should be done, rather than having the whole thing turn into another "nostalgia class" that doesn't represent anything of the way it really was.

[blown49]

It seems to me when I read the rule book the differing factor between one bar and two was OPEN car versus CLOSED car and the 11.99 rule. (I don't have a book in front of me now.) Though construction is stalled on our car at this point we added the second bar during construction even though the HAMB rules said one bar.

[Rand Man]

Can these bars be removable? I think SCTA allows bolt-on cages at Bonne. I could help with a little engineering.

[ThingyM]

Really a nice attitude T-Man... Its easy for me to take my chassis and throw it in the scrap bin. But we are talking about a guy who spent countless hours of his time and money to build an HA/GR to have some fun, only to be told that he can't run it. I have more to say. but I'm not going to waist anymore of this boards time. I just hope you all don't feel the same way as T-Man

[Rand Man]

The internet doesn't translate well. I think his comments were on the "tongue-in-cheek" side. I think the bolt-on section is a good way to adapt. The "must have suspension" is way out in left field. Do all the comp eliminator rear engine dragsters have a four-bar rear nowadays?

[348chevy]

I think that what was said about rear suspension,"Was if it had a rear suspension the one roll bar might be OK." I can tell you for a fact that Comp Eliminator in NHRA does not have to have a rear suspension. I have a friend who runs it and his rear engined dragster has no rear suspension. You know maybe we need to write or call NHRA and get them to make a ruling on these cars. We need someone who is articulate enough to point out the ET's and MPH these cars run so that we can get a ruling from the headquarters. I know that would swing a lot of weight if you showed up at a track with a piece of paper showing what NHRA said. Of course it could come back to bite us if they won't budge on the one roll bar.:confused: Roy

[Old6rodder]

Gentlemen,

The suspension thing was a misconstruance on my part. What Joe was trying to tell me was that if we were in a "suspended" class the roll bar would've been good. ThingyM asked him again later and was kind enough to straighten me out on that one. Made a damn sight more sense when I understood. Joe is no jackass, I've met & dealt with him and I'll speak for that. Seems a decent fellow to me.

Open vs. closed is indeed the primary factor for the second loop. The 11.99 appears to allow exception for us slower cars (and to several other things as well, including the welding). There lies the quibble. NHRA brass out here seem to've elected to deny some of those exceptions. Joe relayed that to me, and in a pleasant & friendly manner. And professionally as well, I got no sense of whether he approves or disapproves of it personally.

Our team's major decisions re. NHRA will be based very much on three interconnected considerations.
1, What it'll take to come up to their requirements.
2, Whether those requirements are going to "hold still".
3, Whether we feel they're actually interested in what we're doing.

Team Geezerspeed's goals and plans re. HA/GR are long since decided and reasonably obvious by now.

On the bolt-on loop, sounds like a good idea that I rather doubt they'd go for.

:D While fucking California tends to be a bit more fucking than most care to undertake I have to admit to that initial response as well (guess my anger management classes are only producing delayed results). Fortunately I've at least learned give it a moment for reflection before making an ass of myself (I'd been getting rather tired of being one anyway). Thus I tend to eventually get around to addressing the actual crux of a problem sooner or later.

Well, most of the time anyway ................ :rolleyes:

[Tman]

Really a nice attitude T-Man... Its easy for me to take my chassis and throw it in the scrap bin. But we are talking about a guy who spent countless hours of his time and money to build an HA/GR to have some fun, only to be told that he can't run it. I have more to say. but I'm not going to waist anymore of this boards time. I just hope you all don't feel the same way as T-Man


Like Rand man said, that was a little sarcastic....................just find another tech inspector man. Dont let one Napoleon spoil your day.

We also need a list of all the teched cars, the division they are in, the tracks they run amd what inspector tagged em. That way if one inspector without a clue is balking the first time he sees one you can show the NATIONALLY SET PRECEDENT.

[Yo Baby]

I don't have a dog in this fight and I don't want to beat a dead horse,but it seems that if the cars can be ""INVITED"" and ""PAID"" to show and run at ""INDY"" an ""NHRA Sanctioned"" track,""multiple times"", I feel obligated to point out that there must be some loophole that the ""CALI"" inspectors can be steered toward that would allow them to let you play.
I mean,how many of the cars that have run at Indy actually had ""Certs""?
Contacting Steve Gibbs and seeing if he would advocate for you might be the best approach right now as he has an ""IN"" and seems to be a reasonable guy,what little contact I've had with him.

[alteredpilot]

The ANRA is plugging away at this deal....

there is no sense in trying to get anywhere with NHRA...

something to remember...

as per the rules...

this is a NON-COMPETITIVE class...

which basically makes it an EXHIBITION class...

that is the tree we're barking up...

[Mr. Mac]

The ANRA is plugging away at this deal....

there is no sense in trying to get anywhere with NHRA...

something to remember...

as per the rules...

this is a NON-COMPETITIVE class...

which basically makes it an EXHIBITION class...

that is the tree we're barking up...

It is VERY competitive here in Okla we run for prize money and points
once a month. We have eight cars running the points now. There is no exhibition runs at Tulsa.We have no trouble passing tech.

[Tman]

It is VERY competitive here in Okla we run for prize money and points
once a month. We have eight cars running the points now. There is no exhibition runs at Tulsa.We have no trouble passing tech.

So, put your your money where your money is. CAN YOU HELP THIS GUY IN CALI? It benefits everyone if ONE more car gets Teched. Strenght in numbers baby!

[ThingyM]

We have about 4 or 5 cars on hold right now because of this tech mess..including my own. But if I have to build a new chassis, I will..

[64 DODGE 440]

We're still collecting parts and will definitely build. Just won't start sticking pieces together until we are sure how they need to be stuck together. :D

[Chili Phil]

Wow. We (Bacon Bandits) have started gatthering parts to build our car and I'm sure there are a lot groups out there. It's time to work this out. I sure appreciate ANRA's support, but if I race I want to compete. We are racers, not performers. Out on the left Coast, the tracks are NHRA sanction. Fact of life. I want to race the Okies and Texans and BEAT them. If there are cars in Calif, I'm certain the other cars want to baet them. There may even be extra prestige in whipping the Calif dudes, who knows? We need to pick a group who are atriculate and knowlegable to present this to the Powers That Be. It goes beyond simply creating a tech standard, IMO, the most important thing is to keep it a "Heads Up" style of racing. I know that Ryan and the Bacon Bandits don't want an index class. We all want to run them out the back door. We have recieved lots of encouragement from the existing HAMBer teams to build our cars. So, this needs to happen in California and New York (Get a rope!) too.

This has really given us a lot to think about. We WILL apply good ol' American racing ingenuity and come up with something that works. Or we'll have to join the street racer kids and run them on back roads. The HA/GR deal is way too cool not to do. Bet we have this figgered out by Spring.

[64 DODGE 440]

"This has really given us a lot to think about. We WILL apply good ol' American racing ingenuity and come up with something that works. Or we'll have to join the street racer kids and run them on back roads. The HA/GR deal is way too cool not to do. Bet we have this figgered out by Spring."




Sure hope you are right on that one, Phil. Looking forward to building and racing ours, and getting into the old shade tree engineering. Heads up, "run whatcha brung" type fun.

[Mr. Mac]

You guys just gotta do it.Like Chili Phil said we sure will enjoy beating you Calif guys.:D

[64 DODGE 440]

No problem, don't mind letting friends win now and then. Hell, if you don't get a red light once and a while, ya ain't trying hard enough.:D