Progress #2 - 1st Flattie Teardown - OMG!!!! -

[Chopped50Ford]

Well, tonight I decided to remove a few items so I can sandblast and clean them up. My plan (as so was everyones advice here in the neighborhood) was to just drop in the motor and run.

Its a 53 Merc Flathead, and a first for me. I have always considered myself unlucky when it came to the best of the best in most everything. But this time, I was able to get in the front of the pack and pull a huge smile out of my pocket.

Anyhow, I start on one of the waterpumps and w/ some surprise, a bolt come out (the hidden one) very easy. I have torn down early 30's flatties in the past and what a pain it was to remove that bolt. Well, long story short the bolt was sheared...oh what disgust.

My bud Danny909 was over and we decided, what the hell, lets pull the other pump...and there it went like a domino effect. The intake was next, heads.......

All I can say is there is a ton of crap in the valley and sludge that mimics the tar pits full of dinosaurs.

Here are a few picts.

I do have a few questions...Everything moves nice and freely. I wire brushed the block to look for noticable cracks and nothing was seen. My plan is to (at this point) hot tank the block, and put it back together w/ new bearings and rings. (is this advisable, has anyone done it and kept the reliability/no smoke factor in check?)

What are some suggestions from you "ole Wise" flathead guru's of what I should do at this point.. Basically, I want to know it all, Im a sponge ready to inflate....My plans for the motor are: If affortable, a mild cam, and a double deuce intake...the rest of the motor Ill leave stock.

Here go the picts!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

Removing the intake...to the sludge pit!!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

Have a look see....

[Chopped50Ford]

I thought the only sludge was the "oil pit", check out the "volcano sludge"....Yack!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

Here was a quick compression check....I dont know if its good but Im guessing probably not...it was done on the back cylinder on passenger side (faceing the rear).

[Chopped50Ford]

Remove-O-heads!!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

I wire brushed around the valves, here is a close up...I was surprisingly happy at the result...nothing of severe damage/cracks...wohooo!!! This was on the passenger bank.

[Chopped50Ford]

Drivers bank....

[Chopped50Ford]

Check out the rust turd that was in the water passage...that sum-bitch was huge!!!! (Danny909 holding sample)

[Petejoe]

Great tech. Keep us posted !

[topdeadcenter]

Wow! How did you guys get those pictures off of my Computer? Seriously, those could have been me during my first Flathead teardown. I think that they are ALL like that. I even had the "turd of rust" in the water jacket http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good luck with the build!
Mike

[4t64rd]

I've got to get the 8ba out of the F-1 today, same with mine, test the compression on all 8, best cylinder had 60lbs. I'm going to do the same as you 'cept my geezer friend is itching to do one more port and relieve before he kicks, I think I'll let him.

I'll try and keep up, but work, school and a new room addition are going to be in competition for my time.

[Petejoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I even had the "turd of rust" in the water jacket

[/ QUOTE ] Those are just the ones you see, How about ones that won't or don't come out after a thorough cleaning?
And now you know why I don't run thermostats, after cooking a head last year.

[delaware george]

they all look like that at first,welcome to being addicted to flatheads http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Digger_Dave]

Chopped, if the lifter valley has that kind of "crud" in it; be sure to pull the sludge trap plugs out of the crankshaft (at the rod journals) and give them a good cleaning also. There is a good (or bad) chance they will be plugged up. If they are NOT cleaned it could starve the crank bearings of oil.

From the pictures, it looks like you have a "keeper" block to start a rebuild with.

I would go with a complete teardown and hot tank the block. Then spend some time with an old coathanger and poke around all the water jackets to see if any core sand might still be inside. (helps cooling when the engine is reassembled)

[DrDano]

Sorry, I really dont want to hijack this post, but I must share some before shots of my flathead. Proof that they may look nasty as hell inside, but may still be useable. They might look sludgy, but have you seen one yet like this?

http://hope.wrapp.net/dan/mouse/mouse1.jpg

timing cover gasket made from a 1967 farmers insurance calender.
http://hope.wrapp.net/dan/mouse/mouse2.jpg

http://hope.wrapp.net/dan/mouse/mouse3.jpg

This is the engine I dragged (literally with my pickup) out of a field in northern Wyoming. Mouse hotel for sure. Surprisingly most of the engine was useable, but damn it was nasty evacuating the mouse brothel from the oil pan! There was a nice mid 30's poncho next to this motor that was cherry and unrestored, just missing all the fabric and padding for the front seat. I told the owner of the car after I popped the pan that I knew where most of his front seat ended up. Yuk. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

Holy crap to the highest level. Just seeing that made the hair stand on end...Its so amazing how them critters get in every place we would never think.

Thanks for the compiments on the motor. IM excited especially w/ the condition. I believe I found (1) crack, but not too sure if it is or even a casting issue. I will have it checked or repaired if needed. For the most part, the block is in great shape.

I guess to move forward, should I consider getting new pistons or re-ring what I have. There is a lip in teh cylinder, but I cant tell if its a "factory" lip put there. What would you suggest. Im on a above limited budget (if that makes any sense) so a full-on machine and rebuild w/ new parts is definitely out of the question if I want to use it within the next year. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cam issues: Is it worth getting a mild cam? Anyone got one laying around?

Im more concerned on the issue of bearings and rings at this point, what should i replace, and what is okay to keep.

HAMB'ers are a ton of help and again, its much appreciated.

BTW: Post away on yer flattie photos, there's no Hi-jacking here...we all learn from each others experiences...and memories. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

Lip's gotta go, whether to rebore is a value judgement if lip is shallow--rebore is better, but perfection costs, and a poor rodder can get away with some taper and new rings. If piston grooves are worn out or there is a lot of wear and taper (definition of "lot" is personal and $ related), the rebore starts to look like only way--there's less than perfect and there's junk, and you have to decide where the divide is with some advice from real builders. Cam is MANDATORY because stock is absurdly mild. Like most SBC's, a hotter than stock cam will help without even affecting low end, the stocker is so mild. Stock late ignition is CRAP, IMHO, and virtually unworkable with multicarbs--expensive way out is the elusive good aftermarket one, a possible cheap way is switch to 21A cam and crab distributor, a very cheap changeover if changing cam anyhow. Ask for the mandatory details...
Bearings also depend on amount of wear/out of round. I would replace cam bearings, as this is a potential drastic leak in your oil presure if worn.
Closely scrutinize valves and seats. Ford slowly dropped hard seats during late production, see if yours has 8, 16, or no hard seats. Hard seats can usually be refurbished with almost no work. How do valve seating surfaces look? Do valves have much side axial play? You might have a good set needing only an Okie Valve job cleanup, you might have a basket of junk that really must be replaced for decent performance. If you can hone, clean, lap and reassemble, you could be on the road next week for a hundred dollars--or you might need to redo everything at vast cost to make the effort worthwhile.
Each bit of work required leads on to more, too--if valves and seats are junk, then it starts looking more sensible to port it, reshape valves carefully, etc.--you get the idea--a cheap rebuild is a viable option if everything is lightly worn, but is a complete waste of time if wear is excessive. If you have to do machine work, then a much closer approach to perfection starts looking possible, and out comes the money.

[Digger_Dave]

Chopped, Bruce has "nailed it." Reusing worn parts is just a bandaid. To spend a little more doing the job RIGHT the FIRST time around is the only way you will be satisfied. Cutting corners will only waste money.

[Chopped50Ford]

Bruce...Perfect!!

That helps alot...I do want to run a double deuce intake so the cam will have to go. Ill keep my eyes open for one from this point on. If a rebore is in order, then it has to be done, sure it may take a bit to get it on the road, but eveything will be nice and tight and thats the way it should be.

My block is in (IMHO) looks to be in great shape an a "okie" valve hone job looks all that is needed and reboring the cylinders. Any suggestions on piston purchases? (Egge) type, ie: round top, flat top, Im not a lead foot and dont plan to race it very much, but want more on the reliability side.

[29SX276]

Chopped 50 Ford;All good info from the guys here;I'd like to say that you should get the water jackets 100% clean.I used a mixture of Muriatic acid and water to dissolve all the crud in my block.It takes a bit of time and is messy,but it gets the block absolutely clean.The acid is available at most hardware stores;used for pool cleaning and is cheap.I paid $5.99 in cheap looney dollars for a gallon.Be sure to wear rubber gloves and a facemask and be in a well ventilated area.
Your flatty will run cooler and you will too.

[Chopped50Ford]

29SX276 - do you dump the whole block in like a 50 gal. drum and let it reside for a few days? How do you do the muriatic acid clean. I know that Hot Tanking these days really dont do it as well as it used to.

Great Idea 29SX276, the cleaning is on my list of things to do. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[delaware george]

the head surface looks good,but i wouldn't get overly excited until i had it magnefluxed....i had one that looked nicer than that,have a huge crack in it that i couldn't beleive i didn't see....of coarse the cold weather is a hard on things out here

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I used a mixture of Muriatic acid and water to dissolve all the crud in my block.It takes a bit of time and is messy,but it gets the block absolutely clean.

[/ QUOTE ]

Muriatic acid works very well. Be sure to coat all machined surfaces with grease before using it though - the acid fumes alone will etch everything & have them rusting in no time. Rinse well when done & neutralize with lots of baking soda in the water.

Some folks put iron heads on w/good gaskets & stand the block on it's tail & fill from the pumps. Others bolt the pumps on & use a radiator plug to cover the pump outlet & do one bank at a time with the surface level. Either way is fine - the stand on tail end is quicker (do both sides at once), but check it often to make sure the gaskets don't let any of the acid leak out into your cylinders! To be safe, I'd coat everything but the water jackets in a heavy coat of grease...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[29SX276]

Chopped50Ford;Flat Ernie has it exactly right.I had the block on an engine stand,blocked off the water pump outlet and rotated the block until the one bank of cylinders was level and filled it to the top of the block with a 50% mix of water/acid.Go stronger if the block is really loaded with "rust turds".Repeat for the other bank.Like Flat Ernie stated,stuff really rusts after an acid bath so cover all the sufaces with oil/grease.
Use a drip tray or go outside as this stuff is messy and leaves a rust stain like you won't believe.More permanent than baby shit on a blanket!!Enjoy!!

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
I used a mixture of Muriatic acid and water to dissolve all the crud in my block.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percentage of Muriatic acid did you buy? (the pool stuff comes in several different strengths) And how much did you dilute it with the water. The pure acid can be damn nasty.

Jezze, this topic is hot tonight, 5 replies while I was typing mine!

[Flat Ernie]

I did mine outside & used full-strength hardware store brand stuff - don't know the concentration, but it rusted everything near it too. It eats your clothes, shoes, everything. The fumes are noxious too & can't be good for you (it's acid for chrissake!). Keep the kids & pets away for sure - wear gloves & EYE PROTECTION.

Before I did this, I spent some time with long screwdrivers & coat hangers digging & poking around in the passages to loosen it all up. Then I got some heavy cardboard & rolled the block around on the concrete (cardboard for a little padding) to further loosen it up. Then more time with screwdrivers & coat hangers. THEN the acid bath for several days.

When I was done, my water passages were spotless. Looked brand new, fresh cast.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[av8]

For $60-$70 you can have your block cleaned with the bake-and-blast process that's been in vogue in SoCal's LA basin since the '70s when the SCAQMD mandated something more atmosphere-friendly than hot tanking.

Castings are actually cleaner than when they left the foundry. I had this 8CM block, plus heads and timing cover, B&B cleaned several weeks ago at Selby's in Santa Rosa. (They also magnafluxed it and marked the couple of inconsequential cracks.) Total bill was a hundred bucks -- money well spent.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4260039/57302698.jpg

[Ham]

If you haven't already, pick up a copy of Frank Oddo's book Rebuilding the Ford Flathead. That's my .02...

[Digger_Dave]

Mike, are those intake ports showing some of your recent "magic??"

I was browsing through an old book the other day and came across a piece on "block cleaning."

The fellow had taken the drum off an old cement mixer. He blocked off the head and water pump surfaces of the engine and made a "cradle" to attach the engine to the cement mixer,(in place of the drum) Before blocking off the openings, he got some Wheelabrator (sp?) shot (used for cleaning castings) and placed it in each side of the engine. He let the whole block rotate (with the shot bouncing around inside) for the better part of a day.

He claims that the inside of the water jackets were "clean as whistle." Plus he said that A LOT of core sand got knocked free!

[av8]

Haven't ported it yet, Dave. That's scheduled for next week. It has been bored, however -- 0.030 over standard. When Rocky said it showed almost zero wear he wasn't kidding.

The bake-and-blast process also removes old casting sand -- pretty amazing. I had several SBC and BBC blocks and heads cleaned this way at M&R Machine in Glendale, California, in the '80s and vowed that that would be the only method I'd use in the future. Fortuneately, or maybe not, http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif the Bay Area AQMD, in which Santa Rosa is located, also prefers this method, so it's available here.

[Digger_Dave]

Mike, how does the "bake and blast" work? (procedure)

Now if I could find someone up here that does it.
I have poked and prodded the water jackets for hours, and just when I think I have got most of the crap out, one more poke; and out comes some more.

Or maybe I could FedEx the block down your way. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[29SX276]

Digger Dave;Checked out the label on the gallon of acid;no mention of what percentage of acid/water.I took it as 100% acid and diluted it 50% water and acid;seemed to work fine.It took about 4 days to clean out the block.Does wonders on any rusty parts;don't know about other metals...yet!
nice to talk to a fellow Albertan!Calgary won today!!

[Chopped50Ford]

Well, an update on my Merc Flattie. I have it torn down and was going to clean up a few parts. Basically I found a broken stud in one of the water pumps. I started to pop out the valves and was only able to get out 5 of the 16. 11 of them have stuck guides. Which means now, I have to get those done too... about a $100 added to the price. Damn!!. I plan on using H&H, who did that flatty build in Rod and Custom back in May 2003. They were at the roadster show and seemed to be very knowledgeable and great.

Lets see...now I need new valves, guides, springs. I think I will be able to use the keepers and guide locks. Does this mean I have to get new lifters too? Can I regrind my stock ones?

Now Im trying to pop out these stuck guides/valves and its going to be a pain, any suggestion from the Flathead family on how to remove them?

[Bruce Lancaster]

Valves: Is late motor. Is easy. Popoff the retainers at bottom. Yank valves out top. Now you can put a big socket on top of guides and hammer straight down.
Pulling valves through will trash guides, as burrs on end and grooves + carbonaceous crud will be yanked through. In event you will be keeping the guide, just spend 18 hours standing on your head with needle file in hand and de-burr everything first...
I've got a variety of prehistoric tools for extracting flathead valves, but on late engines removal is reasonably easy with normal implements of violence. Inventing new tools for flathead valve removal used to be a major industry--you're finding out why. By the eay, keep a towel handy--all the blood you're going to lose in the valley can cause rust.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I haven't enjoyed any of my experiences with acid rust removal, except for phosphoric acid based stuff.
I always got a very grainy surface with a POWERFUL desire to rust some more.
I just read a recommendation for this stuff on the Ahooga Model "A" board:
http://www.cleanrust.com/rustsolve.htm#top

The guy who posted it used it to completely strip the water jackets of a running A, and sent in head-off pics of before and after that looked pretty impressive. I'd try it with the heads back on to do just the jacket area.
I jumped in big time and ordered enough of this stuff to fill a garbage can, but haven't tried it yet. I'm nearly done degreasing a couple of transmission cases, so I'll be reporting my results on derusting with this soon.

[Digger_Dave]

29SX276, ahh, maybe we can score the GREY one!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chopped, welcome to the "decision" process of flathead building!
Like Bruce said; "If you pull the old valves up through the old guides; the guides are "toast." Not to worry, they are readily available. (new)

If the old valves survive the disasembly process, they could be reused. If you "decide" to step up to new valves, (say Chev 1.5 or 1.6) and you want to use a better cam; then adjustable lifters will need to be used. (the Chev valves are a bit longer)

Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)

A valve grind is a "given." (new or old valves)

Then; if you plan on a "mild" cam; most cam kits include springs, keepers, retainers and seals. The old valve springs are probably tired, and most cam grinders won't give any kind of warantte unless ALL valve train components are replaced. (oh, don't forget the cam timing gear; especially if yours is the "fiber" type; it needs replacement too! and if the crank gear is showing signs of wear, then you should replace it too!)

Are you getting the part that Bruce mentioned; "out comes the check book again!"

We still haven't addressed the "bottom end" (crank and rods) Does the crank need regrinding? Will it "clean up" to a size that a new set of bearings are available for?

I guess the best way to illustrate your pending project, would to be what parts can be reused.
Block; if no major cracks. Head surfaces may need trueing.
Heads; (stock) but might need to be resurfaced.
Intake manifold; if you stayed with the original.
Crank; if it can be reground.
Rods; if they are straight.
Oil pan; assuming the sump is in the right place for the car your going to "drop" the engine in.
Starter and generator; are they in good shape?
Flywheel; does it need resurfacing?
Pressure plate; springs getting weak?; is a rebuild in order?
Clutch disk; need replacement?

These are about the only pieces you can "save" as long as they are "up to muster."

THEN! Things you will need; carb(s), fuel pump, (maybe a new fuel pump pushrod) gasket set, distributor, (maybe rebuild) WATER PUMPS (two) and the list goes on...

(out comes the check book again!!)

This is NOT what you wanted to hear I know, but if your going to "mess" with a flathead; you better be prepaired to "BLEED" a bit as Bruce says.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)


[/ QUOTE ]

Never re-use old lifters on a new cam. You'll destroy the cam in a hurry.

However, the parenthetical (like that word? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) comments aren't quite 100% anymore - Red Hamilton (Red's Headers) is resurfacing lifters these days. Probably only economically feasible for a set of original Johnsons or something like that. But you can get the new hollow Johnson knock-offs for reasonable (<$200).

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

with the realization of the amount time and money ill have to put into this motor, I have decided to take my time to do it right. I have an old flathead 6 that I may run in the meantime. Both I really like especially for the "traditional" build.

The block is going in for a cleaning and mag. very shortly. My build idea is basically a stock motor w/ a few modifications. Dual carburators, mild cam. The rest of the motor basically back to stock.

I am looking in to the chevy valves, but the thought of having the adjustable lifters in makes me cringe having to reach in the block each time the valves need adjusting. (while the motor is in the car)

Since going to the LA roadster show, I talked to the guys at H&amp;H and thier information was great, but dissapointing. I mean, why beat around the bush and tell me what I want to hear.

Ill be definitely posting picts of the rebuild and teardown process. Your opinions are of great value to me.

The information is great and I appreciate the help.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I am looking in to the chevy valves, but the thought of having the adjustable lifters in makes me cringe having to reach in the block each time the valves need adjusting. (while the motor is in the car)

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll pretty much have to run them if you don't put everything back stock (cam, lifters, valves). It isn't that bad, really - you don't adjust them that often - not like SBC.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)


[/ QUOTE ]

Never re-use old lifters on a new cam. You'll destroy the cam in a hurry.

However, the parenthetical (like that word? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) comments aren't quite 100% anymore - Red Hamilton (Red's Headers) is resurfacing lifters these days. Probably only economically feasible for a set of original Johnsons or something like that. But you can get the new hollow Johnson knock-offs for reasonable (<$200).
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I was refering to stock lifters. (parenthetically http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) Mainly because they AREN'T adjustable!!

Ernie, I was speaking with Red a couple of weeks ago and he said that now that the new "knock off" lifters are available; he doesn't encourage regrinding the old ones anymore. Too expensive, and often there would be one or two that wouldn't clean up, so you would have to dig up a couple of extras. (and now days; about as easy to find as Rocking Horse Shit !!) Humm.. that sounded familure.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ernie, I was speaking with Red a couple of weeks ago and he said that now that the new "knock off" lifters are available; he doesn't encourage regrinding the old ones anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point - I picked up a set of these lifters on eBay for about $180 - they look to be pretty well done. Haven't run 'em yet

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
Good point - I picked up a set of these lifters on eBay for about $180 - they look to be pretty well done. Haven't run 'em yet.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Was at a swap meet last weekend and a fellow was selling them. However, one of the old timers (flathead man, and also a metalurgist) wanted to test the hardness on the cam surface. He is suspicious that they might be a bit soft. (he used a layout scribe and it left a mark)

Four of us decided to "chip in" and buy a set, which he is going to test. (Brinell hardness?) IF they are OK, the seller will give us a discount on 10 sets. The new ones I have at the moment are solid adjustables from Flatattack.

[Chopped50Ford]

sounds interesting...keep us posted.

[Flatdog]

Right or wrong,this is the method I use to clean a block.I knock off the big grease with a steam machine bath,basicly just a normal cleaning of block.Then put the motor on engine stand and work out on all water passages with a old E brake cable chucked up in a heavey air drill.Go through evey head bolt hole and every water passage you can find spend 1 hour a least.Take a break then do it again.Repeat prosess again use a speedo cable.I also spray with rust bust oil a oil everything with regular motor oil.During all of this I am constatly turning the bock.My 2 cents worth.Have not had a over heating problem yet.

[Digger_Dave]

Flatdog, that sounds like a better method than a coathanger or welding rod. The E and speedo cable would whip around inside "whacking" against everything.

I was kinda hopeing av8 would give some more detail on the "bake and blast" process. He mentions that hot tanking in his part of the country is no longer used for enviormental reasons.

We can still get hot tanking done up in my part of the country, but like someone said, it doesn't seem to work as well anymore.

Earlier in this thread someone showed a "tumbling" process that would really knock the old core sand free. As much as it sounds like the answer; shipping a flathead block to them would get kinda expensive.

So.. for the moment, acid, poke, prod and "flayel."

Thanks everyone; this thread helped me too!

[atch]

sorry that i don't have anything to add to the advice already given. but one thing to remember: if you don't have the time/money to do it right the first time where are you going to find the time/money to do it over?

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry that i don't have anything to add to the advice already given. but one thing to remember: if you don't have the time/money to do it right the first time where are you going to find the time/money to do it over?

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN!

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
He is suspicious that they might be a bit soft. (he used a layout scribe and it left a mark)


[/ QUOTE ]

Something to keep in mind is flatheads aren't subjected to the same spring pressures most overhead engines are, consequently, I don't believe they require the same level of hardness.

Also something to keep in mind is checking the hardness of the cam lobes - which do you want to wear first? And how quickly will they wear in actual use?

Not suggesting your metalurgist friend is incorrect, just things to wonder about out loud http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
Something to keep in mind is flatheads aren't subjected to the same spring pressures most overhead engines are, consequently, I don't believe they require the same level of hardness.

Also something to keep in mind is checking the hardness of the cam lobes - which do you want to wear first? And how quickly will they wear in actual use?

Not suggesting your metalurgist friend is incorrect, just things to wonder about out loud http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ernie, he was suspicious of the box they came in. "Made in China." (maybe "knock offs" of "knock offs??" ; or "rejects?" )

He wants to do a comparison of these lifters against the hardness of a set of NOS Ford and a set of Isky lifters.

The "scratch test" is by no means scientific, but he wondered if these are TOO soft, they might wear too quickly.

He showed me a set of early hollow adjustables he had used in a motor a number of years ago that had worn right through the surface (cam side) and left holes in the whole set of 16. (it was using single valve springs) The cam survived without any damage. He said even though the box was marked "Johnson" he thinks someone was making poor quality "knock off" lifters 50 years ago.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
he was suspicious of the box they came in. "Made in China."

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...I'll have to find mine &amp; check. But I don't think they came in a box...dunno - don't remember. I'll look.

[ QUOTE ]
left holes in the whole set of 16. (it was using single valve springs) The cam survived without any damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess if something has to give, I'd rather it be the lifters than the cam... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Maybe those were made on a Monday or something... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

Another quick update:

Danny909, Buddy Jeff came over to help tear down the rest of the Merc Flattie to send it off to be hot tanked and mag'ed. HUGE thanks to the advice of popping the stuck guides and valves out. The ole, socket trick worked.

[Chopped50Ford]

There must be "super sludge" in this motor. It basically stained everything it touched. It was a bear to work around, which was impossible. I believe I dusted about a dozen shop rags while stripping it down. After the retainers were removed, the valves slipped out nicely. I was very surprised. The shafts on the valves were very clean and not hardly scratched.

[Chopped50Ford]

With the valves out, we were able to proceed w/ pulling the lifters, then the crank, rods and pistons. The surface where the guides were did not feel too bad, I think we will know after the Hot Tanking. Any suggestions on how to clean very well. I am putting new guides in the block...I was surely convinced of that!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

We flipped the motor over and removed that oil pan. Holy crap, it was damn nasty. 50+ years of grid and sludge...ewwww. Here we proceeded on removing the rods. Each rod was already stamped, that was helpful. Unfortunately, the bearings were worn pretty good, I think the crank journals and rods will have to be cut. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

Our first few pistons gave us a handful of goodies. Broken rings. Most of them had broken upper rings....it was kind of humerous...Im glad I did not decide to slap this thing in and go!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

You can see the crank was a bit used. Sure was a heavy sucker. There were very slight scratches on the crank. The bearings had a copper color in some places. This motor has had some miles on it.

[Chopped50Ford]

We finally pulled the cam and oil pump, but we had one issue and that was the oil drive gear in the block. How do you get that suck-a out? Is it pressed in? We were glad at this point to have stripped the motor down. It took about 3 hours to do the short block. Lots of clean-up now.

[Chopped50Ford]

Here is a pict. of that gear...how do you get it out? is it pressed in?

[Chopped50Ford]

Again, special thanks to Danny909 and Jeff for helping. It was a mess and an half. Thanks to Danny909 for taking this beast to the Engine shop as well to get the cleaning process started. My working hours are a bit tight...A BIG help Bro!!!! Thanks!!! I leave you w/ this mess...im my damn garage...

To be continued: The rebuild!!!!

[Danny909]

no worries man, you helped me so just returning the favor. glad we got that thing torn down, nasty as it was its almost there. should look like new when you get it back and be screaming down the road in no time.

and as far as the help goes a itemized bill is in the mail. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif DOH!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[delaware george]

that oil pump idler gear is pressed on and you can get or make a little connector that threads into the gear and to the end of a slide hammer,then you can pull it out....usually the bushing is good forever,but if you tank the block with the gear intact,it'll destroy the bushing

you guys will have alot more fun when you're messing with cleaned parts http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

A shortcut on figuring out how to hook the gear shaft to a slide hammer: It has a common internal gear, mebbe 3/8 coarse, I'm at work and can't go look...
Get an all thread that size, a couple nuts, and some big washers at Home Despot. Use the filthy cluster gear you now own or any other weighty chunk of material with a hole in it as the slide, and you now have a dirt cheap instantly manufactured special tool.

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, I tallied up what Im going to need and I then fell out of my chair. Well Damn, I need about $1500 in parts and maybe, just maybe the ole' Merc. Flattie will roar!!!!
(if anyone has any spare parts to sell, boy would I be appreciated!!!)

One inportant question is the oil pump. I started to clean it up. Should I disassemble it and put it back together? I has hardly any excess play in it. I do notice the shaft being a bit dirty. I figured if I pull it apart, I would clean it up w/ a "green pad" and put it back together. What do you think?

One question on the valves; All of the valves came out of the block very clean, no burrs or ridges that did not allow it to slide through the guides. Can these be reusable? I do believe that someone indicated that the exhaust can be reused, but the intake valve should be replaced. I would do a lap grid for each valve before I installed them. Here is a pict of most of the valves. The typical sediments are on the valves, but will clean easily. The shafts are clean w/ the exception of the ends and under the valve tops.

[Flat Ernie]

Yeah, flattie parts while available, aren't all that cheap. You've got to decide what kind of engine you want when you're done.

You could probably get away with re-using the oil pump, but what are you saving in the grand scheme of things? Think what you'll have invested in the engine &amp; then see if saving that $80-100 was worth it. That's one of the most important parts of your engine. You probably don't need the high volume pump - a good 8BA pump should be plenty for a street engine. Just my $0.02.

You can reuse your valves if they're straight (probably are) - if you put a mild cam in, you've got to have adjustable lifters. The challenge with re-using original valves is the adjuster screws may end up very far out of the lifter with stock valves (depending on the cam) - the Chevy valves are about 0.300" longer (if memory serves...) &amp; that helps keep the adjuster screw down in the lifter. You don't need pro-flow stainless valves - good quality stock replacement valves for SBC should be very cheap. If you're doing that, I'd recommend 1.6" on intake - leave the exhaust 1.5".

You can do the grunt work yourself - most of the good flathead books have extensive sections devoted to porting &amp; relieving. Decide what kind of engine you're building &amp; balance it with how much labor you want to invest - you can do most (if not all) of it yourself. The latest research from folks like Joe Abbin suggest relieving doesn't help as much as originally though &amp; clearancing the head over the intake valve helps a lot more. But cleaning up the ports is something very do-able in the home/hobby shop as long as you're not striving for all-out competition.

These are just my opinions. You'll likely get plenty of others.

Hope this helps - good luck &amp; keep the faith!

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

Valve reuse depends on condition of seat area, either as is or after grinding that still leaves a margin at top, AND on clearance in valve guide/wear on stem. If this is loose, valve can't seat accurately or consistently and oil goes through the guide as well. If the stuff measures OK, there's no reason to replace. A useful test is to drop guide and valve pair back into engine when clean, lift to approximate normal lift, and check side wobble. There should be very little. "Very little " can be quantified and measured, but I don't have any books here. You may find that much of what you have is OK--get hold of a Ford manual and carefully measure ring groove clearances, study cylinder condition, and so on. You may only need rings and some seat work if all is within spec. If your block is old enough to have hardened seats, those will likely need only minor touchup, and original valves are pretty tough too. Cams are usually OK, but you need a hot one anyhow...
Oil pump if not worn should be reuseable--end clearance can be blueprinted with just a flat plate and some sandpaper. Be sure you have the early 1950-53 one with spiral gears, not a '49.

A good source of stuff, also capable of giving good advice:
http://www.reds-headers.com/

The most needed parts kits are on his site--remember, if you are on a tight budget, there's no reason whatever to replace anything that's within spec. Beyond spec, you're in a rapidly darkening gray area leading to wasted time and parts...
Be sure to carefully keep parts together and unmixed--used stuff should go back where it was.

[Digger_Dave]

Chopped, a couple of thoughts.
The one picture showed broken rings. They might have been broken when the piston(s) were removed from the block. (you mentioned a "lip" at the top of the cylinder) Examine the ring groves on the pistons; if the rings broke during disassembly; they might have damaged the ring lands.

The first big decision will "hinge" on cylinder wall taper. If they ARE tapered, THEN A REBORE and NEW pistons and rings will "top" the list of MUST DO'S.

NOW; the next decision will be a crank regrind and new bearings.

You mentioned "a copper color on the crank journals." this could be from LACK of OIL (partly plugged crank oil journals) and/or excesive heat. (the copper color is the bearing overlay breaking down)

Even if the crank and bearings are Reusable (which I doubt they will be, and I wouldn't chance it)

MAKE SURE TO PULL THE SLUDGE TRAPS (4) OUT OF THE CRANK AND DO A GOOD CLEANING!!

NEXT RECOMENDATION; if you need to bore the engine, (you will have a NEW set of pistons and rings) along with the crank reground and new bearings, (both mains and rods)

DO YOURSELF AND THE ENGINE A FAVOR:
GET THE CRANK AND RODS BALANCED!!!

[Chopped50Ford]

My plan at this point is having the crank re-ground. There were some visible scratches (more than ordinary). I will have it mic'ed first just to see for sure of any damage or oblongation. The rods too will be surfaced as well. So, new bearings for the mains, rods will be in order.

Secondly on the list: I will have the motor bored (after a mic'ed to ensure its needed.) for new pistons. The cylinders had a pretty healthy lip on the end of the cylinders. Enough for your fingernail to catch. New pistons and rings are in order. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif What are the odds of re-using the stock pistons, in consideration of the bore size?

Thridly: My plans for the valve train are to reuse the keepers and minor parts. I will put new guides, springs, seal and valves if needed. As for the intake (chevy 1.6) valve, do the seats need to be redone or is 1.6 the stock size?

Again, my plan for the motor is to run it stock w/ a mild cam and dual 94's. Longevity is really what I want, not extreme power. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

All the things that go out in an engine--taper, worn ring grooves, guide wear and so on have a pretty clear limit, set by Ford and in the shop manual. There are procedures there that you can do yourself with just feeler gauges and plastigauge and such to see where you are. You don't want to go beyond the wear limits because at that point you are mostly throwing good money after bad, fixing stuff that's declining faster than you can fix. Within spec--let's say, for example, you have some taper (you obviously do) but it's within the allowable wear limits--you have to make your own personal choices about the cost difference between good enough and getting it back to just right.
Buying a dial indicator and stand, plastgauge, and a micrometer might be a good investment here--you can make your own determinations on those things like valves and guides that might be good to refurbish, and the tools will serve you for the rest of your life. Take it slowly, make careful judgements on parts condition, and don't buy anything you don't have to UNLESS you have chosen to pursue a full on buildup rather than quickly getting it on the road. My slightly warped idea of a sensible compromise here might well be BOTH routes, the hotrodder's natural course to hell. If nothing is badly worn, do a valve lap, ridge ream, and ring job while really rebuilding another core engine for the future. This obviously wouldn't be a choice if everything is actually shot, in which case you're already committed to a real overhaul.

[Chopped50Ford]

Well, the damages have been noted. Got a call from the machinist and well here it is:

1. I got one crack from the valve to cylinder...a new sleeve is needed and crack repair.

2. 3 cyclinders have gouges in them that may require me to sleeve or cut down to .060 to get them all equal and clean.

3. He did comment that this was one of the nicest blocks he has seen, the others he had to machine on were abortions.

4. Crank could be polished, but a regrind would be best.

5. Rods: hmmmm, new wrist pin bearings and regrinding of both ends.

Well, looking good so far...(yeah right!!). It looks like Ill be dropping an additional $1000 bucks (argh!!) to get most of the parts if not all of them right. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Ill be brining home the 'carcasses' to determine what my next plan will be....

"Welcome to the Flathead Family!!!!"

(argh!!!)

[Psychobilly Boi]

Hey Chopped,

Just wanted to say, thanks for doing this post. Its on of the best tech articles ever - I hope you continue with it to completion of the engine... be cool to cover machining, rebuilding etc.

I think I'm going to be in a similar boat to you with my flathead. Its running but 45psi was the reading on one cylinder with about 60psi being the average. Yuck.

FlatOz is helping me with my rebuild which I'm hoping will be limited to a re-ring and a valve lap. After seeing your engine though, I've got that cold cold im-going-to-have-to-spend-money feeling in my stomache.

Danny

[Jim Marlett]

Is that crack on an intake on the passenger side? I thought I saw it on the right hand intake in your photo. If you need to rebore, .060" is pretty much nothing on a flathead. That is the route I would go.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If you need to rebore, .060" is pretty much nothing on a flathead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fukit - if you need to re-bore, go .125" over - no replacement for displacement. These are off-the-shelf pistons at most places for either 3-3/4" or 4" crank. 4" crank gives you 276" There is still room for a rebore at .125", but the pistons ain't cheap &amp; not much room for error.

Valves - 1.6 is NOT stock (1.5 is, I think), if you're re-cutting the seats though, it doesn't matter. Kinda like the bore - costs the same pretty much no matter how big you bore it.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Digger_Dave]

Well, I have spent the last hour re-reading this thread.

And I have come to the conclusion guys that we just might have the makings of a "How To - Been There - Done That"; book on building the famous Ford Flathead.

Maybe we could call it, "Flathead Reality World"

Part One - The Tear Down and Decision Agony!

Part Two - "How Deep Are Your Pockets?"

Part Three - "Putting The Decisions Back Together!"

Hey, just "funnin'" a little, but we do have a lot of collective information going here.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Make list of parts from Red's--list machine shop expenses--add up--square the result...
Oh, yes, the divorce expenses...

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
Make list of parts from Red's--list machine shop expenses--add up--square the result...

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you happen to be north of the '49th, (in Canada) ADD 40%! to that number!!
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