Tech request - 3-speed Top loader Rebuild

[Chopped50Ford]

Anyone ever rebuild one of these or even take em apart. I tried to start on the one I have but...geesh...parts are not comming off like they should in the correct order. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Is there a place that sells the seals and stuff for these 3-speeds. (early type - truck possibly)

Can an overdrive unit be put on these from like a 3-speed side shifter? 49-51 ford/mercury trans.

[Bruce Lancaster]

What trans do you have? Is this early Ford top shift?

[Chopped50Ford]

Early Ford Top shift

[Bruce Lancaster]

Ok...remove shifter and set aside--separate jigsaw puzzle there. Drainit, obviously--a big help is setting it out in the sun upside down over a pan for several days so that foul goop can mostly drip off.
Unbolt rear mount, unbolt front retainer. Look at the lower left rear of case; There is a pin about the diameter of a pencil running across back of trans THROUGH the ends of the shafts--extract cotter and work pin outofthere. Drive cluster (big lower gear) shaft out the back by punch on front end of shaft. Cluster will drop into stinking ooze at bottom of case. Tap forward upper input gear out the front, taking big bearing with it. Watch out for the little bearing that will drop out the rear as you go. Tap remaining rear shaft slightly back so you can remove snap ring outside of case, then tap whole assembly forward and remove. Lift out cluster, drive out short shaft for reverse idler. Keep everything in chunks for now--you want to organize further disassembly carefully to keep everything in order and to know which way everything faces, especially if you don't have a manual.
You now smell like rotten ancient transmission oil, and nothing can be done about it, so discard self and hire someone clean for the rest of the job.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Cleanup of the case is a biggish problem. If you can get it hot tanked, do so, otherwise lots of solvent and scrubbing will be needed. I have one now soaking in a big vat of Purple something lye based degreaser from Home Depot, and that seems to be going well--first rinse took off most of crud.
Gears are much easier to cleanup, and for now you just want to get the three or four chunks you have semi clean for inspection.
Lookitall over for chips, cracks, worn teeth, and obvious failures like that.
Now, what do you have? Are all gears spiral cut or are some straight toothed? How many teeth does the front gear on cluster have? Is there a brass toothed ring at front and rear of synchro? Is inside span of front shift fork 3" across or somewhat less? This stuff will ID basic gearset, but there are further variations you may need to figure out what you have and need.
If you're married, count on sleeping with the transmission until about a week after the rebuild. That smell is hard to shake...

[Bruce Lancaster]

Oh, yeah, possibly too late, but before you disassemble check general slop: Grab input shaft and see if there's much oscillation as you yank it around, Move upper shaft right behind frontmost gear and see if much slop at this juncture of front and rear shafts. Grab IN and OUT shafts and see if much endplay. Peer down into the swamp and use a long screwdriver to see how much play countershaft has. Lock up the trans by moving the sliding gear and the synchro both into gear, and twist to see how much radial play there is in the various parts. Get a general feel for slop. If trans is already too far apart, it's easy and possibly more pleasant to partially reassemble after first cleanup when you can see things better anyway and check it out then.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Tomorrows episode: Answer questions so we can ID your trans--also post serial number on bellhousing to date that. Then, on to detail strip and little widgets flying out and rolling under the workbench and mess and divorce and...

[Chopped50Ford]

WOW...thanks for the info.

My biggest problem is the rear "U" swivel joint. I have taken out the center bolt, but the whole assembly is not comming off? Is there a pin or something im missing? Or maybe I really need to soak this thing for a bit so it will come apart. Im guessing it should slide out, but I think there is a ton of gunk and some rust in there keeping it together. im going to try a puller as well w/ hopes of carefully breaking it loose.

The clutch/throwouot bearing shaft looks to be riveted in place, no can be removed!!!

In regards to the smell...damn that stuff wreaks like a havoc of slimy sheep crapping all over the place. Pewtred.

Ill work on the ol' tranny tonight and post any #'s I find.

If I recall, the teeth on the gears are straight.

Speaking of straight, that smell could make any crazy man straight, or vice-a vers-a.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Flat Ernie]

TECH-O-MATIC when complete!

Thanks, Bruce! Good stuff as always.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

U-joint should slide out with bolt and washer removed--try a slide hammer, or run a loop of chain through it so you can apply sudden violence.
Clutch shaft has a pin holding lever and a pin holding fork--grind as needed on the headless end, which should be mushroomed a bit, and drive out pins unless shaft is perfectly fitted and smooth in its bushings (fat chance) and it has the right type of lever on the end for your application.
Details of further disassembly partially rely on your exact type of gear and synchro, but most details are pretty obvious--with some trickery around second gear to keep you awake.
Here are some generalities:
Unless you really know these things and have good diagrams, be very careful and systematic. These are as simple as transmissions get, but still there are plenty of things that could be reversed or otherwise messed up.
Use a table just for the trans, and lay out parts in a sensible exploded view format. Set stuff down systematically--everything that is removed and laid out flat, for instance, should be oriented the same way, like up=forward. Get a scratch awl and mark front side of everything you could even imagine reversing. Unless all parts are headed for scrap bin, maintain original relationships--I believe in assembling any broken in (and yours should be broken in, after sixty years use...) parts should always be reassembled as they were. Some things are selective fit--synchro, for instance, has a scribe line to show original assembly orientation. If you can't find this, get out the scribe yourself before taking it apart.
One of our local V8ers just spent two back-breaking weekends taking apart a restored '36 because he put in the synchro backwards...early Ford trans should get extra care, because removing one is not an easy task if you screw up. Repeat: Mark and organize parts so that a twelve year old seeing his first transmission could put it back together. I would reccomend putting each assembly (front and rear upper gear sets, cluster, synchro) in its own tray on newspaper. Add a layer of clean newspaper when parts are cleaned.
Nothing in here is difficult once you see it up close, but you will be making lots of value judgements on parts as you proceed--how much wear is OK kinds of things, as new gears are pricey. If this thing turns out to be an early straight gear setup, strongly consider buying a '40-48 sideshifter and repotting the gears into your case.
If you are not familiar with standard trans operation, it would be very rewarding and useful to figure out how it works right now while everything is in front of you.
After you have finished first round of cleanup and before you take apart the subassemblies, stick the cleaned gears back in the case, not bothering for now with thrust washers, gaskets, etc.
Note the two controls up top: You have a sliding synchro (2-3) and a sliding gear that selects first and reverse. Each has three positions--forward, back, and center, which is neutral. Synchro snaps firmly into its positions, but the gear has nothing to locate it now and you'll have to peer in to see it engage/disengage the gears below it.
If both movers are in their center position, trans is in neutral. Front and rear shafts spin independently. The shifter has detents and interlocks so neither shift mechanism can move unless the other is in neutral. Picking up two gears together=locked transmission and a big puddle on the dragstrip...
Move the sliding gear BACK and see it engage the reverse idler (which we forgot to remove yesterday) and engage the cluster. Turn the input shaft. The input main drive gear turns the cluster, which turns the idler and upper rear gear and the rear shaft turns in reverse. Move the gear to its FORWARD position, and you are in first--spinnit. The main drive turns the cluster, which turns the output slowly in forward via the big gear you just moved.
Put the gear in neutral, and lockit there with a piece of chewing gum, since there's naught to keep it from moving.
Snap the synchro BACK, which will take some effort, and turn the input. Second, which was able to spin freely on the rear shaft before, is now locked by the synchro to the rear shaft. Input turns the cluster, cluster turns the secondgear and so turns the output in intermediate forward. Snap the synchro FORWARD next. Now, input shaft is directly hooked to output shaft, and they turn as one. Direct drive. Third. High gear. The cluster is still turning, but it is irrelevant to the process, as no gears are engaged except the forward one that always turns it.
This is all pretty simple and sensible if you are actually seeing the gears in front of you. All normal stick trans work about this way, with more gears and shifters added for 4-5-6 speeds. You now know what happens when you yank that stick, and you have actually seen and felt first gear clashing...you are one with your gears, and can now learn clutchless shifting and double clutch first gear with ease because you UNDERSTAND.

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, finnaly got the Yoke off...damn it was on there good.

Now to answer a few questions:

Spiral Cut? - No some are spiral, some are straight
Shift Fork? - 3" Outside to outside of forks
Syncro? Yes, both inside and outside brass toothed ring
Front Gear? - I counted 16 teeth
###'s - T8-677238

What a bear to take apart. Its been sitting a while I think in the Sands of Normandy. Its dirty as hell. Cant tell if the grit is dirt or metal.

A few things I found out:
1. The Main Drive gear bearing is SHOT...very slight choppy movement in it. By the way the snap ring that is in front of this bearing was a BITCH to get off...w/ no exageration either.
2. The Main shaft bearing spins freely, but...I think should be replaced.
3. Both Countershaft needle bearings...pffft... done/cooked/toast too much corrosion on them.
4. The Mainshaft front counter shaft bearing...done!!! as well.
5. The gears are corroded pretty good, but no severe pitting. Im going to try CharlieLed's Electrolysis method to clean them all up...maybe even the case as well.

Where is a good source for parts?

Here are a few picts.

[Chopped50Ford]

Here is the sludge/mud pit....

[Chopped50Ford]

Cleaned up the pit...but the shit that came out...I cant believe it....

[Chopped50Ford]

Gears...Guts...

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, how do you get the crap off of the mainshaft. I did see like a cotter sleeve type rod under the gears...Should I try to remove it (that will be a bitch too unless I get some direction) or cleanup the cluster as it is? Here is a pict of it..

[Chopped50Ford]

I will show picts and keep everyone posted on my re-build!!!

Wish me luck!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
If you're married, count on sleeping with the transmission until about a week after the rebuild. That smell is hard to shake...

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe him...its the truth...I smell like an old bag full of dog crap...Its hard to believe it can get this bad.

[slazzen]

oh yeah Norm I forgt to tell you I got that tranny from a crazy old timer in concord this guys live in the middle of a houseing track must have 50 cars stacked in his back yard he is cutting up for scrap the tranny was in the middle of his chicken coop must have been there for a long ass time so yes the is crap you are cleaning

[Chopped50Ford]

peeuw

[flt-blk]

[ QUOTE ]
Im going to try CharlieLed's Electrolysis method to
clean them all up...maybe even the case as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there any concerns witht he electrolysis process on
hardened parts?

Will the electrolysis pitting cause stress riser pitts that
may end up acting like sandpaper on meshing gears?

Just thinking of the meshing gears and bushing surfaces??

I know of the concern over hydrogen embritlement on a tube
axle from the chrome plating process, is the electrolysis
process close enough to worry about?

TZ

[topdeadcenter]

Tech-o-matic!!! This is the stuff that I wish every post contained!

Mike

[NortonG]

Now that's a great tech post.

[Bruce Lancaster]

OK, trans appears to be a 1934, with original innards and probably original oil...
Innards, if corroded and worn, aren't worth fooling with--this trans would be usable if gears were good, though noisier and slower shifting than a later trans, but if gears are in dubious condition, you can do a lot better. Go get that '40 trans from the classified. I'd give you one, but you'd have to pick it up here since my back still hurts from getting it to where it is...
Get the case cleaned up for sure, and the electrolysis method sounds good to me for this. Clean up the gears enough to decide whether or not to rebuild, but I'm certainly recommending late gears at this point. There will be some interesting trickery involved in the transplant.
Old input: Clutch installation tool
Cluster: Lamp base
Cluster shaft: Save it--it will become a useful assembly tool. Save slingers--they may be needed as shims.
Disassembly of mainshaft: It's been a long time since I've worked on an early one, but somewhere on the front area of second gear is a small hole, doubtless concealed by prehistoric filth. Push down through this, and you will free a key hidden beneath so you can weasel it out from the front.

[Bruce Lancaster]

For mechanical parts, I use Joblot Automotive. They are very good, but since you're on the other coast, see what the numerous Ford places in California have. C&G? Sacramento Vintage?
Many places sell two grades of bearings for these--don't even think about saving the $5 or whatever. Somewhere, I have modern interchange numbers for regular and sealed main bearings, and I have heard there's a high precision Torrington replacement out there for the cluter bearings. Any bearing wizards out there?
I have the original Ford rebuild manual, from the same series as the engine manual someone put online recently, and a great article on blueprinting the trans for drag racing from 1961 that I feel has some excellent durability tips. Anyone out there who could put these in a postable form?

[sedan_dad]

Kick ass info.I was planning on a rebuild this winter of my 39' box.Thanks dude.

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, Ill cleanup the gear clusters and see where Im at and if the parts can be usable. Im going to look around for a 40's type side shifter to put the innerds in my top loader.

When I have the gears cleaned up, Ill post picts for everyone to see.

I will do some research on the parts for the inside. If anyone has any leads of places here in California...please post and ill make a few calls for prices.

[ QUOTE ]
Old input: Clutch installation tool
Cluster: Lamp base

[/ QUOTE ]
?????? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[magnet]

I think the electrolysis will remove the rust.. leaving pits.. but those pits are already there 'cause they are caused by the rust.. so either way you got pits..
but electrolysis will clean the rust off..

a couple 2 hour baths of electro shock and a stiff scrubbing in between will get it mostly clean.. electrolysis wont take the mud and slime off.. but it will get at the rust.

I did an experiment on a shitty old horsehoe... it took the rust off, but i had to use a scrub brush to get the shit off.
here is a link..
http://www.mikeferrari.com/ (http://www.mikeferrari.com/drupal/?q=node/view/145)

The Horseshoe is now a hood ornament on my shoebox.. and rusting up nicely.

As far as hydrogen embrittlement .. i think that if its sets for a couple hours the hydrogenated metal will return to its normal state...

(i am not a metalurgist so i dont know these things :-) )

embrittlment may be an issue.. but i think it might be a small one..

[Chopped50Ford]

I notice you said to use a stainless steel rod, does it have to be SS?

Thanks...

I may try this tonight.

[magnet]

no it dont have to be stainless.. but if it isnt.. it will corrode.. so be prepared to have your non stainless rod come out real rusty

I saw this on CharleLed's post a while back and tried it at home..

some cool pics of the setup..

the charger i got in the neighbors garbage..
http://www.mikeferrari.com/images/reverse_electrolysis//shoe008.jpg

The setup.. note the tips of the horseshoe fizzing... look at the brown shit on the SS rod. this is after 5 minutes. http://www.mikeferrari.com/images/reverse_electrolysis//shoe018.jpg

dont try it on important pieces.. try it on something thats not super important.. in case you screw it up.. im my case the old rusty horseshoe from and old rusty horse.

[Chopped50Ford]

how long should you let it sit? and is this for a "Rust removal" application?

I want to dip the gears from my tranny in there to clean it well. My next alternative is Walnut Shells...if I can find some. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

Here's a page with several links:http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html
A google search on electrolytic rust removal will get you lots of stuff.
Seems like it's almost totly non destructive.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old input: Clutch installation tool
Cluster: Lamp base


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


??????

[/ QUOTE ]

Use your old input shaft as a clutch alignment tool for when you go to put everything back - haven't been follwing that thread elsewhere, have you...

The cluster is worthless - might make a nice lamp base - garage art - humor...

Flat Ernie - translating metric to imperial & humor into, well, more humor... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Chopped50Ford]

Ernie, I figured as much thats what he meant, but didnt want to take it literally. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif (DOH!)

[Bruce Lancaster]

More stuff: You will have to get a late shifter--early one does not have enough throw and fork won't fit late synchro. The one you want will have the vertical part of the casting where the shifter stick sits entirely at 90 degrees to the base, whereas your 1934 type is leaned back rather like a shark fin here. There are two vertical models: Model 68 (usually has a # beginning with 68 cast in) has small screw heads, maybe the size of your little finger tips, at rear of rails where detent springs live. This one needs a late fork added, you can't find those forks anywhere except in my basement, and I can't tell you for sure adaptation works, so pass. Original in 1936-37.
The one you really want has an 81A prefix number. It was introduced in 1938 and used through 1952 in pickups. Early ones will have the wrong fork. Measure inside the span of the 2-3 fork; If it's right about 3", it's the one you want. Early type is mebbe 1/4" smaller--don't remember exactly. The two detent spring screws are big, maybe a bit bigger than a dime. If you find early fork, pass unless you have a source for right fork. Most will have the good fork, which usually has its 91A number forged into it.
Stick must be from a vertical tower shifter too--this has a longer lower end for a shorter throw. If buying separately, late stick measures 4 7/8" from flat top of the lower pivot ball to the lower end. Early is about 4 1/8". Both types were made in many different shapes and lengths.

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, a slight update w/ the trans before I really stall this thread. Im going to keep updating it as I rebuild. So until I find another trans locally, progress is going to slow down. I got to bead blast the case and paint here up a new color. Here are a few shots.

[Chopped50Ford]

after the blasting...damn so clean

[Chopped50Ford]

Painted and "dressed"

[Chopped50Ford]

Here is a shot of the synchro and reverse idler gear, thier not too bad, but my search is on for a later 3-speed. It never fails...always a better "one" out there to be had...and the search goes on..................

[burndup]

Ha! you stripe better than I do!

[Chopped50Ford]

actually, the surface was so bumpy because of the casting, it was hard to make one pass.

I will say, striping is getting easier each day. Just got to practice more on the turns...heh.

[Chopped50Ford]

Okay, just to clarify, I have a lead on a 40 Ford Sedan side loader, is this what I need for the exchange of the guts. Im looking for a top loader cover w/ forks.

Dont want to drop the dough for nothing if you know what i mean.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Thanks in advance.

[Chopped50Ford]

bttt

[Bruce Lancaster]

Any side shift box should have the good synchro and late gears. It could have either 28 or 29 tooth cluster (count of front gear on lower shaft). 29 is lower in 1 and 2 than the 28--I think 28 is about the best of all gearsets for a flatty with no overdrive and cruisable rear gears, but the 29 is certainly OK--it's not too low to be useful, as in tractor or something.
On sideshifters, this gear is easy to count, but it's difficult to see in topshifters. Someone recently taught me something I never realized in decades of sorting through Olde Ford transmissions--the count of the upper input gear and the lower drive gear on the cluster adds up to 44 teeth in all sets, so you can count the gear that's easy to see and subtract. By the way, if you find 25 or 26 teeth on the cluster, you have a set of close ratio Zephyrs, worth some $$.

[Chopped50Ford]

Bruce, what about the mercury transmissions. I have an opportunity to get a 40 merc 3 speed. I Notice the gears are twisted, even on the main shaft.

Thanks for the helpful info!!!

Ill keep everyone posted on the rebuild.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Mercs have same trans as corresponding Ford, except that (I believe) all the '39's had the late synchro. All gears are spiral cut on transmissions from about 1936 on.
If you have an original '40 Merc trans, you have all the good parts except for the late shifter top neded to build your trans.
Look over the gears carefully--you want a complete good set. Individual new gears are around, but have gotten scarce and expensive.

[Chopped50Ford]

since there is no difference then in the gears/ratios, I will probably go w/ the Ford, since its cheaper. The merc trans is a days drive to get it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

A Ford is USUALLY a 28 toother, but can also be a 29 or a Zephyr. The last sideshifter I bought for parts was a 26 tooth Zephyr--I saw the Lincoln serial number on a case dressed for use in a '48 Ford, and pounced!