arg, brakes....ARG....

[SwitchBlade327]

ok i got my new mastercylinder, and pulled the old one off, I've never done this before, but I've got pretty good directions so...what i wanna know is, a rubber boot came with the new one, but there wasnt' one on the old one, so where do I put it? Does it slip over the end of the master that goes into the booster with the rod going into it?

[cosmo]

The boot is for manual brake applications.
It keeps water from entering the master around the pushrod.
With power brakes, the booster prevents water entry.
Cosmo

[SwitchBlade327]

yeah yyou were right, it wouldn't even fit witht hat boot on it. ok I put it back on, but now it seems that I'm losing vacuum at the booster, the car chokes down when I hold the brake pedal down...

[SwitchBlade327]

ok things new m/c is on there nice and snug, so what the hell? ya think the years of crud i cleaned off of the surface made it not seal when I put the new one on? Should I make a gasket or somethin' for it, or put some silicone around it???

[SwitchBlade327]

ok i snugs the nuts up a little tighter, and it doesn't want to cut off now, but i can still hear a constant "breathing" sounds when i've got the pedal pushed in, and the idle gets rough like it's wanting to cut out...I'm scared tighten them down too much more for fear I might hurt the booster. This is getting old, I gotta drive this thing to work for the next two weeks...

[SwitchBlade327]

ok to hell with it, i'm gonna find some silicone and slap it on there, i have no idea what else to do...

[Rocky]

Sounds like the diaphram of your booster is leaking, causing one huge vacuum leak on brake application. You'll need to replace the booster if that's the case.

[SwitchBlade327]

it worked fine before, so i dunno why it would be screwd up now? it went from working fine from nto working fine in about the 20 minutes it took to swap master cylinders? doesn't make sense to me, but what else is new...

[SwitchBlade327]

ok, after dwelling on this a little more, could it be the pushrod length needign adjustment? in the shitty instructions that come with the master cylinder ti says if the push rod is too short the booster will make a noise. could that be all that it is? I'm gonna cool off and go give it a shot. My fingers are crossed, it should eb able to be fixed since teh booster was fine when i took the old M/C off....

oh yeah, anyone know what the allen head plug on the end of the cylinder is for? is it just where they bored out the cylinder during the remanufacturing process?

[SwitchBlade327]

ok, I'm not really hearing the noise anymore, it's not tryign to cut out on me either. I bled the brakes again, and the car is stopping now, but still not as quickly as it should (theres no way in hell i can drive it where theres other cars around me, i was scared to get it up too fast...). What else at I left to try? I know the front brakes don't need adjusting, all 4 cylinders have been bled, and theres a new master cylinder in it....do I just need to keep playing with the pushrod lenth? I was thinking maybe I've got it too long. Theres gotta be someone on here with some advice for me!

[SwitchBlade327]

well, I've tried to fuck with these damn things for 12 hours today and have had no luck getting them working good enough for me to drive it outside of the yard, i shoulda just left "good enough" alone i guess. I'm stumped and might just lose my job over shitty fucking luck.....DAMNIT. i'm starting to hate my car....

[fab32]

If you replaced the master cylinder did you bleed the brakes enough to get alll of the air out that most likely entered the system at the junction of the master cylinder and the lines leading from it? It can take a lot of bleeding to get the air to travel to the bleeder screws, as much as a completely new system will take.

Frank

[SwitchBlade327]

ooh, i'd be so pissed if that's all it was....
i bled the shit out of em, but maybe it wasn't enough, i used damn near a whole new bottle of brake fluid, i coudl see a color difference between the old fluid and the new so I tried to bleed them until I saw no more of the old darker colored stuff....it was getting me so irritated I had to quit and come inside....think i might kill some people on xbox.....

[Hackerbilt]

How did you make out with the problem?
Did you benchbleed the master BEFORE you installed it into the car?
Split system?
2 temporary lines in the outlet ports bent back into the container. Fill the container with proper brakefluid and push in the piston with a screwdriver...in and out till you see no bubbles from the lines.
Remove the temp lines and replace master to the car without pushing the piston.
Once the lines are all tightened up again, bleed as you normally would to remove the air that entered the lines by removing the old master cyl.

Bill

[JSM56]

when you bench bleed also make sure you let it drip before doing the temporary line thing, so you know the piston is not dry. and before bleeding the wheel cylinder or calipers, bleed at the lines on the master as if they were bleeder valves, you will get alot of air out there. the little push rod rarely needs adjusted, but sometimes it does.

[Hackerbilt]

Good point JSM!
Getting some fluid on the piston seal BEFORE making a full stroke just might save a pinched seal!

Cracking the lines....hmmmm....
I can see that going either way. I guess if another person is cracking them while you push and hold the brake without releasing it until they retighten the lines it would be ok.

Could be messy and dangerous for painted parts however! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've never done it that way myself but that don't prove nuthin'! LoL

So...did ya get her fixed up bud?

Bill

[SwitchBlade327]

haven't gotten it straightened out yet, I did bench bleed the master going by the directions that came with it. I couldn't bleed the lines anymore cos I ran out of brake fluid. I guess I'm going to go out and see what I can do now, even though I feel like stepped on dog shit...got a set of shoes for the back too, so hopefully I' can get this solved tonight. I found a ride to work and kept my job today too!

[SwitchBlade327]

ok, I've gone through about 2 quarts of brake fluid bleeding them now, there is no more of the old fluid in there, it's all clean as a whistle. I saw absolutely NO air this last time I bled them, and the rbake are EXACTLY like they were before I bled them. I'm fucking stumped, the shoes on the front are only about 2-3 months old (and it's not driven all that much), I picked up new shoes for the back tonight gonna try to put those on tomorrow....i have no idea what else to do...

[Hackerbilt]

Hmmmm....I have no idea!
Describe what the brakes are doing.
Spongy? Very low pedal? Need lots of pressure on pedal? etc...
Describe it fully and maybe something will ring a bell for somebody and you'll get an answer!
Maybe you should get a local expert to give it a look over...especially if your job is on the line!

Damn, thats gotta be a nightmare with work and all!

Bill

[SwitchBlade327]

yeah the pedal seems pretty soft when the car's cranked up and the booster is doing it's thing, but the pedal has always been somewhat soft on the car...I'm fucking lost. I dont' want to keep ordering parts when i don't know what's wrong, and I can't keep hitching rides to work for the next two weeks until i have another car here....no one has any ideas at all??

[Fat Cat]

we might if you can put all your thoughts in one place instead of 50 fragments over 2 posts. You think your fucking lost how do you think we feel? I mean didn't HackerBill just ask you to describe exactly what its doing? If we don't know what all you have done and when how are we to know. All we can do id guess if you aren't going to give us all the facts.

Brakes can be real easy or real hard but in most cases more info will always make them easier.

[burndup]

#1. get a motorcycle.

-or-

#2. get a honda civic

That way you can get yourself to work.

#3. Get some help learning how to fix an old car.

Swallow your "rockabilly pride" if this angers you, and be realistic about your abilities and be having too much depend on them.

[Slide]

Easy, burndup. He's understandably frustrated. But there are some valid points. It's one of those things that in order to get an old car running right, it is SO helpful to have another vehicle to drive...even if it'a another old car. I highly recommend a cheep little pickup, but I used a 77 Delta88 for a while during a time when I was doing some work on my 52.

But I'll echo what the others have said. Step back, take a deep breath, and type up e'thing you've done, including why you started working on your brakes to begin with. (What was the original problem?) Also, what kind of m/c are you using? Is it a dual-reservoir? Take a picture if necessary. Do you have drums all around, or just discs?

I was having brake problems on my 52 a couple months ago. My neighbors saw my uglier side, and I lost a lot of sleep. I really don't know what I did to fix it, other than a few little tweaks, but there's a bunch of HAMBers here that can help! In my case, a front caliper had locked up, but it took the m/c with it!

Just in case, make sure all your brake lines are PROPERLY tightened. Note that I didn't say "tight enough". My m/c is under the floor (for now!), and I had the rear brake hard line a little cocked . Although the nut screwed in fine, and felt tight, the flare wasn't making a good seal. I just tweaked the line a little so it had a more natural straight-in entry to the m/c port, and snugged it up good. This made the most difference of all. This concept can certainly apply to your wheel cylinders, or any other hard line fittings, as well.

A couple other thoughts: Pull your drums off to see if any fluid is showing up in there. even if it just looks damp, you got a problem.

Also: Check for cracked brake hoses.If they are cracked and weak, they could be expanding under pressure, causing a weak pedal.

[wayfarer]

When we were setting up the brakes on the dodge an old brake guy told us that 90% of all soft pedals are due to mal adjusted rear brakes. Try adjusting them, it's the first thing I always do now and it can make all the difference in the world.

[tommy]

[ QUOTE ]
When we were setting up the brakes on the dodge an old brake guy told us that 90% of all soft pedals are due to mal adjusted rear brakes. Try adjusting them, it's the first thing I always do now and it can make all the difference in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's even worse with 4w drum brakes. Adjust them all!

[SwitchBlade327]

ok, I just typed up a LONG ass post sayign everything I've done, and for some reason it didn't get posted.....Sorry I've been being retarded, i tend to freak out when i can't drive....

I'm gonna go back and and work on the car more so I'm goign to do a quick summary
Bled the brakes.
Brakes still shitty.
Replaced the master cylinder (bench bled it).
Bled brakes again.
Brakes still suck....
Adjust pushrod out just a hair....
Bled them again.
still no change at all.
THey were bled enough to run 2 quarts of fluid through the system. all the fluid that comes out is clean as a whistle.
That's all I've done so far....I"m gonna check the rear brakes first thing today since I got the new shoes for it anyway. Thanks for all the advice given so far, I'll keep ya posted. Time to go swallow my "rockeriffic" pride and get my "pompadorable" ass to work.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

by the way, I usually do have another car, but for the next two weeks it's not here so this is my only option...

[Hackerbilt]

What was it lead you to believe your master cyl needed replacing?
Brakes can be shitty for many reasons young grasshopper.

You need to describe just what the brakes were or weren't doing before you replaced the master, and then tell us what its doing now.
I'm betting your shoes just needed adjusting too!
You started with the LAST likely thing to go bad!!!

Help us help you bro!
We'll do our collective best for ya once we know the full story. I ASSUMED (never assume...)you KNEW your way around brakes, but if you don't it can be very confusing for a first timer. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
No shame in that! I'm always learning something new myself!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bill

[SwitchBlade327]

well the top of the mastercylinder and cap got fucked up in a vise grip accident, heh. so i had to get a new one. Like I said the brakes worked fine, I just wanted to try to eliminate some of the brake fade that was going on when I got in heavy traffic or had to ride the brakes for awhile. something simple as bleeding the brakes turned into this....

[junk runner jr]

Please do not take this the wrong way. Its not meant to be shitty, honest. You have said several times that you have blead the breaks. How are you doing it? Its an easy job but I can think of a dozen ways to do it wrong. It sounds simple and I am sure your doing it correctly but lets look at the simple stuff first. Also are yo sure the person helping you knows what they are doing? just my 1/2 penny

[Killer]

are you bleeding:

right rear
left rear
right front
left front

In that order???????

[SwitchBlade327]

i thoguth i was bleeding them right, but i didnt' know there was a specific order you were supposed to go in. I bought a one man bleeder since I don't have anyone to help. I didn't bleed them in that order...
I just made sure all the brakes were in adjustment and tried it again, still shitty. AND on top of it my dumbass buddy opened the door into on of my jackstands and fuck up my door...he got fucking fired....i'm so angry right now.....................

[SwitchBlade327]

bttt one more time, how important is it that I bleed them in that order? important enough for me to do it over for the 4th time? before i bled it i check out a couple of how to's on the internet just to make sure what I knew was right and none of them mentioned a particular order.

[Rocky]

I've had good luck bleeding the closest first and also bleeding the furtherst [izzata word?] first.
But having done a pile of brake work where I work, over the years, I gotta step in. I've run into some un-cooperative brake jobs before and if I was dicking around with your poncho, here's how I'd approach the problem.
First off, I'd adjust all 4 brakes up tight...right up against the drums, so none of the wheels would turn...that takes the question of mis-adjustment completely outa the equasion...
Next, I'd slowly and carefully bleed the brakes, in the correct order, which is 'zactly like Killer said, but I'm getting ahead of myself already.....
When bleeding, DO NOT pump the pedal....you'll simply aerate any existing air in the system into the fluid and it won't be expelled until it separates from the fluid again,Prolly after you've bled the brakes....again, taking valuable time.
Have a helper push on the pedal lightly, while you crack the line[s] coming out of the master cylinder until you get no air coming out with the fluid.
Fill the master cylinder...
Have your helper put light pressure against the pedal again, without pumping it and open the right rear bleeder...close it up while there is still fluid coming out. If you get any air out, do it again...Bleed it until you get no air at all.
Fill the master cylinder
repeat with the rest of the cylinders as Killer outlined, in order.
If you STILL have a spongy or low pedal, go through the procedure one more time, taking your time.
If you still have a shitty pedal, lengthen the pushrod until you feel all but 1/2 inch of "free play" go away. You'll feel it by placing your hand on the pedal and pushing down on it. You'll be able to feel when the pushrod begins to depress the cylinder in the master cylinder...Give the pedal 1/2 inch before you can feel the pushrod move....
If you STILL have a low, spongy pedal, I'd consider the master cylinder to be faulty and take it back for another one....
Then, start the procedure all over again AFTER bench-bleeding the new master cylinder...
Sorry if this seems long and drawn out but you'll need to be thorough to eliminate any overlooked procedures that could give you a false result of your testing.... Good luck, bro..

[Rocky]

Oh yeah.....when you're finished, don't forget to re-adjust the brakes 'till you feel just a bit of drag on them...

[SwitchBlade327]

thanks rocky, this has been more annoying that anything else I've had to do to this car, and I know I've sounded like a complete fucktard throughout this post. This is my first old car that was an actual driver though, so I've got alot of new territory to cover....Maybe now since i got a thorough walkthrough of what to do I can get the problem nailed, Thanks-J