2007 HA/GR rules

[Rand Man]

These are the rules. Let's find a way to live within them. The class will live or die by these guidelines. I hope it will live forever.

2007 Rules:
1. Stock or modified stock frame rails, rectangular tube or round tube 3′’ diameter or larger.

2. Stock width front axles and rear ends only.

3. All cars must be equipped with a minimum four point roll bar of 1 3/4″ tubing with a main hoop higher than the driver’s head and 2 support bars down to the frame towards the firewall. Tubing must meet NHRA minimum wall thickness for application.

4. Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers.

5. Closed drivelines are encouraged. If open driveline is used driveshaft must have a 1 1/2″ x 1/4″ “driveshaft loop” within 6 1/2″ of front and rear universal joints and be totally covered/sealed off from driver with steel or aluminum floor pan.

6. Cars must have cowl or body and proper floor boards/belly pan to prevent driver’s legs from exiting vehicle in event of a crash. firewall mandatory.

7. No “slingshot” chassis. Driver and engine must be positioned between the front and rear axles.

8. Cars must be equipped with an engine mounted starter and be self starting.

9. Batteries must be securely mounted and fully enclosed.

10. All cars must have a master battery cutoff switch accessible from outside the car.

11. All cars must have at least one red rear running light for night racing.

12. Flathead v8 or inlines, pre-1962 inline engines with stock cylinder blocks only. No exotic aftermarket inline six overhead valve heads (Wayne). No OHV V8s or V6s. (If you are looking to run a straight 6 with exotic heads or a flathead with an o/h conversion, contact Ryan for some good news.)

13. Engines must be naturally aspirated. No superchargers, turbos, nitrous oxide or fuel injection.

14. No electronic ignition boxes that mount outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEIs. Conversions such as “ignitor” or “stinger” that fit within a stock dist cap are allowed. Aftermarket magnetos not allowed.

15. Pump gas/racing gas only. No Methanol, nitromethane, or alcohol.

16. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs.

17. Fuel lines can have no single rubber piece longer than 24″, must be fastened by hose clamps, not hard or cracked.

18. Cars equipped with a cooling system or water tank must use a radiator cap and overflow/catch can system.

19. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield.

20. Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″.

21. Drivers must wear full face helmet, single layer (or more) fire retardant jacket or suit, gloves, jeans (or fire retardant pants), and leather shoes.

22. Five point NHRA approved safety harness required.

23. All cars must be of general soundness and safety. Must have all lug nuts, sound steering, cotter pins in place, and heim ends “captured” etc. Must pass all tracks general safety rules.

24. No electronic/pneumatic drivers aids such as rev limiters, two steps, shift lights or electric shifters. Tachometers are allowed if they don’t have a rev limiter or a shift light.

25. Cars must be built in the spirit of the “Bug” and other early rail jobs. If ya aren’t familiar, ya better ask…

26. All HA/GR cars are required to run a H.A.M.B. Logo in a visible location.

[Rand Man]

We've beat some rules to death, but a recenty one has come into question. Are you Okie boys just "testing" or have you gone outlaw?

16. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs.

This rule refers to carbs such as the Sromberg 97 or the Holley 94. The four barrel such as the 4150 pictured here is a "modern" Holley. I know it was used by Ford on some models in 1958 or before, but it still don't fit in HA/GR

[Mr. Mac]

Randy
I dont think Mike with the flathead and the glide and the new holley has any intention of running his car in the HA/GR class at Mokan.
I think his intent was to run at Tulsa in the five race points series.
Didn't you guys run a old Ford 4Barrell when you first started?

[GMC BUBBA]

Randy,

It was my understanding last year there was to be a " car owners" meeting at Mo-Kan and the rules could be policed among the owners.
Hopefully ( as a car owner now) i can have some voice in the class as we go? The rules are great with the exception on :

19. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield.

How long do we grandfather this rule on automatics?

Maybe we can all discuss this at Mo-Kan?

I also agree with the period carbs rule.
I think the pre 1962 rule is the best......looking forward to Indy and Mo-Kan.

[Rand Man]

Sure, We ran a "teapot" four barrell off of an old Linclon. That's a pretty far cry from a Modern Holley. I don't understand why anyone wound build something that's like an HA/GR but not be interested in the HAMB Drags.

[Mr. Mac]

[quote=Rand Man;2002919]Sure, We ran a "teapot" four barrell off of an old Linclon. That's a pretty far cry from a Modern Holley. I don't understand why anyone wound build something that's like an HA/GR but not be interested in the HAMB Drags.[/quote

Dont know what to tell ya,except thats the way I understood him.

[2b-banjo]

Why not just build to the rules as they are now, and deal lwith it. If you want a bracket type car with automatic, then go bracket racing. Cowboy Bob and myself have built our HA/GA rails to the present rules, it really isn't fair to change the rules for a few who don't want to conform.
2b-banjo

[64 DODGE 440]

Guess some guys have just forgotten how to drive a car with a stick and a clutch.

[Tman]

How about the fuel rule?.......................E85 is pump gas and not pure alky...................would it fit in? Just a curious thought I had.

[REJ]

T man, I see no problem with it, I will be running 110 or 112 octane race fuel.
As long as it is pump gas or race fuel(gasoline) I see nothing wrong.

[Tman]

Cool, E85 is about the same as that

[Rand Man]

I haven't studied E85. I'd like to know how it's properties compare the Methanol we would normalmally use in racing. One of the good things about "Alky" is it's latent heat of vaporization. Long story short, you get a good, cold intake charge that brings in more dense air. Alky will handle a lot of compression. If E85 ethanol is like that, it might be an unfair advantage. Who knows?

[Ron Golden]

Tman,

Good question. I'm not sure what kind of power one can make with E85 but I may have to do some testing on the dyno to find out.

Ron

[Roothawg]

I thought E-85 was a lower octane? You lose power when converting to it I thought?

[moparsled]

My own personal standpoint is that the guys going "outlaw" are straying from the SPIRIT of the class. Forget the rules, within or without, for a minute. The idea is to represent the spirit of the early days, speeds possibly be damned. Sure we want to go fast as we can, but WITHIN THE SPIRIT of the original intent of the class. Autos and Demons don't represent the pioneering spirit of the early days of drag racing, they represent the tried and true formulas of speed in TODAY'S racing.
For my own build, I chose an engine that I know can't compete with the speeds available (through 50 years of development and racing information) to the flathead Ford, Chevy six and Jimmy six guys, but speed is only half the point. Yeah, I want to go fast. I'd like to go REALLY fast, but to me, the spirit of the HA/GR is in the PURSUIT of speed, not necessarily in the ACHEIVMENT of speed. I'd rather fight my way to a 12 second quarter through six seasons of different vintage carb combos than bolt on a Demon and run the 12 on the first day. So am I saying that the devil is in the details? Can you only achieve the spirit of the class through a completely vintage macine?
NO!!!!!!!!!!
but pioneering spirit I think is the core element of the HA/GR class, as it was the core element of early drag racing. Without that spirit, the whole point of the class "Run hard... Show the folks" becomes lost. And I don't think there's anything even remotely pioneering about a TH350 or Powerglide.
I think our target "folks" aren't the general public. They are the other hot rodders, the other racers at the track. What are we showing the guy with the SBC/auto Camaro by running a rail that has the same carb and trans as his car? that his car could be faster if it didn't have a body? But how long do you think that same guy will stare at your rail, and how many questions will he ask you, if you have carbs he's never seen, a trans he's never heard of, tires that are the antethesis of traction, and everything else that represents the opposite of what he knows to be "fast" , and you still, despite his preconcieved notions, proceed to whip his ass on the track?? THAT'S "showing the folks".
I'm picking on the carbs and the trannies alot, because they seem to be the stickiest points, but hey, while we're at it, why don't we go ahead and throw in some Hoosier Quick Time DOT's some rear disc brakes and a 30" wide front axle? The "folks" in the stand probably won't know the difference, but hey, those parts are "faster", and it's all about speed right?

Alright, I admit, I like the rules the way they are. Let those guys be "outlaw" if they want, I'm not gonna. I absolutely believe in the questioning and scrutinizing of every little tiny nuance in the rules, that's what makes the class what it is, and it's also what will determine whether the class stands or falls. I even think I'd like to run some of the "against the rules" parts- hell, they ran magnetos, narrowed rears, and Hemis in '55---- BUT ---- here comes that proven performance versus pioneering spirit again. Thanks, but I'll stick with points ignition and 6 pistons.

or did I just COMPLETELY miss the point?

[Godzilla]

The point is...the HAMB drags are a great place for cars that have been built according to the HA/GR rules to run against each other. For car clubs to pool their parts and talents and build a car to race. The cars you are refering to as "outlaws" for the most parts started out as a HA/GR...but have evolved and now are something else (know as SDRA cars).

As they evolved they stayed broadminded enough to leave room for the HA/GR cars to run with them. They made sure that if the HA/GR cars showed up to run at one of their races that they would have a shot at a share of the round money. Unfortunately...the same has not been done in return.

I really don't hear the guys with the "outlaw" cars complaining. They still want to keep a relationship with the guys with HA/GR cars...but in reality they don't have to. There are enough of them out there now, and ones being built, that they could just move on. I think it would be a loss to the HAMB and the HA/GR class for that to happen.

Everyone on here will have a different opinion about whether they should be allowed to stay and post here or just move on. They have certainly given up some of the nostalgia "look" for more performance. But I think that they all have the spirit of the pionneers well in heart and hand.

So the word has been handed down that the "outlaw" cars are not welcome amoung the ranks of the HA.GR cars at the HAMB drags. So be it. I for one hope that the guys with the HA/GR cars will continue to run at SDRA events...and we can all have fun and run safely.

[64 DODGE 440]

My own personal standpoint is that the guys going "outlaw" are straying from the SPIRIT of the class. Forget the rules, within or without, for a minute. The idea is to represent the spirit of the early days, speeds possibly be damned. Sure we want to go fast as we can, but WITHIN THE SPIRIT of the original intent of the class. Autos and Demons don't represent the pioneering spirit of the early days of drag racing, they represent the tried and true formulas of speed in TODAY'S racing.
For my own build, I chose an engine that I know can't compete with the speeds available (through 50 years of development and racing information) to the flathead Ford, Chevy six and Jimmy six guys, but speed is only half the point. Yeah, I want to go fast. I'd like to go REALLY fast, but to me, the spirit of the HA/GR is in the PURSUIT of speed, not necessarily in the ACHEIVMENT of speed. I'd rather fight my way to a 12 second quarter through six seasons of different vintage carb combos than bolt on a Demon and run the 12 on the first day. So am I saying that the devil is in the details? Can you only achieve the spirit of the class through a completely vintage macine?
NO!!!!!!!!!!
but pioneering spirit I think is the core element of the HA/GR class, as it was the core element of early drag racing. Without that spirit, the whole point of the class "Run hard... Show the folks" becomes lost. And I don't think there's anything even remotely pioneering about a TH350 or Powerglide.
I think our target "folks" aren't the general public. They are the other hot rodders, the other racers at the track. What are we showing the guy with the SBC/auto Camaro by running a rail that has the same carb and trans as his car? that his car could be faster if it didn't have a body? But how long do you think that same guy will stare at your rail, and how many questions will he ask you, if you have carbs he's never seen, a trans he's never heard of, tires that are the antethesis of traction, and everything else that represents the opposite of what he knows to be "fast" , and you still, despite his preconcieved notions, proceed to whip his ass on the track?? THAT'S "showing the folks".
I'm picking on the carbs and the trannies alot, because they seem to be the stickiest points, but hey, while we're at it, why don't we go ahead and throw in some Hoosier Quick Time DOT's some rear disc brakes and a 30" wide front axle? The "folks" in the stand probably won't know the difference, but hey, those parts are "faster", and it's all about speed right?

Alright, I admit, I like the rules the way they are. Let those guys be "outlaw" if they want, I'm not gonna. I absolutely believe in the questioning and scrutinizing of every little tiny nuance in the rules, that's what makes the class what it is, and it's also what will determine whether the class stands or falls. I even think I'd like to run some of the "against the rules" parts- hell, they ran magnetos, narrowed rears, and Hemis in '55---- BUT ---- here comes that proven performance versus pioneering spirit again. Thanks, but I'll stick with points ignition and 6 pistons.

or did I just COMPLETELY miss the point?

I think you hit the point perfectly. Looking forward to seeing another Mopar flathead 6 on the other side of the tree in the future.

I'm still living in a points and condenser world, even if they don't have distributors any more.

[homer78]

My own personal standpoint is that the guys going "outlaw" are straying from the SPIRIT of the class. Forget the rules, within or without, for a minute. The idea is to represent the spirit of the early days, speeds possibly be damned. Sure we want to go fast as we can, but WITHIN THE SPIRIT of the original intent of the class. Autos and Demons don't represent the pioneering spirit of the early days of drag racing, they represent the tried and true formulas of speed in TODAY'S racing.
For my own build, I chose an engine that I know can't compete with the speeds available (through 50 years of development and racing information) to the flathead Ford, Chevy six and Jimmy six guys, but speed is only half the point. Yeah, I want to go fast. I'd like to go REALLY fast, but to me, the spirit of the HA/GR is in the PURSUIT of speed, not necessarily in the ACHEIVMENT of speed. I'd rather fight my way to a 12 second quarter through six seasons of different vintage carb combos than bolt on a Demon and run the 12 on the first day. So am I saying that the devil is in the details? Can you only achieve the spirit of the class through a completely vintage macine?
NO!!!!!!!!!!
but pioneering spirit I think is the core element of the HA/GR class, as it was the core element of early drag racing. Without that spirit, the whole point of the class "Run hard... Show the folks" becomes lost. And I don't think there's anything even remotely pioneering about a TH350 or Powerglide.
I think our target "folks" aren't the general public. They are the other hot rodders, the other racers at the track. What are we showing the guy with the SBC/auto Camaro by running a rail that has the same carb and trans as his car? that his car could be faster if it didn't have a body? But how long do you think that same guy will stare at your rail, and how many questions will he ask you, if you have carbs he's never seen, a trans he's never heard of, tires that are the antethesis of traction, and everything else that represents the opposite of what he knows to be "fast" , and you still, despite his preconcieved notions, proceed to whip his ass on the track?? THAT'S "showing the folks".
I'm picking on the carbs and the trannies alot, because they seem to be the stickiest points, but hey, while we're at it, why don't we go ahead and throw in some Hoosier Quick Time DOT's some rear disc brakes and a 30" wide front axle? The "folks" in the stand probably won't know the difference, but hey, those parts are "faster", and it's all about speed right?

Alright, I admit, I like the rules the way they are. Let those guys be "outlaw" if they want, I'm not gonna. I absolutely believe in the questioning and scrutinizing of every little tiny nuance in the rules, that's what makes the class what it is, and it's also what will determine whether the class stands or falls. I even think I'd like to run some of the "against the rules" parts- hell, they ran magnetos, narrowed rears, and Hemis in '55---- BUT ---- here comes that proven performance versus pioneering spirit again. Thanks, but I'll stick with points ignition and 6 pistons.

or did I just COMPLETELY miss the point?
I haven't even started on my car and knowing there are truly passionate people willing to be true to the rules gives confidence in the longevity of the class.

[Roothawg]

So these outlaw guys can't come to the hamb drags or can't compete in the classes? I'm sure this is why Ryan was so hesitant about laying out rules.

[Drewfus]

Please refresh my memory, there's no trophies at Mokan is there? so who really cares who comes to race, is the HAMB sticker on the side of the car that much of an issue?

storms in a teacup.

[Roothawg]

Ryan has some homemade trophies that he gives out to whoever he wants. No real classes. It's heads up racing.

There are loosely categorized cars ,but that is more for his own reference I guess.

I was soooo tickled when the guy with the 60's styled Anglia showed up and ran against me. I didn't care if I won or he won, it was just like stepping back in time.

[Godzilla]

Ryan made the post below on another thread about the HA/GR class. He has a definate ideas of what he wants to see in the cars...the rules support these ideas. The cars that are "outlaw" to those rules will not run at HAMB events with the HA/GR cars.


"The auto class is a great idea... And I am glad it is around... I know there were a few guys that were bummed when we decided to make the HA/GR class a "no auto" class. Now, those folks have some fellas to race. I think that is good.

That said, the HA/GR class will remain the same at all of our events. We won't be allowing auto trannies or modern carbs in the class... I just like the idea of our guys banging gears and dumping clutches too much...."


The message is straight and clear. The "outlaw" cars can run each other but not with the HA/GR cars. They do not conform with the rules. The rules will not be changed. If the "outlaw" cars want to run as a HA/GR at a HAMB event they will have to change their car to meet the rules. If they don't understand where they fit in now they are just not paying attention.

[Roothawg]

I found out by trying to start the heads up dragster class that you will never make everyone happy. I gave up. I may try again ata later date but for now I think I will concentrate on building up the altered class, since I already have a car in this class.

[Rand Man]

If all the auto cars would put fiberglass T, Bantum, Fiat, etc body on them, They've got a new class such as "B Altered". Seems to me like that coud be a HAMB Drags class, but I don't speak for Ryan. They could make up what ever rules they want and the bitchin could stop. Hell, I could see a Fiat with pie crusts, a 300 Ford six, C4, Alky, and Webbers in my garage right now. HA/GR doesn't have to change. Everybody can have their way.

[Mr. Mac]

Why don't we just split the class and be done with it.
Let the auto's and new carbs run HA/GM(Modified).
That way they could run the six or seven race series at Tulsa and run the Hamb drags in there own class.
I'm not sure what you guys consider a new carb.We have been running the brand new 97's from England for two years.
We are now trying out a four barrell intake with a holley carb.
The carb is the holley replacement for the 58 Ford, and it has been modified. It sure is alot easier changing jets in ONE carb instead of 3.
OH! WE still have the 55 Ford P/U three speed in,for now.:rolleyes:

[Ryan]

There are really two points of view from what I can tell...

1. Guys that want to go as fast as they can as cheap as they can and please the crowd.

2. Guys that want to build a traditional car in the spirit of the bug above all else...

Our class is for the second group of people and therefore that's what our rules try to dictate... I have no interest in supporting another class as I am already doing a bad enough job supporting just one.

As for modern carbs... they just don't look right on top of these motors... They aren't allowed in our rules.

[Mr. Mac]

What's A Modern Carb? Please Define.

[Ryan]

modern carb = post 62...

Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs.

[Ryan]

So these outlaw guys can't come to the hamb drags or can't compete in the classes? I'm sure this is why Ryan was so hesitant about laying out rules.

No, they can come and are welcome... They will compete in the dragster class... There will be no AUTO cars in the HA/GR class this year.

Rules... I'm pretty happy about them now. We aren't going to change them a bit. I feel much better about it now that I know those that did build auto cars have a place to race and people to race against... That was really bothering me man... Very appreciative of those guys in Tulsa getting that class going - I think it will really help the HA/GR class out as free from that guilt, I feel like the class can be what it was originally derived to be...

[Godzilla]

As I told Hiney some time back...I could have booked these cars (what ever you want to call them) here in Oklahoma and Kansas for about 8 more races. It does not matter to the strip owners what you call them...as long as you can put together enough cars to make a good show.

I only booked the Wichita race (Sept 9th) but have not heard from anyone interested in running there. I don't know...do you want to cancel that race date...or do you want to race it?

The track owner has offered free entry and free track food. That is not a bad offer...since he has never seen these cars run. If the crowd likes them I can get a better deal next time. PM me and let me know if you want to make it. Ron.

[Roothawg]

All I can say is stick to your guns. The class will stand the test of time if you are consistent on your rules. There is always gonna be someone that wants to be grandfathered in. Just can't cater to everyone. BTW, I am glad to see this class making a go of it.

[Drewfus]

All I can say is stick to your guns. The class will stand the test of time if you are consistent on your rules. There is always gonna be someone that wants to be grandfathered in. Just can't cater to everyone. BTW, I am glad to see this class making a go of it.

Ditto.

[64 DODGE 440]

All I can say is stick to your guns. The class will stand the test of time if you are consistent on your rules. There is always gonna be someone that wants to be grandfathered in. Just can't cater to everyone. BTW, I am glad to see this class making a go of it.

Amen. It's how it should be. There is still a lot of flex in the rules to be creative and have fun and thats what it's all about.

[Drewfus]

mooving on....

[Ryan]

No sense in arguing... Frankly, there isn't anything to argue about.

[Tman]

Root, the E85 I run is 110 octane.

[Jim Marlett]

As I told Hiney some time back...I could have booked these cars (what ever you want to call them) here in Oklahoma and Kansas for about 8 more races. It does not matter to the strip owners what you call them...as long as you can put together enough cars to make a good show.

I only booked the Wichita race (Sept 9th) but have not heard from anyone interested in running there. I don't know...do you want to cancel that race date...or do you want to race it?

The track owner has offered free entry and free track food. That is not a bad offer...since he has never seen these cars run. If the crowd likes them I can get a better deal next time. PM me and let me know if you want to make it. Ron.
I would really love to see the cars at Wichita, HA/GR or SDRA. WIR is an independent track now and is using IHRA safety rules as the guideline, so no more worry about NHRA rules.

[Roothawg]

Is there a minimum weight?

[Mr. Mac]

Is there a minimum weight?


NO WEIGHT LIMIT
I know what your thinkin and no you cant build it out of paper.:D

[Godzilla]

I would really love to see the cars at Wichita, HA/GR or SDRA. WIR is an independent track now and is using IHRA safety rules as the guideline, so no more worry about NHRA rules.

Right now I have a 4 car field. I will give it a little more time and then I will have to call the track owner and see if he will still promote us as the headline (newspaper/radio/web site). We really need an 8 car field at least.

A thing like this could help get a few cars built in the Wichita area...close enough to pull to Tulsa and MOKAN to race there. I guess we will have to just see what happens. Keep your fingers crossed. Ron.

[Roothawg]

I was thinking of those empty paper towel rolls.....

[REJ]

Root, that ain't gonna work, the rules say minimum 3" diameter tubing. Maybe ya'll have some BIG paper towel rolls out there:eek:

[Roothawg]

Pvc

[dangles]

was woundering if you are allowed to run hiborn mechanical injection as it was around in the eara of the cars or r u only allowed to run carbs

[Old6rodder]

Part of the draw of HA/GR is its concept of "low bucks" racing in the era it exemplifies. Injection set-ups of the period were quite expensive (and hard to tune) and seldom seen in the then still emerging drags. Very few drag cars were high buck then, most were true "barn jobs".
Thus, rules #13 and #16.

That said, that's on this side of the pond, and here for those with that bent the "Gerbils" are developing nicely. A couple builders are even considering "convertible" cars, outfitable for either class.

[64 DODGE 440]

Besides.......if it was easy, everybody would be making one.

Old technology still works, lets keep it alive.

[sgtlethargic]

...

3. All cars must be equipped with a minimum four point roll bar of 1 3/4″ tubing with a main hoop higher than the driver’s head and 2 support bars down to the frame towards the firewall. Tubing must meet NHRA minimum wall thickness for application.

...

Will someone please post an answer to the NHRA wall thickness question in bold, above? I happen to have some 1-3/4" x .120" wall round tubing roll cage pieces laying around :D.

Thanks,
Kurt

[dragrcr50]

Will someone please post an answer to the NHRA wall thickness question in bold, above? I happen to have some 1-3/4" x .120" wall round tubing roll cage pieces laying around :D.

Thanks,
Kurt
your not going to get this thing certified, and nhra looks for .118 in all curves ...........dom in .120 should be fine I would think.....

[348chevy]

OK I have a 1954 270 GMC engine that has a Chev 3 spd behind it and I'm planning on running 3 Rochester 2 jets on a homemade manifold. I will run a 120 in wheel base with a Ford straight axle with a Chev rearend. I understand the rollbar rules but I want to make sure that what I'm building is going to be able to run. Roy

[sgtmcd42]

so far everything sounds like it fits the rules to me.

[Ron Golden]

Roy,

I'm building a 321 cubic inch GMC for our HA/GR dragster. I've already built an intake manifold with 3 Rochester, 2 jet carbs. At present I'm waiting for a set of Howard's aluminum rods for the engine.

Why don't you contact me and we can talk. I may be able to help you on your car.

Ron (Goldenri@ aol.com)
Kansas City, Mo.
816-436-6108

[Rand Man]

I read your profile. I bet you remember how they were built in 1956.

[348chevy]

In 1957 I had a dragster that would fit the bill except it had a roll bar that came to about the middle of my head. It was made from airplane wing struts and had a 3/8X3/8 flathead with 3 97's on it. It went 104 in the low 13's and I couldn't keep rearends together in it. Ran second and high Zeypher gear box and 4.11's on Eythl gas at Pamona. I would like to run in this class because it sure brings back memories. I am going with the GMC because the flatheads are out of my league money wise. I have to sell my 58 Chev Bel Air to finance this project. I have the engine and carbs and I'm going to MO-Kan the 25th and take pictures and measurements so don't be offended by an old Gezzer looking you car over.:D Roy

[sgtlethargic]

In 1957 I had a dragster that would fit the bill except it had a roll bar that came to about the middle of my head. It was made from airplane wing struts and had a 3/8X3/8 flathead with 3 97's on it. It went 104 in the low 13's and I couldn't keep rearends together in it. Ran second and high Zeypher gear box and 4.11's on Eythl gas at Pamona. I would like to run in this class because it sure brings back memories. I am going with the GMC because the flatheads are out of my league money wise. I have to sell my 58 Chev Bel Air to finance this project. I have the engine and carbs and I'm going to MO-Kan the 25th and take pictures and measurements so don't be offended by an old Gezzer looking you car over.:D Roy

Don't be offended if I'm in your way looking at the cars :D.

Thanks,
Kurt

[3wLarry]

I don't post here much...but I've been reading and absorbing all that's been said.

The Ramrods have been guilty of wanting to go faster and quicker... that's why we've been trying out the Holley 4 barrel setup. And we were even talking about going to an automatic tranny...:eek: but not anymore...

We're not happy with the 4 barrel so far...we ran quicker and faster with the 3x2 setup...and the 4 barrel just doesn't look correct.

So look for the Ramrods to have a HA/GR correct car at the Hamb drags...3 pedals, 3 carbs, and all.

If we can get our setup dialed in, we just might be competitive in both classes...:rolleyes:

[Ryan]

and the 4 barrel just doesn't look correct.

Word.

[sgtlethargic]

...
So look for the Ramrods to have a HA/GR correct car at the Hamb drags...3 pedals and all.
...

I'll be lookin'. I can hardly wait!

Thanks,
Kurt

[sgtmcd42]

I have debated this over and over in my head and thought better of posting this...... but here goes nothing.....

I have, over the past couple of years exchanged emails with Don Garlits. I have asked several questions about this and that, but mostly just wanted to hear from one of the originals on how it was back then.

Well, today I just had to ask him the ultimate question: Just what trannies were they running in the early 50's and when did auto's like the powerglide start getting put on dragsters.

Here was his answer(I am paraphrasing ): previous to 1957 everyone was running "sticks". after that, they ran high gear only with a clutch. It wasn't until 1969, yes thats right, 1969 that people put autos in dragsters.

I will probably take some heat for posting this, and as the ha/gr rules have already been decided it doesn't really matter. However, I wanted it validated for myself and thought I would pass it on.

[64 DODGE 440]

I have debated this over and over in my head and thought better of posting this...... but here goes nothing.....

I have, over the past couple of years exchanged emails with Don Garlits. I have asked several questions about this and that, but mostly just wanted to hear from one of the originals on how it was back then.

Well, today I just had to ask him the ultimate question: Just what trannies were they running in the early 50's and when did auto's like the powerglide start getting put on dragsters.

Here was his answer(I am paraphrasing ): previous to 1957 everyone was running "sticks". after that, they ran high gear only with a clutch. It wasn't until 1969, yes thats right, 1969 that people put autos in dragsters.

I will probably take some heat for posting this, and as the ha/gr rules have already been decided it doesn't really matter. However, I wanted it validated for myself and thought I would pass it on.

That in itself sums up the whole point.

[Mr. Mac]

Shawn my man I've known that all along and so does all the other old timers on here. I guess it's just hard for some of them to admit it.:D

[Rand Man]

I wasn't around in 1957. I think I may have figured out (by 1969) that there was sucha thing as drag racing, and I should be there on Sunday, Sunday Sunday, but that's about it. I'll have to take the word of those who went before me, if I want to re-create what they did back then.

[348chevy]

In 1957 there was only one Hotrod that I ever saw at the drags that ran an automatic. It was a 1939 Chevy with an OLDS with 6 97's and ran a hydromatic. I agree with Don Garlits that all the dragsters ran gearboxs usually Cad LaSalles in 1958 on unless you were A fuel or Top Gas, then you ran high gear only. I think that everyone that runs an auto doesn't want to break parts. Some of the gassers started running Hydos by about 1960 or 1961. Doug Cook and Junior Tompson with their 1941 Studebakers ran Hydros. That was before Doug Cook got hooked up with Stone and Woods. These were the old Stick shift hydros and they weighed a ton, they would have never been used in a dragster. In 1961 I tuned and drove a C-gas dragster that ran a Scotty Fenn chassis with a 301 Chev motor and it had a Cad-LaSalle gearbox with a OLDS rearend. I ran many a dragsters and I never saw one with anything but a gearbox. Roy

[sgtmcd42]

I know all you old dudes already knew all that, but as a young dude who was getting conflicting stories from each side of the issue, I just wanted to have it validated by one of my hero's.

[Old6rodder]

Mr Mac,

It ain't hard to admit any of it, just gettin' harder to recall it all. :D

[64 DODGE 440]

Recall what????

[kenagain]

Hey does a stock model b bellhousing and tranny on an A bone motor need a scattershield ? there aint no such thing as a stamped steel bellhousing for those setups that I know of, Also what ever became of the conversation about model A engines with OHV heads on them??
thanks
Ken

[REJ]

Ken, I built my own scattershield out of 1/4" plate for my dodge truck tranny. It is probably as easy to find one for your s as this one.
I have not had any problems at tech with it either.
As far as the ohv for the banger, you would have to PM Ryan on that one.

[SamIyam]

Exactly! I read on another thread about some alleged "Auto Trans 4 barrel carb BS"... well, the only BS is coming from the guys who don't want to play by the rules.

Rules are there to keep the cars looking old and the fun factor high.

Sam.

No sense in arguing... Frankly, there isn't anything to argue about.

[Oilcan Harry]

Wish someone would point us to a mountain of LaSalle transmissions just waiting for a dragster.

[storm king]

I'm glad you all aren't bending to the pressure of some folks to allow the autos and new carbs. They can still run, just not this class. That is great. Maybe 64Dodge440 will back me up when I say in nostalgia racing in general, they have allowed folks to continually 'creep' on allowing 1]aluminium heads,2]four linked suspensions,3]stupid oversized scoops,4] huge, modern sized tires, and on and on to where it is a joke. Keep it true and simple to the INTENT; and screw
the rest.
The car I'm building won't fit that class; but that class does have some interest to me, so I may build something that FITS it, instead of trying to make you bend the class for me.

[GrantH]

when did things like the quarter eliptical rear setups start? is this a modern "fix" for a 4 link style rear setup or was this done back in the day?

[GrantH]

Wish someone would point us to a mountain of LaSalle transmissions just waiting for a dragster.

I am calling a guy this week about a car. if it's able to be parted out I may be able to help you. It's a very solid car though...

[64 DODGE 440]

I'm glad you all aren't bending to the pressure of some folks to allow the autos and new carbs. They can still run, just not this class. That is great. Maybe 64Dodge440 will back me up when I say in nostalgia racing in general, they have allowed folks to continually 'creep' on allowing 1]aluminium heads,2]four linked suspensions,3]stupid oversized scoops,4] huge, modern sized tires, and on and on to where it is a joke. Keep it true and simple to the INTENT; and screw
the rest.
The car I'm building won't fit that class; but that class does have some interest to me, so I may build something that FITS it, instead of trying to make you bend the class for me.

AMEN, current "nostalgia" racing tends to fit into the category of "it sort of looks like the class used to be, with some modern stuff added because we think it's better".

Don't really care for classes where you can "go too fast" and lose. Always figured that the purpose of racing was to see who was the "fastest and quickest". If you are going to have classes, keep it simple, pounds per cubic inch works well, with sub-categories for carburetors, injectors and blowers.

Gas classes burn gasoline, isn't that why they called them "gas class"?

Alcohol classes burn alcohol, and "Fuel classes" burn anything that they want up to and including old gym shorts.

Seems like everyone always tries to find a loophole to get around the rules or make things "more equal". I far prefer "run whatcha brung racing", and let the fastest guy win, and as for the HA/GR class, lets build the cars with imagination, and do it for fun in "the spirit of the Bug".

If someone wants to build a car for a 12.00 breakout class fine, but I feel it would be far better if the class was set for 4 pounds per cu. in. with no minimum weight, vintage carbs in the spirit of the concept and pump gas as the fuel, and if they could run an 11.97 great, they deserve to win.

My goal is to run in the high 12's and psych them on the line.

Also feel that it would be neat to have the tree set for green only, no yellows after you stage and vary the time for the green. Try and bring back the kind of racing they had when the races started with a flag rather than a computer.

End of rant.......off my soap box for now.:D

[348chevy]

I would prefer that they give a guy a couple of flags and let him flag the race like it was until 1964 or 5. But barring that lets go to stage and then green. We could do that I think with the light system they have now with no modifications. I know they can stage and then all yellow then green with no count down of the yellow. I usually leave on the next to last yellow to cut a good light but with the stage then green you would have to react really fast:D. Lets see where did I put my Alzheimer's medicine?;) Roy

[64 DODGE 440]

I would prefer that they give a guy a couple of flags and let him flag the race like it was until 1964 or 5. But barring that lets go to stage and then green. We could do that I think with the light system they have now with no modifications. I know they can stage and then all yellow then green with no count down of the yellow. I usually leave on the next to last yellow to cut a good light but with the stage then green you would have to react really fast:D. Lets see where did I put my Alzheimer's medicine?;) Roy

That's what I'm talking about, real reaction times, rather than anticipating the delay in the tree. Something to keep us old farts sharp and make the racing fun.

[Rick Sis]

This is my first post on the HAMB. I thought I would start here because I have some questions about HA/GR. I really like the HA/GR concept, and whenever I hear about affordable heads up racing, I'm always interested.

I'm from Tulsa, and I'm interested in knowing more about what exactly is going on with the SDRA, such as who is the SDRA, how many cars involved, etc.

In making the decision to build or not, I need to know what I'm getting into locally. I would personally have no interest in an outlaw group. I would want to run with the HAMB rules with everyone else. I was concerned when I have seen opinions like, they have their place to run, let them do as they please, when I would be wanting to run by the rules and this would be my home track, and I wouldn't want to be known as one of the "Tulsa outlaws".

I was at the recent Tulsa nostalgia drags and what I saw seemed to add to the confusion. It was my understanding that this was to be a SDRA event, with a HAMB invitation. I didn't inspect all the cars carefully, but I can only remember seeing 2 cars that were obviously outlaw, the rest and majority were HA/GR. The deviation from the HA/GR rules in these cars should account for at least a solid .7 advantage in a well sorted out car. Enough to ruin heads up racing with the HAMB cars.

Also, I was surprised that this event was promoted with the HAMB name. The announcer always referred to these cars as "HAMB dragsters", call to staging was for "HAMB dragsters", never a mention of SDRA, or anything else.

So, I suppose what I want to know is, does the SDRA just consist of a few cars now running, and are there more people wanting to run Tulsa by HA/GR rules than these few outlaws? I have the feeling that there are probably more than just me that are not building until they see how this plays out.

[mudflap261]

This is my first post on the HAMB. I thought I would start here because I have some questions about HA/GR. I really like the HA/GR concept, and whenever I hear about affordable heads up racing, I'm always interested.

I'm from Tulsa, and I'm interested in knowing more about what exactly is going on with the SDRA, such as who is the SDRA, how many cars involved, etc.

In making the decision to build or not, I need to know what I'm getting into locally. I would personally have no interest in an outlaw group. I would want to run with the HAMB rules with everyone else. I was concerned when I have seen opinions like, they have their place to run, let them do as they please, when I would be wanting to run by the rules and this would be my home track, and I wouldn't want to be known as one of the "Tulsa outlaws".

I was at the recent Tulsa nostalgia drags and what I saw seemed to add to the confusion. It was my understanding that this was to be a SDRA event, with a HAMB invitation. I didn't inspect all the cars carefully, but I can only remember seeing 2 cars that were obviously outlaw, the rest and majority were HA/GR. The deviation from the HA/GR rules in these cars should account for at least a solid .7 advantage in a well sorted out car. Enough to ruin heads up racing with the HAMB cars.

Also, I was surprised that this event was promoted with the HAMB name. The announcer always referred to these cars as "HAMB dragsters", call to staging was for "HAMB dragsters", never a mention of SDRA, or anything else.

So, I suppose what I want to know is, does the SDRA just consist of a few cars now running, and are there more people wanting to run Tulsa by HA/GR rules than these few outlaws? I have the feeling that there are probably more than just me that are not building until they see how this plays out.
If you will come out to TRP today at 1 for tnt I will be more than happy to go over the Hornets car and the rules with you and whats going on Larry Jones

[Rand Man]

The announcer (that day) at Tulsa didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. He kept running his mouth all day on stuff he knew nothing about. We drove over from Arkansas to run with them and had a good time. Outlaws can be beat if you're on your game. Go ahead and build it HAMB rules.

[2b-banjo]

This is my first post on the HAMB. I thought I would start here because I have some questions about HA/GR. I really like the HA/GR concept, and whenever I hear about affordable heads up racing, I'm always interested.

I'm from Tulsa, and I'm interested in knowing more about what exactly is going on with the SDRA, such as who is the SDRA, how many cars involved, etc.

In making the decision to build or not, I need to know what I'm getting into locally. I would personally have no interest in an outlaw group. I would want to run with the HAMB rules with everyone else. I was concerned when I have seen opinions like, they have their place to run, let them do as they please, when I would be wanting to run by the rules and this would be my home track, and I wouldn't want to be known as one of the "Tulsa outlaws".

I was at the recent Tulsa nostalgia drags and what I saw seemed to add to the confusion. It was my understanding that this was to be a SDRA event, with a HAMB invitation. I didn't inspect all the cars carefully, but I can only remember seeing 2 cars that were obviously outlaw, the rest and majority were HA/GR. The deviation from the HA/GR rules in these cars should account for at least a solid .7 advantage in a well sorted out car. Enough to ruin heads up racing with the HAMB cars.

Also, I was surprised that this event was promoted with the HAMB name. The announcer always referred to these cars as "HAMB dragsters", call to staging was for "HAMB dragsters", never a mention of SDRA, or anything else.

So, I suppose what I want to know is, does the SDRA just consist of a few cars now running, and are there more people wanting to run Tulsa by HA/GR rules than these few outlaws? I have the feeling that there are probably more than just me that are not building until they see how this plays out.
I was one of the ha/gr rails that raced at Tulsa that day, the .7 sec gap between my rail and the winner is not based on a auto trans and 4 barrel carb. That is an extremely well built light car. If I lived in Tulsa like you do I would surely build to race the SDRA races, next year they are having 7 races plus the Old Time Drags. Ha/gr you only have one race at Mo/kan. So if you want to race more than just test and tune, this is the way to go. There race format also has the losers in a porch dog group, so you can continue racing. So me and cowboy Bob(another ha/gr) driving 15 hrs can race all day instead of getting put on the trailer if losing the 1st round. My car will stay a ha/gr car, but will be doing some changes to try an be more competetive in the SDRA races. So think about it before you build a car for 1 wk a summer.
2b-banjo

[348chevy]

I was under the idea that the SDRA was the same as HAMB except for the auto trans and 4 barrel carb. Bob Hindman was the person who got me into this thing. I assumed that I could join SDRA as soon as my car was built and could run both HAMB and SDRA. The only thing is I have a stick trans and 3 two barrel carbs. Bob said I could have 348 as my car number. Is there some reason that a car can't run both as long as the rules are met for both? Bob Hindman was really nice to me and was enthusiastic for me to run a car. I chose to run a stick because I wanted to run HAMB also. I plan on adding another roll bar but that shouldn't hurt the status of the car.:confused: Roy

[Mr. Mac]

No reason at all, We run both classes and so does several other guys.

[mudflap261]

YOU or any HAMB car is welcome to run SDRA events L JONES one of the directors .

[bradleybrothers]

hey everyone i am new to all of the rules and regs. Me and my brother 22 and 15 and trying to build a homb dragster for the both of us. From stillwater oklahoma if anybody around this area please contact me have lots of questions. And would apperatice all the help i can get. Thank you

[bradleybrothers]

hey everyone i am new to all of the rules and regs. Me and my brother 22 and 15 and trying to build a homb dragster for the both of us. From stillwater oklahoma if anybody around this area please contact me have lots of questions. And would apperatice all the help i can get. Thank you

[autobilly]

My 2c. Unfortunately rules are req'd. so that were all on the same page. Regarding this, i beleave moparsled hit the nail on the head. Polatics, profesionalization and the ultimate persuit of the lowest et. split hot rods and drag racing, thus ending the days of the "spirit" of which we seek to rekindle/replicate.

[64 DODGE 440]

My 2c. Unfortunately rules are req'd. so that were all on the same page. Regarding this, i beleave moparsled hit the nail on the head. Polatics, profesionalization and the persuit of ultimate performance split hot rods and drag racing, thus ending the days of the "spirit" of which we seek to rekindle/replicate.

Therefore, it's our job to rekindle the flame and keep that spirit. We may have a rough road to travel in this quest, but with true hot rodder's ingenuity and determination we can succeed. As the years pass, and our origins fade, we need to keep the vision and retain some of "where it all began" in action and not stored away in a museum, but out front where it can be enjoyed and savored, planting the seeds in those who will keep the reality alive.

[Tman]

bttt

[17dracing]

Hey guys I'm new to this class , but I'm going to build one anyways ,So here is my question ! Can I use a chopped and narrowed 46 international truck cab for my body ? Or do I need to stay with the classic tub ? Going to be running a straight 6 also !!!!

[FiddyFour]

you COULD build a body like that, but its gonna weigh a few hunnert pounds more'n it needs to

[Old6rodder]

Howdy, from a relocated Hoosier.

Some of my friends and I've considered eventual drop-on bodies for our cars. Haven't done anything as yet but several ideas have been brought up.

Perhaps you could build a basic car, then do something in that vein.

[GMC BUBBA]

Hey guys I'm new to this class , but I'm going to build one anyways ,So here is my question ! Can I use a chopped and narrowed 46 international truck cab for my body ? Or do I need to stay with the classic tub ? Going to be running a straight 6 also !!!!


Shouldnt be a problem, stay with the 1962 and older parts etc.
Out friends overseas have built a couple with roadster bodies etc and they look pretty good.
A 46 International cut down to size would be pretty appropiate.......study some of the builds from drewfus on this forum...

Jim

[jeff/21]

we ran alot of races with flaggers it was easy to anticipate when the flag would drop when we went to a new track the first thing was to study the flagman

[HAMBstirrer]

Well I have just about finished my second HA/GR car. I have adhered to the rules as strictly as they are written. Maybe I just think toooooo far out of the square for most people. 225 errect six pre 1962, 3 Ford 97's on a custom manifold, 3 speed with a straight through home built shifter, 4.11 : 1 borg warner diff. 6 point roll cage. Based on a 1924 Morris Cowely chassie and suspension.
Tell me what you fellas in the USA think? The Slicks? just a shit stir. :D

[ThingyM]

I'll tell ya what I think, I think that is one nice piece of rolling stock..I would be proud to have something like that in my garage.. You guys downunder sure build some nice pieces.. ....Dick M.....

[mudflap261]

m mighty slick most of the early drag cars were sprint cars thats what yours reminds me of

[64 DODGE 440]

Y'all done good mate!! Let us know how it runs.

[Toymaker]

I'll tell ya what I think, I think that is one nice piece of rolling stock..I would be proud to have something like that in my garage.. You guys downunder sure build some nice pieces.. ....Dick M.....
What Dick said!

[Old6rodder]

Jewelry, absolutely jewelry. :cool:

[bobw]

Man, that's a truely unique machine. Looks like it might be street legal too??? Do you have build pictures you could share?

[ScottV]

I absolutely love the front wheels ... any chance at seeing it at the H.A.M.B. Drags this year ???

* OK, I realized now that you are Down Unda * But that is a lame excuse for not coming !!!

[hotrodbob]

So are we saying a T roadster body could go on these cars legal for class and all?

[Old6rodder]

Legal, yep. Light, nope. :D

[hotrodbob]

Cool...Thanks

[64 DODGE 440]

We would love to put a Bantam on ours.:D

[ScottV]

We would love to put a Bantam on ours.:D

Filled with holes no doubt !!!???!!! :p