Tacky AV8s [Archive] - THE H.A.M.B.

zonkola

05-23-2004, 02:25 PM

One of the most popular traditional hot rods would have to be a '29 roadster on '32 rails. However, despite the widely known fact that you must pinch the '32 rails to fit the '29 cowl in order to build a tasteful roadster, too many ignorant young punks ignore this simple directive and embarrass themselves by building tacky AV8s.

Well listen up, young bucks: It's time for some tough love, so pick up the crayon, bust through that PBR fog, and take some notes. Learn from these photos and maybe you can avoid committing the hot rodding equivalent of getting caught drunk in the closet with your tongue in your cousin's ear.

To kick off today's lesson, here's an AV8 that's as unpinched as an ugly fat man wearing all green on St. Patty's day. What, did Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder team up on this build?

http://www.zonk.com/pub/av8-1.jpg

Oh, and here's a close-up for you short bus riders out there. See that frame rail sticking out like a two-bit hooker wearing a pink leather mini to church? The horror.

http://www.zonk.com/pub/av8-diagram.gif

Another fat rail flop. I'd rather hot rod a Yugo with a Briggs & Stratton engine than turn a wrench on this steaming pile. I bet the owner keeps the garage lights turned off to keep the neighbors from complaining about this horse-faced heap.

http://www.zonk.com/pub/av8-2.jpg

Jane, you ignorant slut. The only thing pinched here is my nose as I try to block out the stench. Listen here, mullet-boy, why not butcher a Pinto instead? Get back out on the street and sell some pencils with the other wannabe Elvi.

http://www.zonk.com/pub/av8-3.jpg

This is just a small sampling of monstrosities from the photographic body of evidence available to us, but the point is clear: Pinch that frame, spudboy! Don't repeat the sins of clueless past hot rodders. People will accuse you of having no taste, or worse, building hot rods in Florida.

And remember, if you've already built an unpinched AV8, we're not laughing with you--we're laughing at you.

NortonG

05-23-2004, 02:29 PM

Thank's for the cool pics you nut. LOL http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hatch

05-23-2004, 02:33 PM

Gotta be something in the water where you live. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Paul

05-23-2004, 02:37 PM

thank's for the blow up detail of the first picture,

I was too mesmerized by the striped pickup in the background to even see the hideous misalignment!

Paul

gregg

05-23-2004, 02:40 PM

When I build my next one I'll be sure to check with you for the proper "ZONKOLA RULES of RODDING". Wouldn't want to offend, ya know. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 02:45 PM

I need help myself, thanks for the support brother. You are a stand up citizen.

fab32

05-23-2004, 03:01 PM

Well! There should be no excuses from now on about how to do it PROPERLY. I only hope Ryan doesn't delete this and destroy the evidence of so much incompetent hot rod building. I can only imagine how much courage it took to post those but I'm glad someone one did. You've definitly got a couple of ATTABOYS coming on your reportcard. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank

RotHod

05-23-2004, 03:13 PM

I agree...everyone should build copy cat clone shit boxes just to please those that think that things have to be done a their way. Then everything will be the same all nice and uniform, what a bore!

daren

05-23-2004, 03:15 PM

You know, i'm gonna fly against the wind here. I don't know much about hotrods since i've never owned one or built one from the ground up so take this as you may. I find it sad to think there are folks out there who still think there are "rules" to this hobby we enjoy. Somehow I think the folks who feel like this aren't having as much fun as they could be. Seems some people take this stuff to seriously.

I guess if I ever have enough money to own or build an AV8 like the "steaming pile" you pictured, people can laugh all they want, i'm not gonna hear em' due to the wind noise and engine noise while i'm driving the wheels off of it, having FUN!

RotHod

05-23-2004, 03:17 PM

I'll take one steaming pile myself, to go please!

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Seems some people take this stuff to seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody that builds a car better take it seriously!
And if you take the trouble to make it safe and useble, you might as well get the small stuff right too.
( and I dont mean the unpinched frame, that is right for that style ).
The real trouble is that some people are taking themself too seriously...

Paul

05-23-2004, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The real trouble is that some people are taking themself too seriously...

[/ QUOTE ]

you're kidding, right? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The real trouble is that some people are taking themself too seriously...

[/ QUOTE ]

you're kidding, right? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, what the fuck do I know... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 03:38 PM

ok, it's obvious not everyone got this post. Zonkola's point is that they dont need to be pinched. I admit, if I was buying a repop frame for a 28-31 roadster, I probably would buy one pinched becasue the lines flow nice but I wouldnt pinch a stock 32 frame. I did that once with my dad years ago for my first 29 and it was a real pain in the ass.

ok, now back to the confusion.

FKNPOZER

05-23-2004, 03:41 PM

the toilet paper goes over not under MEATHEAD!.....
who gives a fuck.
elitist snob knowledge that makes those "in the know" feel better than the rest of us

daren

05-23-2004, 03:45 PM

So lets turn this post around, in fact lets turn it into a tech post! Instead of a shit slinging name calling post, which this one is on its way to being, lets make it good. Could someone show me pics on how you pinch the frame rails the right way?

And yes if I was buying a repop frame for a 29 body i'd order it pinched too. But is it worth the trouble if I had an original one? Oh and i'm sorry if my above post got out of hand, I realized that zonkola was joking after I posted what I did! sorry... I'll shut my pie hole now.

Rocky

05-23-2004, 03:54 PM

While it is EXTREMELY important to pinch your 32 rails to match your 28-29 cowl, it pales in comparison to the importance of getting all the flats on your hex-head fasteners and all the slots in your screws pointed in the same direction.....especially on body mount bolts.

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While it is EXTREMELY important to pinch your 32 rails to match your 28-29 cowl, it pales in comparison to the importance of getting all the flats on your hex-head fasteners and all the slots in your screws pointed in the same direction.....especially on body mount bolts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yeah, but that is for aerodynamic reasons... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 04:00 PM

ok. this is how I did it. measure the frame and square it. Once square measure the center point on each front and rear cross member. Run a string line from fron to back exactly in the middle.
Now measure the front end of the cowl on your roadster 28-29 or 30-31, then measure the distance at the mounting point on your frame and divide the difference by 2.

It really is like 5/8 or so. then split the top and bottom "C" portion of the frame and heat and push it to exactly the same distance on both sides. reweld and enjoy. you can do it without cutting but that's how I did it. Make sure you do them both even and re-check the frame for square. Perhaps even box the frame....

However, the body still doesnt fit right, now whack out the bottom of the back end and contour the cowl to fit the smile in the frame (whick can be done about 1,000 ways)

or, do nothing as Zonkola suggests and still have a cool ass car. do not, however forget to wire all your bolts together.

zgears

05-23-2004, 04:23 PM

are you shiting me?.. dumb joke or asshole gold chainer? i cant tell. what im i supose to do if i get another 32 body?

Germ

05-23-2004, 04:28 PM

Yeah at LEAST someone UNDERSTANDS why the fuck we GO the EXTRA route to make something "CORRECT"

It's the UGLIEST THING in the world without the FRAME PINCHED,,

I like this POST..

Seems to be FUCKING RIGHT ON...

XOXOXOXO
GERM

Farmer

05-23-2004, 04:33 PM

THis post is exactly what I was gonna ask about for a friend today. We need to see pics or be given some details about how to cut and where to cut the rear on a 5W coupe to fit on duece rails.,.....Now, here's the exception..his rails are setup for an A body already, but the rear of the coupe body don't sit on the duece rails flush due to the hump in the rear that model A rails don't have. So....where do we cut and or how do we go about laying that 5W body down on them rails? We are assuming there has to be some cutting done in the rear inner quarter/floor bracing. Enlighten us with your Elitist Gold chainer wisdom.....(just kidding, some of us actually like to do it the right way if we can) Thanks!!
john

Germ

05-23-2004, 04:39 PM

OK IF you "DONT PINCH the RAILS, People who BUILD hot rods to resemble something that SHOWS craftmanship, will walk right BY...

To Pitch or Not to PINCH is Like Not wiping your ass before you pull up your paints..

I think YOUR GAY If you think that UN PINCHED would even APPEAR to look OK...

zonkola

05-23-2004, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So lets turn this post around, in fact lets turn it into a tech post! Instead of a shit slinging name calling post, which this one is on its way to being, lets make it good. Could someone show me pics on how you pinch the frame rails the right way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gooch just provided some good info on this. For further reference, I suggest picking up a copy of Mike Bishop (AV8 here on the HAMB) and Vern Tardel's book, "How to Build a Traditional Ford Hot Rod", which has a drawing and more info for this modification along with tons of other great info on building an AV8.

Ranting aside, I dig AV8s on either pinched or unpinched '32 rails if they're built well. If I were building one for myself I'd pick up a set of pinched frame rails as the foundation 'cause it does make the lines flow a bit better. However, if I set out to build a truly period-correct late forties flathead-powered roadster I'd go with an unpinched frame (one that still had the holes that were used to mount the fenders and running boards), a near-stock, unfilled '32 grille shell, and a not-too-low stance.

And I'd paint it black. But then I tend to want to paint everything black. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Paul

05-23-2004, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the toilet paper goes over not under MEATHEAD!.....
who gives a fuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

as long as it goes DOWN when you pull on it, and only after you pinch it off.

...........

can you really tell the difference flat out at a hunnert and twenny in the dirt?

Paul

Farmer

05-23-2004, 04:48 PM

THe rails I'm talking about and asking info on ARE setup for an A already. The 5W A coupe cowl is right on, but the rear of the coupe doesn't 'plop' down on the rails, there's a gap at the rear end right below the rear quarters/wheel wells. So, my question is to those who have done this before....did you have to cut the inner floor bracing? or what did you do to make yours sit down on the rails. I have the Tardel AV8 book but didn't see much info on this. Again, the crossmembers in the 32 rails are A members. I measured them with my schlong for accuracy. Any info out there? SamIyam? Germ? Dr. J? Nads? Rocky? AV8?

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 04:52 PM

the early cars were more into speed and ease I guess, the 5/8 dont bug me so much. I have had both and really dont care. They are just A's.

this one aint pinched, but then again a girl drives it.

Sorry, its the only shot of it I have and those damn lights are kinda in the way.

zonkola

05-23-2004, 04:53 PM

FarmerJohn - If you'd like to see some subtle but brilliant pinch and channel work on a '31 coupe/'32 rails combo, check out this post by Rolf. He's got the eye and the skills--I can't wait to see the finished car:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=315393

zgears

05-23-2004, 04:58 PM

how common was it in the back in day? i wonder.. im not trying to get in a pissing match with anybody. its just that i may get a 32 body at some point. it does seam like spilting hairs..

Farmer

05-23-2004, 05:10 PM

Zonkola, thanks for the post link!!! with Gooch's info and that link I think we have some good ideas and direction now.
The body my friend got last night is Solid and Nice. All complete minus the decklid, so we didn't want to just start cutting floor bracing and stuff till we knew what the hell we were doing. Thanks you guys!
john

zonkola

05-23-2004, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how common was it in the back in day? i wonder.. im not trying to get in a pissing match with anybody. its just that i may get a 32 body at some point. it does seam like spilting hairs..

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't there, but I see a lot of unpinched rails in the books I have on the subject by Montgomery, Batchelor, Cox, and others. By the way, the last picture I posted was of Manny Betes' car, which had the fastest time (107.52 mph) at Rosamond in 1942 despite unpinched rails.

(Of course if he would have pinched the rails he probably would have broken 150 and had better luck with the chicks.)

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 05:12 PM

some did, most didnt. Look at the first shot Zonkola posted of that juicy gold one.... that car is perfect. Although people I respect have strong feelings about this subject both ways..... Me and Alex Shifter got into it about this subject years ago. Good times.
I think both ways look good.

Kojack

05-23-2004, 05:13 PM

I just want a hot rod.

Artiki

05-23-2004, 05:15 PM

"Of course if he would have pinched the rails he probably would have broken 150 and had better luck with the chicks"

ROFLMFAO....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

choprods

05-23-2004, 05:16 PM

doesnt matter how ya do it-The Deuce guys will always think you shoulda had a deuce on them Deuce rails! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Im puttin my 31 on my 32 frame the way it works out best for me-Dont care what anybody says or thinks,cause its all I have and Im happy with it..... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

zonkola

05-23-2004, 05:16 PM

FarmerJohn - Also check out C9's contribution to this post, which is a recap of an article he wrote for Shop Rag magazine. He shows some specific modifications to the rear of the frame that help the body sit nicely:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=400114

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 05:23 PM

There is a 3rd way of doing it, and its what I did on my '28 Roadster.
I left the rails unpinched, widened the cowl in the firewall area, and made it fit a '30/'31 Firewall...
I also slid the frame back, so the line in the frame ends exactly at the firewall ( this gives me a perfect echo between it and the lower bead line on the '28 cowl...)

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 05:27 PM

that's flat-out wrong. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

zonkola

05-23-2004, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a 3rd way of doing it, and its what I did on my '28 Roadster.
I left the rails unpinched, widened the cowl in the firewall area, and made it fit a '30/'31 Firewall...
I also slid the frame back, so the line in the frame ends exactly at the firewall ( this gives me a perfect echo between it and the lower bead line on the '28 cowl...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I've wondered about widening the '29 cowl, but I've never heard of anyone doing it. Do you have photos?

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that's flat-out wrong. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know...
One of these days I'll buy a tape measure... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

klazurfer

05-23-2004, 05:33 PM

Wee-bit O/T , but could someone please exsplain this .
Could it be a anti-theft device ?? or maybee the owner was a fighter pilot in WWII .. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

05-23-2004, 05:36 PM

serious though, didnt pulling the cowl apart distort the door fit at all? Im just thinking cause and effect here.

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have photos?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look for some that will show that.
My car is scratch built, though, I did not start with a complete body or frame.
So the contours are not like a stock '32 frame or a '28 body.
Both were tweaked to meet somewhere in the middle, and I lenghtened the frame in the engine bay area by using the front part of a Model A frame...

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
serious though, didnt pulling the cowl apart distort the door fit at all? Im just thinking cause and effect here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends how you do it.
You can pivot them out on the hinge centerline, or you can cut the skin loose from the A pillar.
But the doors overlap the body so it is not to bad either way.
It is only metal, It will move... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 07:34 PM

Pic for Zonkola.

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 07:35 PM

Fit of the door to the A pillar

metalshapes

05-23-2004, 07:36 PM

One more...

Farmer

05-23-2004, 07:46 PM

klaz surfer....i was looking at that and my only guess is that 1.
he has no e-brake, and and automatic tranny with the parking pin sheared off in the tranny, so he has no way of keeping his car from rolling away. Or, he was a fighter pilot in ww2. haha. I was in the Air Force and we had to chalk the wheels on all the flightline vehicles. I did it for so long in military I almost went to grab for some chalks in my regular car when I was off work sometimes! Maybe this guy just felt more secure that way... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Farmer

05-23-2004, 07:49 PM

Metalshapes....you made that work nicely. Looks TITS dude. at least that's my opinion.

zonkola

05-23-2004, 08:02 PM

Metalshapes - Interesting stuff. I'd like to see the rest of the car if you've got any more photos lying around...

fab32

05-23-2004, 08:29 PM

zgears, Not to foster a pissing match but you mention "I may get a '32 body at some point". If you do I doubt you will be dismantling a car to replace a body. In my experieance I've never seen this happen. What would be the point? If you have a complete car sell it and build another chassis for the '32 body. A finished,running car will sell for more than a pile of pieces. If you have a '32 body take the money from the sale and build another '32 chassis with the changes you will undoubtly want to make and mount the '32 on it. Done Deal!

Frank

zgears

05-23-2004, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the point?
Frank

[/ QUOTE ] minimum down time... drive car, build model A rolling/driving chassis, change body, sell 29, buy 32 body. at least thats how i see it in my head.

fab32

05-23-2004, 09:01 PM

Your thinking is light years ahead of me. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I guess I wouldn't want to miss the 3/4 weeks of roadster driving in the middle of a balmy Michigan winter (average temp below 20 degrees) to build another '32 chassis.

Frank

Nads

05-23-2004, 09:07 PM

metalshapes rules.

Zonkola, I love your writing.

I pinched my rails, right out from the junkyard owner's nose.

metalshapes

05-24-2004, 12:32 AM

Thanks guys.
One more for Zonkola...

Paul

05-24-2004, 12:48 AM

damn, metalshapes

every time I see your car...

it is so, cool..

it has the classic lines of..

like a Deusenberg or something.

Paul

thirtytwo

05-24-2004, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys.
One more for Zonkola...

[/ QUOTE ]

hey that roof looks pretty bitchin

...............pinched....... un-pinched whatever??? i have only seen evidence of a couple of cars "back in the day that did this..... nimrod has a awesome 29 on deuce rails "dead-on" proportions ...that car will stop you in your tracks when you see it, guess what...not pinched that car has to rate in the top 5 or 10 best 29s ever....

zonkola

05-24-2004, 01:29 AM

Nice. Are you going to leave it as is, or do you have more plans for it?

metalshapes

05-24-2004, 01:45 AM

The next thing I'll built for it is a hood top ( no sides ).
I have to finish some welds that are just tacked right now,
and there are some bullit holes and rust I will have to fix.
Then I am going to completely blow it apart for Body and Paint work, and upholstery...

zonkola

05-24-2004, 01:58 AM

Metalshapes - Cool, I like them thar painted cars myself. I really like the direction yours is headed. It might be the angle of the photo, but it looks like you'll need to lower and/or chop the grille shell to keep the hood from running uphill, am I right?

ThirtyTwo - I took a bunch of photos of Nimrod's A at last year's Billetproof, before he was a HAMBer. I've never met him, but his roadster is one of my all-time favorites as well. I honestly hadn't noticed that his rails weren't pinched, but I checked some of the side shots I took and you're right--I think it's just less noticeable on a black car. Here's his roadster:

29EHV8

05-24-2004, 02:01 AM

I didn't pinch my rails and I'm not gay either! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
zgears,you and I think the same.
metalshapes,love that car.
zonkola,great post.
farmer,I can take some pics this week of the underside of my car if you wanna see how I did the rear of it......Shiny

thirtytwo

05-24-2004, 02:09 AM

in my opinion that car is perfect example of a 29, lots of attention to detail, good eye....... i talked with him very briefly at b-ville last year , ive seen that car poppin up since 99 at events i have been at, until i met him i thought a european rodder put it together cause they seem to understand the details, must be all the ferarris and stuff????

metalshapes

05-24-2004, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
am I right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly, yes you are...
And that is going to be a big job.
To lower the Grilleshell I will have to lower the Radiator, and to lower the Radiator I will have to cut the front X member out and weld it back in a little lower.
Oh well... It will give me a chance to match the angle of the spring with the Caster of the Front Axle now that I have changed that...

thirtytwo

05-24-2004, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
am I right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly, yes you are...
And that is going to be a big job.
To lower the Grilleshell I will have to lower the Radiator, and to lower the Radiator I will have to cut the front X member out and weld it back in a little lower.
Oh well... It will give me a chance to match the angle of the spring with the Caster of the Front Axle now that I have changed that...

[/ QUOTE ] why not a shorter radiator??? if you lower your cross, then your car will be higher... i really dig the way it sits now,,, you can always make up for the caster by bendin the perches...old school style!!!

metalshapes

05-24-2004, 02:29 AM

It is a 5" chopped Radiator already.
It will cool the Blown SBC in normal traffic ( including stoplights etc ), but it will over heat it I will let it idle for a longer time.
The change will only be about 3/4", so the framehorns will be higher by that much.
Measured at the cowl it should be no more than about 1/2", and the Grilleshell will stay the same distance from the ground...

Hackerbilt

05-24-2004, 10:49 AM

I think the ROCK is right...if your nuts are in alignment, all things are cool!

Metalshapes and all the others here who burned their copy of the "Book of Accepted Hot Rod Modifications" are the guys to learn from.
Do it your way...but do it your way...CORRECTLY.

I'm thinking here...GOD help you all...http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

It seems to me that Hot Rodding ended in the early sixties... It eventually revived itself into a catalogue era where "acceptance" and "conformity" is more important than "Cutting edge". Seems only "BIG money" can send you down the cutting edge path because you must BUY cutting edge. Thats just WRONG.

I look at the HAMB as a new branch of that tree that almost died in the sixties...you guys are the ones who will and have put pure, personal HOT ROD individuality back at the forefront.

Don't ever conform because of PEER pressure...do stuff because you WANT to do it, not because you were told to do it.

If someone doesn't get it then thats sad but hey...
can't please everyone and why would you want to?

Thats just looking for ACCEPTANCE...and you know where that leads.

Pinched or unpinched? Who am I to tell you guys what to do... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bill