ID my new Flathead please. Bruce or anyone

[AV8-Rider]

I found a new interesting foundation for a hot flathead earlier this summer. I have a 99 casting Merc 39-42 I planned on using but a better deal came up.

Found a block that had been bored incl. new pistons. It also has a realy nice port job on it and are made ready for larger intake valves. Valves was also included.

Just like my Merc block this new one has keystone shaped water channels on the deck. It's of course a 24 stud.
The nr. stamped in on the deck under the intake is: 5C 5120
The block was factory relieved.

Can anyone identify this. It's interesting to know what it realy is. I have an idea but it would be realy interesting to see what you guys come up with this time.

I'm starting on the buildup on this baby these days. Going in my late 40's style AV8.
FLATHEADS ARE FUN!!!!

Paul

[Bruce Lancaster]

Hmmmm....Keystones=1942 or earlier, but likely through 1945 wartime stuff, who knows how long in GB where they made '37 engines into the fifties...
IF the 5C relates to Ford model number system at all, it would indicate 1945 commercial, perfectly reasonable since the 59A's came very late in 1945. C for Canada would come at front.
If military, most applications would have oversized oil holes in back. You didn't mention any German or GB casting indicators.
Any heads with it? Those actually have most of the info on prewar blocks. The bores also would help indicate age--if the engine never had factory sleeves (bore would have to be significantly enlarged and might still have a step at top), then it's a late prewar block.
The 3 3/16 blocks were very common in big trucks and industrial uses, and had lots of military uses of course.
I'd love to hear what you know of its history and provenance.
Also, what kind of rear main seal does it have? That also has date links.

[AV8-Rider]

HEY

That was quick Bruce. I know very little of it's history but my guess was military origin. I'll look more closely into it the next time I am at the motorshop where I'll perform the work. I'll take so pics.

No original heads for it. I bought it from a guy that had some military connetictions. Among the parts following the block was a NOS flywheel from an army storage according to the seller.
The block was intended for the Norwegian build racer, now Ardun powered, I posted pics of earlier this spring for those remembering. Had to change block 'cause of the relieving.

It may very well be a comercial block as well.
I'll get back with more later.
Thanks so far. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Paul

[Bruce Lancaster]

Eyeball the oil passage openings at rear of block. Normal would be one vertical, one horizontal, both I think 1/4" pipe, which is not a real 1/4 anything but a size you can just start to get a finger into. Some mil applications have two verticals substantially larger for full flow filter or cooler. The 5C # is very likely a false lead, just a rebuilders code or some forgotten inventory number. Any head, ignition, clutch parts or anything else that might be original to the engine would be interesting clues. Also examine bellhousing for any casting marks.

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a 99 casting Merc 39-42...
Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Vern Tardel, Mike Bishop's, (av8), friend is always looking for "99's" for his Bonneville racer.

If you plan to "let it go"; contact av8.

[AV8-Rider]

The "spare" 99 casting I have will stay under a blanket at the back of the garage for a rainy day.
Who knows what happens when my AV8 is finished.

I'll look more closely into it Bruce. I love this "Inspector Flathead" stuff.

Paul

[Bruce Lancaster]

I did some inconclusive digging in my archives bunker last night. Along with the "99" stamp that many but not all 99's get on the manifold surface of block, there may be an "HS" (hardened sleeve) to ID engines that originally had replaceable sleeves. I was trying to figure out which prewars had the sleeves by year, and although nothing in the books was very definite it seemed that sleeved and unsleeved blocks were perhaps used all years, '39-42. My impression from previous reading is that most '39-40 had sleeves, later didn't. How oversize is yours? Is there any trace of a step at the top of the bores?

[AV8-Rider]

Hi again

I hope to be able to get by the shop this weekend to find some answers Bruce. Things been a little crazy around here the last week. work work work

The block is 060 overbore.
Paul

[AV8-Rider]

Hi again Bruce

Here are at last some more info on my block. I have looked all over it for stampings and cast in codes etc.

On the front end I found the "5C 5120" as I said before. A little towards the back on the same side of the deck there are an "E"

In front of the front-right cylinder are a cast in nr. #19# or perhaps 79. very hard to tell due to a rough cast. Copy of a screw head on each side of it.

On the back of the right side of the top deck are another "5" stamped in.

On the bellhousing there are a cast in # 5 and a circle with
16
5 F

in it.

I have enclosed some pics of it.
Do you make anything out of it??


You mentioned the oil passage openings and as you see there are one vertical and one horisontal. I assumed you meant the outside openings for filters etc.

[AV8-Rider]

more pics

[AV8-Rider]

bellhousing

[AV8-Rider]

oil passages

[AV8-Rider]

You also had some comments on sleeved blocks. I can not see any sign of any sleeves. The block where factory relieved.

[AV8-Rider]

The next step now is to remowe all studs, bearings and grind up the valveseats. Boil the block and start assembly.
I went over the deck with an abrasive cloth to make sure everything was alright.
And what did I find. Yupp a crack of course. But I have been told this one is not to worry about. But I had a very rapidly encreasing pulse there. Releived a few hundred words never found in the "good book". http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I never expected to find craks in a block that someone put all this porting work in. It is also bored with new pistons.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I think that's just a gaggle of casting date and inspection codes--but the possible "19" is intriguing, as that is the designation for 1941 3 3/16" engines. I don't have any more insight than that .

[AV8-Rider]

Thanks Bruce.

May very well be so that this is a 41. Does it mean that it narrows down to truck or millitary? Did all the Mercs have casting # 99?

If that is so it will from now be adressed: Mr. 41, the old trucker. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

99-19 type blocks went into Mercs, big trucks, industrial use, some military production, and the occasional Ford with a special order. I think it is impossible to determine without provenance/cylinder heads/whatever beyond the block. Odd miscellaneous fact: Sometime around 1941, Ford stopped stamping the little "99" in the manifold area as a clue for the assembly line folks, and started painting the big bore engines blue instead of the Ford green. After the war, the small bore engines were gone (except for some Canadian and overseas use), and all the 59A's were probably blue. Did the hot tank leave any traces of paint??

[Digger_Dave]

Bruce, av8 (Mr Bishop) had asked me to keep an eye out for "99" blocks.

He told me that Vern Tardel prefered these blocks for his Bonneville car because they were cast with a higher nickel content and as a result stood up to the BIG blowers he runs on his race car.

I did find him one; but the side was broken out because someone had left water in the cooling jackets and the water froze.

The "99" I found was out of a big (5 ton?) Merc truck.

Mike told me that there were "99A" and "99T" engines made.

[AV8-Rider]

Lookes like this is going to end as a mistery. Does not realy mater anyway as long as it will do it's job in my roadster.
I have not hot tanked it yet. I will scrape off some of that black paint and see what I can find underneath.

Appreciate your efforts Bruce. I'm allways learning something when you are around.


Earlier tonight, it's 21.50 over here, I bought an oilpan and a 2-bolt timing cover I have been looking fore. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The future home of Mr. 41.

[Bruce Lancaster]

99A=passenger, 99T=truck. I think only difference was heads.
Car and truck model designations changed annually--99A='39 Merc, 09A='40--but engine designations only changed when there were design changes. I think first Merc change was '42, 29A.

[AV8-Rider]

We went over this theme a lot about a year ago.

I had an engine marked, casting 29 with 9T on the sylinder head. Keystone shaped waterholes and 3 3/16 bore,remember Bruce?


I never get tired of learning about old flatheads though.