Barn Job #18 - Build thread (please do not respond here)

[Old6rodder]

HA/GR #18 '07/'08 build thread.
Link to '09 build thread (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3744841#post3744841)

Name: "Barn Job #18" (Build photos link) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9255485@N04/sets/72157600488919503/)
Status: Racing
Team: "Geezerspeed"

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/old6rodder/IMG_7248.jpg

Engine: '60 225" Chrysler "slant" six
Carbs: three HIF6 SUs
Gearbox: '62 Valiant 3 sp.
Rear end: '62 Valiant 7.25", 4.10>1
Wheelbase: 124"

'08 ET: 14.095
'08 MPH: 93.14
Records:
First running HA/GR, left coast.
Winner, 1st HA/GR "meet", left coast.
'08 quickest HA/GR, left coast.
'08 fastest HA/GR, left coast.

[Rootie Kazoootie]

Neat stuff, whatcha got planned for a body?

[Rand Man]

Looks like a rear engine job. Keep the pics coming. would like to see more.

[64 DODGE 440]

Sorry folks,

In my vast computer ignorance I hadn't noticed that my album updates weren't showing up through this link. I've discerned and corrected my mistake.

I also tried to delete the rather silly "Please do not respond here." entry in the title, but just don't have the savvy to manage that as yet.

My apologies. :o

Hey Old6, ain't compoopers grand? Thanks for the hambster seeds, hope to post some progress before the year departs.

[Mr. Mac]

Very Interesting!

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, she's a middie. A bit longer than we wanted on the wheels at 138" the first season due to running a full length gearbox, but we're planning to shorten it (and the back of the frame) to 124" for next year (one of the reasons the master cyl. is forward of the rear end a tad).

On the body; we got some decent tubing for a cage that'll run from our toes to the roll bar (with back struts, just to cover all bets) as we're reasonably safety minded (keeps the wives a bit quieter, you know). The front two hoops will be hidden inside (and supporting) a simple wrapped sheet metal cowl. A flat nose plate of the heavier floorpan material and then a pair of side panels back to the roll bar and that's about it. Pretty straightforward stuff. We'll be mocking it up in cardboard first, so I'll add a couple shots of that when we get there.

Now that I know I have to "publicize" the album entries individually I promise to keep it up better. :o
Is my computer ignorance level up to "half vast" yet? :D

ps. If we can wangle a trailer, we'll haul'er (at whatever stage we have'er) to Palmdale for the ANRA opener. With'er or without'er we're hoping to see some of you gentlemen (and your cars as well) there for the exhibition.

pps. There just may be another flattie six one ("bug" layout, not middie) abuildin' before long. :D No further hints from me.


Have fun.

[Old6rodder]

We got the front wheels back today, Barn Job #18's now officially a "roller". :D Still with the temporary 13"ers on the rear but at least she's hit the ground. :cool:

Dug up a trailer of sorts so we'll haul'er along with us to Palmdale tomorrow for show & tell while you runners are, well, uh ................. running.
We hope to be running for the June meet at Bakersfield. If not, then more than likely by the August one.

We'll update the album after the meet, hopefully with some nicer pictures than we've gotten in there so far.

[Mr. Mac]

Cool beans,Keep up the good work. Have fun at Palmdale and take pics. No fun for us this weekend cold and rain.

[alteredpilot]

thanks again for bringing the rig out to the sand-plex today.

your little hot rod is awesome, drew lots of attention and lots of questions. just what we needed.

see y'all in bakersfield!

[Old6rodder]

You're more than welcome, alteredpilot, and we'll be there (hopefully running).

OK, got a few new photos into the album from Palmdale (and in actual daylight too) with more painted pieces and the front wheels on.

[War 'n Petes Racing]

Man that thing looks cool and frightening, all at the same time. can't wait to see it finished.

-Pete.

[Old6rodder]

A couple hard weeks worth of evenings at it and we now have the cage and steering in.
Photos are in the album.

Onward, ever onward ............. :cool:

[Mr. Mac]

Veeeery Clever,keep up the good work.

[Toymaker]

Looks Great......... See Ya in Bakersfield!

[Old6rodder]

Howdy gentlemen,

It's been a bit slow lately but I added some photos of the clutch arm rework and our seat belt set-up.

Nailed down a trailer but don't have pictures of that yet.

Looking forward to Bakersfield.

[Old6rodder]

What with all the angst around lately I figured the Barn Job could use some skin for self protection (mine's already up to it). :D

So I indulged myself and spent a couple days doing the body and I really like the way it came out.
I'll try to have some paint on'er for Bakersfield, but mostly I'm just trying to get'er running. Lots of wiring and hosing and such to go yet but all the mechanical linkages are in and adjusted.

Put some "skin flicks" in the album, but it was sundown and she's at the bottom of the driveway so I had to diddle'em a bit. I'll get some better ones soon.

[64 DODGE 440]

Nice diddle.......Damn, that thing is looking good.

[recycler]

Bitchin car guys! Can't wait to see track footage of it!
Brad

[Old6rodder]

Howdy gentlemen,

Our creation lives!!! Barn Job #18 breathed her first yesterday, and took her first few steps today.

We put in a lot of work getting'er ready for the Bakersfield ANRA and it paid off in spades.
Basic paint, fuel system, exhaust, primary electrics and rear wheels (FINALLY). Put'er all together and tuned'er up enough to handle the show & tell and hauled'er up on her spiffy new trailer.
Lots of odds & ends still to go but she now looks essentially the way she's going to look.
Got to scoot'er back and forth a few times for the folks and had a ball. Now back to work for the home stretch.

I've added a few photos to the album of course, but will try to get some "in motion" ones before the next meet in August.

I've also recieved a short video clip of Tom pulling the car out and back at Famoso. I haven't a clue how to post it here ...... help?

[Mr. Mac]

KILLER! Those cars are lookin great. Can't wait to see how yours handles Old6. I'm going to build a new car for next year and it will be a rear engine car. Keep me posted.

[Rand Man]

Have you determined the weight distribution on #18?

[Old6rodder]

We were allowed to roll'er out a length or two and back as part of the exhibition. The clutch sort of over bit a little :rolleyes: on a couple of the roll-outs, and we happened to notice that the weight transfer onto the footprint seems to be about what we were hoping for.
The best part however is the throttle response from the SUs. Very quick, strong and rock steady on the build-up curve. Looks like she'll be a good pedal handled car, pretty much what we'd wanted. We believe it'll help offset the inherent traction handicap of a middie when pedalled properly (if we're wrong you roadster types'll have an easy round :o ).

We haven't been near a scale yet but the empty car balances out between #5 and #6 plugs, only a couple inches forward of our target (#6 plug). Don't know about "with driver" yet. We did leave a layout change capability in the design should we need to redistribute things a bit more onto the footprint though. I'll translate that into wheelbase percentages when I get some time this week (need to catch up a bit on the shop bench for some reason :D ).

[Old6rodder]

Well it's been a bit since we've been able to work on'er but we finally got back to it.

The last couple weeks (and change) of thrashing's paid off. The car (and the trailer)'s ready for the most part. Battery box is in, windscreen on, barf can on, taillight on, most everything painted & lettered (still no nose art though) and trailer mods done and working nicely.

My buddy took a couple pictures of'er outside his hanger, so I added'em to the album and picked one of'em for the thread.
We'll have more after Saturday, it's back up to Bakersfield.

Rand Man, we still don't have an accurate weight distribution yet but haven't forgotten.

[64 DODGE 440]

Yee haw.......ya be havin some fun now!!

[348chevy]

Why couldn't you cover the engine section with a T body from Speedway and look like Speed Sport. They had to run A/D not modified roadster. I've a picture of Red Greath in Speed Sport against a dragster out of Tulsa at MO-KAN in I believe 1962 and they are both smoking the tires and Speed Sport is sideways not lifting. Is that the way you going in, never lift, pedal to the metal.:D Roy

[Ned_Gob]

HA/GR #18

Name: "Barn Job #18", building (build photos link) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9255485@N04/sets/72157600488919503/)
Team: "Geezerspeed"

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1139091/Barn_Job_b[1]a.JPG

Engine: '60 225" Chrysler "slant" six
Gearbox: '62 Plymouth 3 sp.
Rear end: '62 Plymouth 7.25"

ET: none yet
MPH: none yet
Records: none yet
I missed this first time round . Slant sixes are the best !

[Old6rodder]

Howdy,

Finally added some more pictures of the last of the bits and pieces. We have the car ready to go, and we hauled'er up to Famoso (outside Bakersfield) to put'er through tech (and maybe a run in spite of our old belts). Oops, no dice.
Seems in the forty or so years since I've been to a strip they've come up with a couple new rules. Thought I had'em covered (had the '07 book and all) but guess not, missed a couple like the "overturn" gas tank vent, etc. No problem, we'll get'em right.

Now for the bitching ....
Also seem to've missed a couple big ones.
Every "race dedicated" open car's now required to have a full double loop cage regardless of e.t.? Must've missed that in their book, must need my lens prescription updated.
And if your rear's rigid then hell, it must be race dedicated. Can't find that in their book either but we were told verbally that's the way it is. No exceptions. Never mind what the same NHRA's doing right now elsewhere in the rest of the country, this is California.
And the welding strictures now apply to all roll bars & cages regardless of e.t.? Never mind that their book states otherwise, this is ......... etc.

Sooooo, if we really want to run on our beloved "left" coast it looks like we'll need to rethrash'er a bit. Guess we just don't look modern enough for "the way it was". Maybe more sponsor stickers?

OK, pathetic whine over for now. Hell, I'll let a bit of time settle me and probably get back to it.



But if they ever ask us to dial in .............

[Ned_Gob]

Now ya' know , stay at it !
The Cassandra link shows a picture of a cool valve cover (blue / grey color) for the slant , where the oil fill/breather cap is located in that area that has always confused me : the fins (?) stop just before the fire wall , is there a logical reason for the factory design ?

[Jim Marlett]

I think you have a tech inspector who's writing his own rules. At least I hope I'm right. Wichita International Raceway went independent this year, like MoKan. I have three independent strips within fairly easy driving range now. Too bad I don't have a HA/GR

[64 DODGE 440]

Now ya' know , stay at it !
The Cassandra link shows a picture of a cool valve cover (blue / grey color) for the slant , where the oil fill/breather cap is located in that area that has always confused me : the fins (?) stop just before the fire wall , is there a logical reason for the factory design ?

Has there ever been a logical reason for factory designs?

[Old6rodder]

No Jim, I don't think Joe was writing his own rules at all. Don't lay this at his door, he was very helpful and tried to inform me about the way the rules are being interpreted by the NHRA officials out here these days. He took the time to look over the car with an open mind and give me the best advice he had. We'll be following most of it out of hand, it makes good sense. We also had at least one item we were unable to do right (our old belts) in time and had hoped to beg through for this one night. We fully accept that it didn't fly.

He was also trying to inform me of our options in other existing classes, something I didn't pick up on right off and misconstrued as things we would have to do. I believe I owe both him and Butch an apology for my misunderstanding of that part.
As I mentioned, I've been "out of the game" for rather awhile. Joe was kind enough to try to bring me up to date as well, something that was very considerate as there were several folks waiting patiently for his inspections at the time.

My feeling that NHRA's evolving, and seemingly regional interpretations of their own rules is my primary annoyance, not the good folk trying to explain it to me. Please don't confuse that.
We felt we'd read the book in reasonable fashion and built our car in good faith, and expected mostly minor mistakes at best. The magnitude of the cage thing and the welding is quite frustrating in that light. We honestly felt we'd done our homework on it and were within their rules as printed.

The HAMBsters have been invited here to help show "the way it was" and this has attracted a few of us "old farts". As two of those, and the first to attempt to be teched out here it was bound to be (at the very least) a "learning experience" for all of us. It'll likely take a bit of back and forth to get this disparate a thing resolved, and I hope it will indeed be worked out. I believe it'd be beneficial to all of us to do so.
Because in spite of the wierdness to this old mind of the automated engine control systems, a tree that goes down unevenly and the very concept of racing "too fast" it was a most enjoyable evening. Perhaps we can even eventually put together a class that'll race with a flagman & a spotter (or at least a random green at 3+ seconds) and really do it "the way it was" for'em. 'Til that time we'll make the best of it we might.

[348chevy]

Well Old6, You truly are gracious in your assessment of the situation. I'm afraid I would have been really bummed but maybe if we can get all the tracks to be on the same page we can run these cars all over without fear of being turned down. I really love your comment on using a flagman, now that would really be good. Also no qualifing, just pair up and race. If you puke you lose and if you red light you lose. A flagman can put his flag on a button and if you jump before it comes off it's a red light. I also agree with running to fast but if we don't do something to hold down speeds we will go over the limits of the chassis. I am going to really stir the pot because we are about at the limits of the horsepower of the flatheads on gas so if we get to fast they will have to have a class by themselves and that takes away from it. Winning isn't everything we need to enjoy the moment.:p Roy

[Jim Marlett]

Let's see... NHRA has been writing rulebooks for what, 40-50 years? You'd think they could say what they mean by now. I know they're just trying to keep us safe, but I think they've forgotten that some people want to build slow cars that don't look like a daily driver.

I will tell you that I am still concerned that the overhead valve cars are going to be running too fast to be safe with the HA/GR driver protection the way it is written now. And even though the tires are supposed to be the great equalizer, if you overpower them down track, you can hit the guardrail pretty hard.

I feel like I've gone off on a tangent here. I ought to hit the delete key, but it was too much work typing it, so if you would just pardon me for sending this message, I'd appreciate it.

[64 DODGE 440]

No Pardon needed Jim. As one who is planning on what has the potential of being one of if not the slowest of the bunch, with my minuscule 218 Dodge flathead 6, I'm not worried to much about "overpowering" the tires.

That said, we all know the potential exists for someone letting a car get out of shape and making a mess of it. The very act of drag racing with any car necessitates some skill and risk be involved, and as an old tool maker that I used to work with was prone to say, "you can make it fool proof, but you will never make it damn fool proof".

The point is that we need to try and get the tech rule people to understand that we can still build a safe car with a torch and a stick welder, in our garages, and that these cars do not need the same methods of construction as a AA Fuel dragster to survive and compete safely. Otherwise, the only people who will be running these cars will be those who can afford "pro built" chassis, and all of the certification stuff and "big buck" crap that has driven most of us away from the drags.

This class isn't rocket science, it's about old technology, home brewed rails, with old technology engines, running speeds and times that many of the new production performance sedans can equal or better.

There are many aircraft flying today that are 50 or more years old, with steel tube fuselages and load bearing parts that were torch welded and are still being inspected annually and not having structural failures or falling out of the sky.

When you look at the amount of steel structures that have been built with old "buzz box" stick welders and are still performing after many years of service, why is it that the NHRA will only accept MIG or TIG welding as the allowed methods?

Just my take on some of the points, and I may not be an engineer, buy I do realize that when you consider all of the parameters, some of their requirements are the equivalent of killing a fly with a cruise missile.

[Old6rodder]

Work update;

We've been seeing to some of the things we were "gigged" for on our tech attempt last time out.
We have all the nylon style tank mounting straps replaced with 1/2" metal banding ones now, not quite as strong but they won't melt anywhere near as soon.
We cobbled up a serious battery hold-down (with 3/8" bolts as recommended) that could possibly survive armeggedon.
And our new belts finally came in, with proper certs & all.
Next we'll address the gas tank vent.

Other upgrades include permenant tie-down loops on the frame that'll be a whole lot easier on the straps (pictures now in the album) and hold'er in place better.
A new, longer steering arm that now reaches all the way to both lock positions on the front end. This necessitated recentering the tie rod and the steering wheel as well.
Replacing the Moon gas pedal with a much narrower one from an old Plymouth that's now far enough away from the brake pedal to avoid hitting both at once.
Diddling all those mechanical linkages so they run completely free, with no binds left at all.
Developed a cheap trailer handling mechanism that really takes the work out of loading and unloading the car (I'll try to get some pictures of that soon).

As to the "big debate";
We've "discussed" several possible designs for a second hoop for the roll bar. They all suck pond rocks but at least we've arranged'em into a "least offensive" ranking. If all else fails we can mock one up and submit the design for approval before we start welding stuff on (and then have to weld more stuff on the stuff). If it just has to be,......... then we'll want a design approved before we go near any metal.
Our team's consensus is that we're willing to grudgingly go a certain distance with it (whining all the way of course :rolleyes: ) but that we want to be met part way, with both side's arguments reflecting REALISTIC concerns for the speeds & e.t.s the class is running. We still believe that the six inch tread negates a lot of it.
For instance; we'd far prefer to see open rears mandated (to address the very real broken axle possibilities of lockers and spools on a full width rear) rather than "Disney World"ing the class with foam rubber.
Hell, my (stock '62 Valiant wagon) tow car tops out higher than our HA/GR will (same slanted engine, taller gears).

Anyway, I'll add more pictures as the work continues ..............

[Old6rodder]

Howdy,

Well, how's about an update?

We pulled the car out of its "winter" storage and took stock of where we are. Soooo .............
We did a bit of work the last couple days getting'er ready for Dragfest this weekend.
Put in a fresh clutch plate and surfaced the flywheel & pressure plate while it was apart. Also reworked the throwout arm pivot & pedal drag link for a bit more travel.
Went through the gearbox then too, it WAS out after all.
Modified the upper part of the scattershield to disassemble easier.
Reworked the master cylinder and brake links for more travel and a bit more leverage.
Moved the wishbone ends up a couple inches on their frame mounts for a bit more ground clearance.
Reset the floats on the carbs and remade part of the fuel line.
Dusted'er off some and put a spot of wax on.

Now to go to Famoso and find the bugs we missed ............ :D

[Old6rodder]

Back from a bitchin' weekend at Bakersfield.

We'd wanted to get 14's the first time out and after a couple shake-down runs I turned in a pair of'em; a 14.563 at 90.21 & a 14.675 at 88.83.
An acceptable first effort for a bone stock engine with some carbs, and 3.23's turning 30" tall hides. Still had a big chunk of third left at the end.

Next up is a better set of gears.

Added some pictures to the album.

[Old6rodder]

Howdy,

We got our new exhaust flanges yesterday, so today we made up our new pipes. They're definitely different. :cool:

Fresh pictures in the build album of course.

Getting ready for the Antique Nat's on Sunday. Hope to have some more running pictures from there.

[Toymaker]

Those are WILD, look like they came off a war plane.

[64 DODGE 440]

Cool stacks Dick.......Can't wait to hear it. :D

[ThingyM]

What Pictures???>???

[Old6rodder]

Dick, you can click on any of the underlined words in my signature or back in the opening post. When underlined, they're links to the picture albums they describe.
Posting links rather than pictures saves "bandwidth" and thus loading time on the thread here, it's a polite consideration for people using dial-up.

The shots of the stacks are the last four in the "Barn Job #18" album.

[ThingyM]

I just thought you might like to know. Have your car ready guys.. We will be racing ANRA at Bakersfield in a couple of weeks..Talked to the Bowsers(Owners)of the Patch. The responce was. "Wish you had 20 of them"(HA/GRs).. We will be working on that..YIpeeeeeeeee.

[Old6rodder]

Yessssssssssssss.................

[Old6rodder]

Those are WILD, look like they came off a war plane.

Thanks, we did have a P-51 sort of obliquely in mind while we hashed'em out.
Of course we stole the basic idea from you, just a slightly different mounting.
Obviously we shopped at the same header store you did. :D

[64 DODGE 440]

Thanks, we did have a P-51 sort of obliquely in mind while we hashed'em out.
Of course we stole the basic idea from you, just a slightly different mounting.
Obviously we shopped at the same header store you did. :D

And with all of that, I'm the one who's an aircraft mechanic, go figure. :D

[Old6rodder]

Unfortunately we can't claim originality. I noticed today that someone beat me to the idea. And better looking as well ........

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1139091/HUMBster.jpg

[Toymaker]

Thanks, we did have a P-51 sort of obliquely in mind while we hashed'em out.
Of course we stole the basic idea from you, just a slightly different mounting.
Obviously we shopped at the same header store you did. :D
All ya need is some nose art on that machine! I appreciate your consideration to others but the masses need to see those hedders:cool:

[64 DODGE 440]

You guys are making me rethink the way I want to make my exhaust.......

May have started a trend of "West Coast Hambster Stacks". :D

[Toymaker]

How'd ya do in Fontana Dick?

[Old6rodder]

OK, I'll run on a bit.
We had an absolute ball.:D

Tech was all over the chart. There were many open wheel cars with no roll bar what-so-ever and open face helmets, and much more of that sort of stuff.
Yet we were required to have full suit & shoes with arm restraints & full face bucket, and were even quizzed about a collar! Much of that seemed to be the result of our car looking like it should be running single digit times. Once they understood how slow we run they seemed more at ease. Still wanted all the fire stuff but were far less manic over it. It was almost like they were waiting for us. ;)

Still in all we got through it with just some safety wire replacements for a couple cotter pins I'd forgotten and the quickie addition of a spring at the gas pedal. The three on the carbs weren't enough so "then there were four". :rolleyes:

We were a bit late getting there so that and the time to fix the little things kept us to one t&t run for the morning. Unfortunately it was pretty bad; 16.471 @ 70.26. I missed second and had to back off at 70 with 2" of hop on the left front wheel (guess I'd over weighted it), but the carbs were rich as hell and crapping out pretty badly by then anyway.

During lunch I pulled some of the weights, popped the tops on the carbs and slid the needles down a bit. That cleaned up the carbon some and was helping the crap some as well but I guess whatever was already built up in'em wasn't going away.
First round of racing we were assigned to bracket 2 and they wanted to log our dial-in. The car behind us was 14.4 so we went with that. When we hit the apron & staged the car felt a bit better so I loaded the brake and took a shot at the light, pulling a .281. No big thrill there, but she came out really strong. Didn't last though, the top end crap was worse now. Took second early and when she crapped again grabbed third. By then the guy next to me (gorgeous open roadster, no roll bar at all) had gone by like an overdue UPS delivery (14.699 @ 95.33) and I settled for my 15.466 @ 83.24 & the comfort of our trailer.

Must have picked up some bottom end with the lean-out though as the clutch was slipping a bit in second and third (I may have it a bit tight too).
I'm pretty sure I finally know what the carb thing is and I should have it squared away by the 21st. If I can get the top end up without giving up the better bottom end we're hoping to maybe squeeze out a tall 13 at Bakersfield.

There was a ton of tin there
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270984
and even a long time favorite of mine; the Midnight Oil car. :cool: Damn, I do like that car. There were several of the Trompers we know from their meetings at our local Carrows and some of the guys from the board here, so we had friends to shoot the breeze with.
The Barn Job was popular in spite of my times and we handed out all the HA/GR info sheets we'd brought along. Got several more folks interested, may be another build or two could come of it.
Had to leave earlier than we wanted as I needed to get to the float barn today too.

All in all it was a great day. We didn't run like we wanted but we came away with what we think are some answers and we had a good time doin' it.

[Toymaker]

Wish I could of made it but I got the car all apart and adding 2 more bars to the cage:(. Look for you on the 21st, Rocky

[Old6rodder]

Got some work done getting ready for Bakersfield again.

*Fussed with the stacks we had on at Fontana and Tom donated some caps for'em. Noisy as hell and Man, you should see'em at night! :D
*Replaced the temporary safety wires with cotter pins.
*Added a permanent pedal spring to the throttle linkage.
*Added some more adjustment to the clutch linkage (and adjusted it :rolleyes:).
*Replaced the copper fuel rail & line with steel and tucked'em in a bit better.
*Rebuilt and "diddled" the carbs (and closed off the choke circuits).
*Devised an "on-board" float adjustment tool (from a piece of coat hanger wire) and made up a check gauge.
*Cobbled up a "top-off" tube & bulb gizmo (for the SU's piston oil) from a baby's "snot sucker". Sure takes the grief outta that chore.
*Rebuilt and "diddled" the distributor. Dumped the vac advance and converted it's mechanism to a screw-set, then lengthened and resprung the mechanical advance mechanism.
*Cobbled a "crank (pulley) turner" out of an old piece of v-belt, a 5/8" bar and a couple hose clamps (just a large ugly strap wrench) for timing adjustments.

The healthier bottom end's still there and I got rid of most of the top-end crapping, what's left is much higher up and may well be the valves floating a bit. Perhaps it's time to broach the possibility of thinking about maybe getting around to entertaining the notion of giving some consideration to something other than a bone stock engine? :o

Anyway, next up is doing a proper balance on the wheels, then hauling'er up to the Patch and having a bit of fun. :cool:

[Toymaker]

:eek:3:36 AM.........I THOUGHT I HAD IT BAD! Looking forward to the 21st, "O" and don't forget the DR Pepper:D

[64 DODGE 440]

You two should merge and rename the combined team "Insomniac Racing".:D

[Old6rodder]

I don't know, "Insomniac Racing" may convey the wrong safety concepts to the techs, especially for a couple geezers.
Wouldn't want'em thinking we're going to be nodding out before the traps now, would we?
Ah well, it does come with the age thing .... hell, at least it's quiet time on the computer.

We're going to drag our second hoop mock-up along for design approval if & when they decide to get sticky about it.

Also will have some more rules hand-outs for the crowd.

Also want to chat with you about an idea I've had regarding the class.

.......... and I never go anywhere without my Dr Pepper, been addicted since before it went national. :D

[64 DODGE 440]

I don't know, "Insomniac Racing" may convey the wrong safety concepts to the techs, especially for a couple geezers.
Wouldn't want'em thinking we're going to be nodding out before the traps now, would we?


Hell.......if ya can't stay awake between the tree and the traps, you do have a problem. That must be one boring ride. :D

[Toymaker]

Come on Dick I'm dying to tell your Roll Cage mockup story:D PRICELESS!

[Old6rodder]

Howdy gentlemen,

Butch's ANRA Springnats were a blast, we had a great time.
And it was hot, so I'm going to use every cheap heat reference I can think of. :p But it wasn't rained out. ;)

We got there before the gates opened for once but Rocky, Lee & Co. had gotten there the night before and set up camp. Fortunately there was still some space next door so we set up all together, combining our porta-shades into a small flea market set-up. They'd already tech'ed so we wheeled the Barn Job over to the lines for our turn and as Butch had warned'em about us it wasn't too bad. The tech we got has been invloved since the first time we had the car out there so he was already used to our often novel responses to the rules.

Here's the set-up:
We'd brought along our "second hoop" cage design mock-up for approval. It was cobbled up from 3/4" conduit and covered with slip-on insulation foam to bring it out to 1 3/4" diameter. It just clipped in place to make sure it was in the correct position for reference.

Now, on with the saga:
After we tech'ed we asked the inspector to critique it. We clipped it on for him to see and he called a couple other techs over for their critiques as well. Unfortunately they hadn't been party to the initial conversation and were in the process of letting us know that simply clipping one on wasn't going to get it, it needed to be bolted, or better still welded in place. A squeeze of the "padding" brought disapproval of it's density and effectiveness, more shaken heads and upon noticing the seam & lifting same, the observation of the 3/4" conduit under it. "No", "No way","No way in hell" and "Are you serious?" were among the politer responses at this point. The rest were a tad more intense.
Finally our first tech realized the situation and laughing, explained to the others the nature of the "inspection". Their relief (and their minor abashment) was palpable. They joined in laughing at the joke and then gave us some good advice on the design.

We certainly did have'em going for a bit though (no matter how unintentionally). Of course we'll be telling this one for awhile. :D

On to the day:
Our wish for the day was to squeeze in a hot (for us) high13 if possible with the car set up as it is. We decided that as Russ is relatively new to the strip I'd heat'er up 'til we got it and he'd toast'er after that. On the first Open Wheel T&T call I cooked off a 14.282 @ 92.59, only a bit warmer than our previous best of 14.563 @ 90.21 but progress none-the-less.
The second call I fried a 14.095 @ 93.14 and we were really looking forward to blistering our hoped for 13.
Unfortunately they didn't get in a third call for Open Wheel before lunch and that left us with a heated decision to make. We were so close and still running hot that we decided to go for it during the heat of eliminations.
Sadly, I made a dumbfuck mistake, turning the newly installed advance screw on the distributor the wrong way and effectively burnt the race, also frying any chance of our 13. We'd dialed in 13.9 and the lukewarm 14.432 @ 93.54 that I fizzled fell to the other guy's smoking 12.182 (on his 11.95 dial) as it deserved to.
So with charred dreams, and smoked to our trailer, we settled for the ashes of a near miss and retired to swelter in the pits. Russ never even got to don his fire suit and warm the hides.

Did I mention that it was warm? :rolleyes:

We hung around and lent a hand cooling down Lee's car during his subsequent runs and he made it to next to last round (due solely to our help of course :D). We had a ball. Then Rocky came up with E/G honors and we all went ape (what're your points now, Rocky?). I wish we could've stayed for the festivities but I had to get back down the hill as it was late and I have long Sundays obligated to the float.
I hear you had a good time afterward, sorry we had to go.

We'll make some changes we'd held off and see y'all again in August. :cool:
And I'll bring along a better chair.


Did I say it was hot? It was HOT. It was REAL HOT! It was DAMN HOT!!! It was sooooo hot that ............................
(With apologies to Robin Williams for that crass plagerism.) :D
...........the legs of the light weight sun-shades left clear imprints in the asphalt.

[64 DODGE 440]

Hey Dick.......what are you trying to do, make us get a cam ground for the Flathead Dodge, just so we can keep up?:cool:

14.095, damn, I may just have to let you go and race Lee.

Sounds like the leaning tower of power just keeps getting better. I guess the cleaned out carbs ran pretty good. Now all you have to do is remember which way to turn the screw for advance. :D

[ThingyM]

Tom.. Thats what it looks like is going to happen..He and Lee doing the run offs..You and I can race that little Ol' lady in the hopped up wheelchair...

[64 DODGE 440]

That little old lady cheats. :D

[Old6rodder]

Well, be that way then. :p

:D

At the moment we're relegated to running Open Wheel (a bracket class) so the tree'll balance out the differences anyway.

We want to snag a 13 with this set-up as it is before we make any more changes.
I think we might be able to eventually squeeze a 12 out of the stock engine if we can get the carbs working right, the right gears and shorten the drive train.
Then we want to back-track, thrash out that YH and see what we can do on one barrel. Should put us back at 15+ or so. Kin we hang with youse guys again then? Purdy pleeeeeease? :o

[ThingyM]

Well lets just say that with a whomping 198 cu in motor, We ain't gonna set the world on fire. But I am trying for a 980 lb car though. That way, When I put my FAT butt in it, it will be right up there with you guys...

[Drewfus]

Then we want to back-track, thrash out that YH and see what we can do on one barrel. Should put us back at 15+ or so. Kin we hang with youse guys again then? Purdy pleeeeeease? :o

Harsh....that's harsh.:D

so how heavy is that the car, and just out of curiousity, how well does it tow on that single axle trailer?

In regards to the headers, have been doing some reading on 'intake pulsing', which whilst being a different topic altogether showed refference to a slant in a test car, that originally had a set of short zoomies, car ran about 86mph(ish, from memory), it then fitted a set of headers that had 36" long 1 5/8", then dumping into 2 secondaries (about 2 1/4" bore) for the length of the vehicle......improved to 94mph. Just offering food for thought.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[Old6rodder]

We don't know the car's weight yet.

Yeah, I know that's hard to believe but it seems the fates've been against us in that endeavor. Both strips we've run at have had their scales down every time and the local dumps won't let us do it there. And the way we have to park the trailer here (for now) doesn't allow me to dismount it here (I have to do my work on it on the trailer) so I can't rig up a bathroom scale gag yet.

At the moment we're guessing around 1200 lbs. but God alone knows how close that is.
Add me and that adds up some. :D


Yeah, tuned collectors are a great top end enhancer with a long history, we want to cobble some up once we get the rest of it under control.
The longish Lynx manifold is already doing some of that on the intake side too.

One of our present goals is to see just how quick & fast we can get a slant with honestly stock internals to go.
Then one of our next goals is to see what we can do with a stocker with a factory one barrel and stock manifolds. They came with a Carter YH on the motor home, some industrial set-ups and perhaps some marine set-ups and we feel that carb may have more hidden potential than the uprights. That's what we actually designed our first run exhaust manifold & pipe for, so of course we've kept it.

We plan on having a lot of fun with this car.

Someday we'll likely put in a reasonably built engine and see about taking a shot at some HA/GR records, but not for a bit yet.

As for the trailer, it tows great. We hung the axle just abaft the balance point of the loaded trailer and she tows straight & solid with about 200 lbs. on the ball.
When we get the rear end moved forward (tailshaft & housing shortened some) we'll load'er up with the front wheels back that distance on the trailer, leaving the balance nearly the same for about 180 lbs. on the ball.

[Ron Golden]

Drewfus,

Regarding headers; I dyno a lot of engines and I've seen amazing results with collector extensions. On one 406 SB Chevy bracket engine I was able to pick up 96 lbs of TQ @ 4500 rpm by adding 18" of collector. (An 8" extension hurt the TQ.) The results was so drastic I had to do a back-back test to verify the results. On a 433cid Ford, FE street engine collector extensions increased TQ 51 lbs @ 3500 rpm. Peak HP typically increases about 1-1.5 percent. Not much, but everything helps.

The primary length isn't as important as the diameter. A primary length of 36 inches will get most street/bracket engines in the ball park. If your going to error on primary diameter, too small is better than too big.

One thing to keep in mind, with the standard tranny the rpm will drop a bunch on the 2-3 gear change. Typically, the rpm will drop from 5500 to about 3000-3200. Depending on the tranny gear ratio's the rpm may be different...but not much. That means we have to concentrate on midrange TQ. Tune the exhaust, that's where forgotten TQ is at.

Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep with my rambling.

Ron

[Drewfus]

Note: appoligies for ransacking the thread a bit, but keen to hear more...

Tune the exhaust, that's where forgotten TQ is at.


So what would you suggest?

Ive been reading about intake lengths as well, and ballpark numbers for about 5500 rpm equates to approximately 18", with the 36" on the exhaust primary.

Ron, can you start a thread on this topic with your perspective because I too would like to play with my relatively 'stock' engine, exploring benifits of simple 'bolt on' mods......making my own intake & race headers does't scare me...

Again, appoligies, will get back to the program.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[64 DODGE 440]

Note: appoligies for ransacking the thread a bit, but keen to hear more...



So what would you suggest?

Ive been reading about intake lengths as well, and ballpark numbers for about 5500 rpm equates to approximately 18", with the 36" on the exhaust primary.

Ron, can you start a thread on this topic with your perspective because I too would like to play with my relatively 'stock' engine, exploring benifits of simple 'bolt on' mods......making my own intake & race headers does't scare me...

Again, appoligies, will get back to the program.

Cheers,

Drewfus

Agreed, we could use a "HA/GR Tech" Thread to swap our innovations and help the others who are just starting out in the wonderful world of home constructed drag cars.:cool:

[348chevy]

We do need a thread that will give a place to share what we know and have experienced. I know with the intake it is all about harmonics. If you want to make the most HP at 4000 to 6000 rpm you need a runner from the intake valve to the base of the plenum of 13 inches. This should taper down from the plenum to the intake port approximately 25 percent. If you want to make HP in the 2500 to 4000 rpm you need to have runners about 34 inches:eek: a long runner. If you ever see pictures of the old Ramchargers Plymouth you will see that they were really into that. The old 413 Chrysler product Super Stock cars used this also by running the carbs on long runners clear out over the opposite valve cover. I know there are a lot of great minds out there and it is fun to experiment. That is all gone today in racing. :(Roy

[Ron Golden]

The Chrysler intake was tuned to have a 10 percent torque increase at 2800 rpm. The heads of Chrysler felt this would give the best "feel" for the average car owner even though some horsepower was lost at high rpm.

For those interested in designing their own intake system you may find the following book interesting:
"Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems"
Philip H. Smith & Doctor John C. Morrison.
They spent 40 years, full time, designing and testing these systems.

After reading this book several times (and other books as well) take a common sense approach and copy or buy an intake that works. Besides, you need a dyno to accurately test the different designs.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

OK, finally got some time to begin prep for Butch's August ANRA meet.

Done so far .......
Added some advance marks to the nose pulley and timed'er properly (finally).
Did a full re-engineer of the clutch linkage for more travel and better adjustability.
Added a mirror so's we can back'er onto the trailer now, because>
Modified the trailer to roll on & off from the front rather than the back. This'll give us a much shallower loading angle to deal with and is our response to an incident earlier this year. We came close to losing the car off the back (on the freeway) when the tie-downs came loose unnoticed. But for another racer pulling along side us and getting our attention we certainly would've.

Yet to do .......
Do a full & proper rebuild on the carbs.
Try out the mods we've dreamed up to finish off the top end lean-out problem.
Have the nose art done. We've arranged with a talented friend to have him do up the nose art idea we settled on awhile back. Hope to have it done by the 23rd.
Finish the second hoop on the roll bar.
And if we get the top end working right; put in the 4.10 gears we got.

Looking forward to Cool August Nights.

[Old6rodder]

Rand Man this one's for you,

No, I hadn't forgotten, and this is certainly embarassing. It occurred to me only this morning that I didn't need to find some flat land to set up a "bathroom scale" scale. I realized I could simply level the damn trailer and do it right here. Why haven't I thought of it before?
Well now, that seems to be the embarassing bit. :o

At any rate, my admittedly rough figures came up at 1300# (only a bit more than the 1200# we'd hoped) for the car and an average 200# for our drivers. Ready to launch it works out to 1500# with 42% on the fronts and 58% on the rears.
Once we get the gearbox's tail shortened (and the wheelbase thus shortened) it'll be just about right on a 40/60 split, pretty much what we were looking for. Now if we can just shave off some weight (and maybe from the car as well :rolleyes:) ...............

Also finally "doped" out a portion of our recalcitrant top end problem. Turned out to be a ftupib mistake of my own. For certain reasons I placed the #1 plug one position out from the factory dist. cap location. Well, the gear has 13 teeth so can't match the 60* move exactly. The available range in the factory adjustment slots will cover the difference, IF IT'S MOVED THE CORRECT DIRECTION. If it's stupidly moved the other way the rotor gets too far past the contact during advance and you lose spark at a given tach point NO MATTER WHAT ELSE YOU FIDDLE WITH.
:o :o :o
Hey, I made 62 last month. Do I get to claim "senior moments"?

Oh well, I readjusted it & popped on a wide contact cap to cover my ass, and now at least I can get on with tucking in the 4.10s. :cool:

The way things are going this week I only hope I can locate Famoso again before August is over ............. :confused:

[64 DODGE 440]

"Senior moments, helping Hotrodders slide into old age gracefully".:D

[Joe Hamby]

Hey Old6rodder you are a month older than former pres Bill Clinton. And I am 3 days older then he is Aug 19 for him and Aug 16 for me. When you shorten the back of your car, have you found a way to shorten the tail shaft? Do some of the old vans have short shafts? When you cross the quarter mile line does it feel like a big go cart?

[Old6rodder]

#1. Wow, that's incredible. We're only slightly older than slick willie, yet so very much cooler. :cool:

#2. Well, working alone and without the benefit of multitudes of staff & advisors I guess I'll just have to take my own blame. :(

Clinton fans, don't get your chonies in a bunch. For me a good joke trumps even my own opinions, and I've had some great Reagan & Bush (& Bush) ones as well. :p
Thanks Joe, best set-up line I've had so far this year. :D

Yeah, the only shorty gearboxes I've found for the slant are some of the very different truck & van units. Quite heavy, bulky, their output splines aren't slip joint and they aren't all that much shorter due to their larger original size. Their slip joints are further down their (two-piece) driveline. I bought one but will only cobble it in if the car boxes prove too weak, something I don't expect to happen.
Keeping a slip joint eases the layout design criticals considerably, so should it come to the truck box I'll likely look into using the splines in a (very limited) slip joint manner. I haven't as yet looked to see what that'd take. "We'll cross that bridge when .........."

The early (ball & trunion) car output shafts have enough meat on'em right behind the aft box bearing to handle new splines for the later slip joint. Cut it off, spline it and treat it. The tail bushing appears to be a perfunctory element and thus deletable with the shortened output.
After that it's just a matter of cutting off the tail housing end and adding a seal carrier (the seal acts on the slip collar) from the later tail. Just a bit of cast aluminum work.

Yes, it is a fun ride. It's really something to be at 90+ with your toes between open front wheels. I'm quite looking forward to a C-note.

I never had this sensation on a cart as the focus was on the corners and I used the visual reference of the inside front wheel in my lower peripheral most of the time. Here I'm focused on the track only and it's more like I'm racing with nothing but a suit & bucket on 'til I clear the traps and re-notice the front wheels. :D :D :cool:

Russ seems to enjoy it some as well ............. ;)

[Old6rodder]

OK, photo site updated.

What with the advance stupidity addressed, a couple mods on the carbs dealing with windage and the new gears in we're nearly ready to go to Bakersfield.
So I took some pictures of the bits & pieces and put'em in the album.

You may notice the cowl missing. It's off at our friend's getting the nose art done. I'll add some pictures when we get it back, should be Monday or Tuesday.

[Toymaker]

OK, photo site updated.

What with the advance stupidity addressed, a couple mods on the carbs dealing with windage and the new gears in we're nearly ready to go to Bakersfield.
So I took some pictures of the bits & pieces and put'em in the album.

You may notice the cowl missing. It's off at our friend's getting the nose art done. I'll add some pictures when we get it back, should be Monday or Tuesday.
Ya puttin some teeth on that thing, for the bite your adding to it:D

[64 DODGE 440]

Ya puttin some teeth on that thing, for the bite your adding to it:D

Be afraid Rocky.......be very afraid.:D

[Toymaker]

Be afraid Rocky.......be very afraid.:D
Right now I'm stock piling parts.......we're going to be forced to get after it this winter to keep up with Thingy and Old6' ;)

[Old6rodder]

Not real teeth, just dentures. :D

Actually we had considered the Flying Tigers when we were kicking around artwork ideas (I believe Arfons did something like that on a "Monster" once) but decided we wanted something that reflected on the "Barn Job" aspect of the name.
I shan't spill the beans but I will say that what we settled on not only works in that way but also reflects very nicely the era our HA/GRs represent.
I'm really bustin' at the seams to spit it out but I won't. ;)

[Old6rodder]

It's here, it's on and ...... IT ...... IS ...... BITCHIN'!!!!! :D
Our nose art, of course. Our buddy Mike Stangler nailed what we wanted dead on, including Daisy Mae, although we were SERIOUSLY tempted to do Stupefyin' Jones (and I really liked Joe Btfsplk). :rolleyes:

Al Capp's 1934 comic innovation ran into '77 and not only covers, but was very much alive during the era our cars represent. :cool:

Pictures are in the album, naturally.

[moparsled]

lovin' the nose art-

hatin' the second hoop.

[Ron Golden]

Looks great. I envy anyone with artistic talent since I don't have any. I still think a rear engine car will eventually kick all our butts.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

lovin' the nose art-

hatin' the second hoop.

Ditto .......

Ron, I'm not so sure about that. I recall Arfons' problems with ets. His speeds were great but he never really clocked well with those tires, the slingshots were better.
Garlits solved it later of course, but not with street tires (not that we have anything resembling their hps, but the physics are likely similar).
Here's hoping you're right though. :D

[64 DODGE 440]

It's here, it's on and ...... IT ...... IS ...... BITCHIN'!!!!! :D
Our nose art, of course. Our buddy Mike Stangler nailed what we wanted dead on, including Daisy Mae, although we were SERIOUSLY tempted to do Stupefyin' Jones (and I really liked Joe Btfsplk). :rolleyes:

Al Capp's 1934 comic innovation ran into '77 and not only covers, but was very much alive during the era our cars represent. :cool:

Pictures are in the album, naturally.

Great finishing touch.......now take her out and fly!!:D

Perhaps we need a "Nose Art" thread. Anyone else out there with some?:confused:

[Ron Golden]

Old6,

I think Arfon's problem was trying to get all the weight (mass) moving quickly. The conventional diggers were much lighter and reacted much quicker. Arfon's cars were tanks.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

That they were. Perhaps there's hope for ours. I'll let y'all know Monday or so.

[Old6rodder]

The Saga ............

Well, it was interesting. We headed up to Russ's Wednesday afternoon to allow time to add the second hoop on Thursday (I'll have some pictures up sometime this week). Turned out we had to bend it with a 4" rad. exhaust bender. We managed, didn't come out bad as I feared. :rolleyes: Then I had to mount it with an unfamiliar mig that was set hot for .035" wire but fitted with .020", a "flash" bucket that didn't, and then a non-flash bucket with someone else's corrective lenses and lastly a gun style I've not used before. I must say, some of the ugliest beads I've laid in rather awhile. Functional, but "ugly stick" ugly. No need to redo'em but certainly not work you brag about. :o Anyway, back at Russ's Friday morning I painted it all up (helped a little) and popped'er on stands for a listen to the new gears. Sounded good, so back on the trailer and out to Bakersfield for t&t on Friday night. :cool:

Got'er off loaded and tech'ed and took'er out for a spin just around sundown. At the strip end of the lanes I hit the lights switch. Big puff of smoke from the dash and she quits cold. Killed the lights and tried a restart, no problem. Lights again, dead again (at least without the smoke this time). Kill the lights, reflame'er, roll up to prestage and tell the tale to the starter. "No sweat, just get it fixed before next round." Cool.
Line'er up and make the run, at 15.122 @ 90.15, crapping out at the top of each gear. Sure as hell wasn't the high 13 we'd been looking for. Felt like it was just down on punch as well. Back in the pits we chased down the short and corrected it. Fortunately no harm to the circuitry.
Russ took a turn next and said it was crapping even lower now. :confused: Back in the pits we popped the dist cap and the "perfectly reliable" Pertronix I'd put in so we could concentrate on the carbs had shed its tape and spit two of the little magnets out. GDMFSOB! Pulled all six, JB Welded'em back in and called it 'til morning to let the epoxy set.

Next morning we put it back together, no change. The electronics had been boogered. Looks like we're out of it. :mad: A bit later Russ related the tale to Butch and Butch mentioned a local (12 mi.) parts store that might carry '60s points & condensers for the farmers and such. We hopped in the truck and beat feet over. They not only had the parts, they even had an assortment package of ignition screws to go with. Many thanks and back to the strip. :D One nice thing about real points is the ability to throw'em in by eyeball and be bloody damn close to specs. Fired'er up about sundown again and put in a 15.367 @ 92.29 for first round qualifying. Russ took his turn but with the carb crap still there couldn't improve it, so we decided to dial in at a conservative 15.00. ;)

First elim rolled around just before midnight. We'd diddled the carbs a bit but it didn't sound much better. I warmed the hides this time and broke out by .374 with a 14.626 @ 92.39 to the other lane's .156 break-out. Toasted in the first round, the loser of a double break-out. :(

All in all, we had a great time (emotional roller coaster not-withstanding), saw some old friends, made some new ones and in spite of the set-backs, are happy with how the car's doing under the circumstances. Looking forward to ANRA #4 with hopes of finally getting these carbs under control. :D

[348chevy]

You know on my 348 powered 58 Chevy I ran Pertronix for 5 years and never had a problem but for racing I think that points and condenser are more user friendly. A solid state is not usually fixable when it goes south. A set of points can be filed or reset and if you carry a spare condenser you can usually get back in the game.:)Roy

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, I'm running Pertronix in both the float engines (per Tournament recommendations) and in my "slanted" daily (for over a year now) as well. We were quite surprised and quite irritated at the failure. I'm not too worried about the two in the float but I do believe I'll epoxy the one in my car, I do spin it from time to time. :rolleyes:

We'll stick to points for the Barn Job anyway, as we'd fully intended to go back to'em once we had the carbs sorted out. I've been hoarding an old dual point conversion plate for this distributor for awhile now. Looks to be time to drop it in. :cool:

[Ron Golden]

Roy,

I spun my stock GMC distributor to 6000 rpm on my distributor machine and it never missed a beat. By the way, have you locked out the advance on your distributor?

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

Always preferred the basic points and condenser ignition. With minor maintenance they are very reliable and if it does take a poop they are pretty easy to troubleshoot in the field.

Than again I like aircraft that need to be started by pulling on the propeller and motorcycles that you have to kick start. Something about the stuff you don't need a computer degree to work on appeals to me.:cool:

[Old6rodder]

Got this from the Famoso site, video from T&T Friday evening.
Barn Job's run's at 4:18 minutes on the video's clock.
Very slow load due to re-posting (be patient) but plays good.


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/14-Mile-Drag-Racing-at-in_179945.htm

[348chevy]

To answer Ron Golden's question there is no advance in my distributor, I locked it out. Back in 1957 when I had my first flathead rail, John Bradley running Gene's Brake shop flathead rail was the top runner in flatheads. I wanted to get rid of the battery and so I went to a Harmon and Collins Mag for my 3/8 X 3/8 flathead. I noticed when John Bradley fired up the engine sounded very docile and as he pulled up Gene would come up and set the Mag and the engine really came alive. I asked Gene why and he said with Nitro you can't have a lot of advance when you fire it up but with gas you could and don't run any mechanical advance. He said that was strictly for the street. I have never ran mechanical or for sure vacuum advance in any race motor. Set it at what is your maximum advance and run it there. The less movement you get out of the plate that the points are on the more accurate your spark is. If we could run crank triggers you could really have a steady and accurate spark. But they for sure didn't have crank triggers in 1957 or 1960.:p Roy

[SrtBrad]

Got this from the Famoso site, video from T&T Friday evening.
Barn Job's run's at 4:18 minutes on the video's clock.
Very slow load due to re-posting (be patient) but plays good.


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/14-Mile-Drag-Racing-at-in_179945.htm


It was me that posted that video. If anyone wants the full resolution footage let me know.

Brad
323 896-3281

[Old6rodder]

Cool.

Thanks, Brad.

[Old6rodder]

OK, I added a better "nose art" picture and a couple shots from our pit at the "Hot August Nights" meet showing the new second loop, making the roll bar into a cage. How appropriate for a "HAMBster". :rolleyes:

[Old6rodder]

Damn, I lost 13".

Or rather the car did. :cool:

We FINALLY got the short gearbox done and fitted into the car. Pulled the rear end forward and adjusted all the other pertinent things. At long last it looks the way it's always looked in my head. :D Definitely stumpier, and much improved on its weight transfer. Also knocked off 35 lbs, that certainly won't hurt.

Actual wheelbase change after all the bits and pieces were put back together is down 14" for a final result of 124", only 2" over our original target of 122" (the extra 2" is in the front end). :cool:

Added a selection of photos to the build album of course. Should have some from next weekend at Bakersfield shortly as well.

[64 DODGE 440]

Lookin' good!! The aft shift of CG shouldn't hurt either, and leaving the extra weight in the scrap metal bin always helps!!:D

[Toymaker]

Crafty Old6, see ya Saturday!

[ThingyM]

Yea,,, Next it will be a Fab 9" rear with spool and pro gears... Then god only knows after that...ha ha ha hehe...

[Old6rodder]

Hadn't thought of those yet, you buying? :D

Actually we did score an old "sure grip" (Chrysler's posi) for the 7 1/4" but it needs rather a bit of work to say the least. :rolleyes:
It'll reside on the shelf 'til such time as we encounter one-wheel slippage problems (so far not evident).

[Old6rodder]

Well, we got the new needles in the SUs so we'll give'em a try Saturday.
Doesn't sound like much improvement yet but can't open'er up on our streets, far too vertical here and far too lumpy.
That's the next to last item on our "top end crap possibilities" list, only thing left is valve springs. We won't do that 'til we build a proper head, maybe early next year.

We expect to make it Friday afternoon and will be there for the weekend.
Come on by, cold DPs of course.
See ya there ........ :cool:

[64 DODGE 440]

We'll be there on Saturday to help with the pit details, our parts ain't assembled enough to bring along yet, but we'll be takin' notes.:cool:

[Toymaker]

Yum, Cold DP's:D Look forward to seeing you guy's!

[Toymaker]

The "Vintage" photo of Old6' and Team TWIRL'N:cool:

[Old6rodder]

Cool.

Thank you.

[Old6rodder]

Well, I pulled the tarp and flamed'er this evening, painted the street in a couple places just for giggles. Certainly was nice to tap the pedal again after the last few months of having to settle for only looking at'er as I walked by.

Still has the crap over 4500 (I have a couple more ideas why and'll test for'em this week) but it sure felt good to smoke'er right off the street crown again.
Li'l Dickie LIKES driving sideways ..... :D :rolleyes:

If you've seen the pictures of the hill I live on you know it gets interesting in rather a hurry when you light up the hides around here. :cool:

Getting ready to start this year's fixes and upgrades. I swear by Odin's brats I'll get these damn carbs right this year. :o

[Doug Sparks]

Does the NHRA tech. guys look at it as a rea engined dragster??

[Old6rodder]

Yes, albeit a distinctly slow one. ;) At this time we're included in existing bracket classes at the three different venues that run us. Most of the tech guys at these (Historic and Nostalgia) venues understand the concept and fit us into a bracket reflecting our actual performance rather than hammer us with tech for cars three times faster and a third our ets.

We haven't attended an NHRA owned venue (nor are we likely to) as they make no provisions for HA/GR type cars, even in their own so-called "Nostalgia" classes. Nor are they likely to.

Such time as we manage enough cars to initiate an HA/GR class it'll actually be slower than the classes we now run ............. but finally it'll no longer be bracket racing. :cool:

[Doug Sparks]

Could you tell me the length of just the frame. I have a model t type frame and it measures about 107 inches, don't know if that will work to make a dragster like yours...thanks

[Doug Sparks]

I have a question for all you chevy guys. Was the 1962 chevy nova engine, the 153 cubic inche four cyl. the same as the later Monza and s-10 pickup motor??

[Old6rodder]

Our frame's 117.5". That allows for 29" of engine (pulley to bell flange) and 30" from there to rear axle centerline with the shortened gearbox.
A couple inches to the firewall and that leaves 56.5" for the driver.
The front end's beyond the frame of course.

In that a banger's inherently shorter you just might make it on 107". :cool:

[64 DODGE 440]

Could you tell me the length of just the frame. I have a model t type frame and it measures about 107 inches, don't know if that will work to make a dragster like yours...thanks

We're using T rails in our construction, came out with a 112" wheelbase. could have built it shorter but stretched the nose a bit.

Go for it!

[nexxussian]

I have a question for all you chevy guys. Was the 1962 chevy nova engine, the 153 cubic inche four cyl. the same as the later Monza and s-10 pickup motor??


Monza maybe, depends on what S-10 you mean, the earlier ones were Isuzu motors IIRC (and not one of their better designs IIRC).

[348chevy]

Old six I notice that a few posts ago you said you were still crapping out above 4500. I know you have spent hours on the carbs but have you looked at the valve springs. I know either a broken or weak valve spring will sure make you think you have carb or ignition problems.:) Roy

[Four Banger]

The Chevy 153 was nothing more than a Chevy six with two cylinders lopped off, shareing the same 3.875 bore and 3.25 stroke with the 230 six. The Monza 151 engine that replaced the Vega engine greatly resembled the earlier 153 externaly, but was a new casting, with a 4.00 bore and 3.00 stroke. These engines weren't as stout as the early 153, and had only limited rpm potential due to thinner block castings and lighter weaker cranks. These engines got a cross flow head in 1980, and found their way into many GM cars and trucks including the early S-10, and AMC cars and Jeeps. The front wheel drive cars got a different version of this engine, with a different block. These had the small 2.8 V-6 bell housing flange in place of the earlier V-8 style, and a side mounted water pump to shorten the engine enough to fit in a transverse application. If you want to race a Chevy four, the old 153 is the one you want. These were widely used in Midget racing for years, and are very light, strong and respond well to modifications. If memory serves me, they were available from 62 through 70, although the newer ones were probably fairly low production. The 153s are great because of the parts interchangability...230 rods and bearings, and pistons (283 V-8s too!), water pumps, etc. All valve train parts, bell housings, starters, and mounts are also the same. Gee, I'm starting to salivate just thinking about these little powerhouses!

[Old6rodder]

Old six I notice that a few posts ago you said you were still crapping out above 4500. I know you have spent hours on the carbs but have you looked at the valve springs. I know either a broken or weak valve spring will sure make you think you have carb or ignition problems.:) Roy

Yeah, that's been on the list for some time now. I've been procrastinating on testing the valve springs, wanting to settle the carb and advance problems before I pop the head but I may have to break into that schedule and do it.

I'm persistantly getting less slide opening at idle and more standing wave at the top end at the rear two carbs. I'll finish matching the slide springs this week, switch the carb positions to double check and then likely look into the valve springs finally. One of the "things" on slants is the rear valves.

Perhaps I can devise a way to check'em in place, cobble up a lever and torque wrench thingie or such. Simple reference test should do it, there should be at least one good one for a benchmark.

I also plan on adding some stack to the carbs to keep the standing wave in the system. Hate to give up the pretty filter covers though. :(

[Old6rodder]

Extremely embarassing update on our persistent crapping around 4500. It looks like I've been beating my head against the wrong end of the problem, perhaps why my results've been less than effective.

I recently had occasion to clip an old box tach/dwell that a friend loaned me onto the Toad for a baselining run on the new 3.23 gears. She was smooth and almost exactly 4500 @ 100 mph as expected, and I noticed the pitch of the engine during the run. Sounded happy and not dangerously tight.

Back to the Barn Job and while I was fiddling I read the tach, crapping at 4500 but noticed the pitch was all wrong for those revs. Curiosity up, I popped the box tach on and lo & behold the two didn't agree, car said 4500 ...... box said 3000! WTF:confused:
Pulled the car's tach and checked the setting, yeah, six cyls. Put it back together, same results. Damn. Apart again, this time I took a screwdriver and switched the setting back & forth. The detents didn't feel quite right so I tried and sure enough, it went past the eight cyl mark to yet another detent (twelve?). The light finally dawned and I set it on eight, put it back together and oyez, oyez, it was now reading correctly for six ..... and the exact same damn crap was now officially at 3000.
Mid-range.

All this time I've been going nuts studiously futzing with the top end timing and carb settings and the damn thing hadn't even been getting up that high in the first ************* place. But the tach said ......... :rolleyes:

Stupid, thy name is Dick!

Well, it didn't rain Friday so I went through the carbs and the timing with some quick approximate changes and lo & behold I got 4400 (with the tach now reading correctly). Shouldn't take too much more diddling to get a usable 5000 out of'er (the car's geared for 4700).
Likely need to order yet another set of needles once we get some track time in this year but at least they should finally be the right ones this time.

What can I say?

[64 DODGE 440]

Had a similar situation on an old airplane I was working on about five years back. It wouldn't make proper static RPM on the ground and after checking compression, mag timing, carb settings and anything else we could think of, did a strobe check of the prop with an optical unit and determined that the tach read 200 RPM low and everything else was spot on.

Beat your head against the wall for a while.......it feels so good when you stop.:D

[Toymaker]

Hey Dick, did you say the switch is on the back of the tach where WE can get to it :D

[64 DODGE 440]

Old6 will be off line for a few days, (computer getting upgraded), but I got a call on the land line yesterday and he seems to have solved his problems.

All I can say is look out Rocky and Lee.......it sounds like he's ready to rock 'n roll.:D

[nexxussian]

Glad to hear he has a handle on it.:)

Now we get to wait for all the gory details of the fix (till his 'puter is fixed).

[Toymaker]

This is gonna be fun :D

[64 DODGE 440]

This is gonna be fun :D

You can bet on it.:D

[Old6rodder]

Howdy folks, I'm back ..........

Got the computer up again today, now I'm getting used to the new stuff and formats.

Also have today and tomorrow sans rain here and got back to diddling on the HAMBster. Now that I have the problem area correctly identified I back-tracked to our original base settings on the timing & tuning and slipped the old needles back in the carbs. Once I got the damn thing to tach past mid-range we found we hadn't been all that far off in the first place.
I'd sunk to questioning possibilities like slipping timing marks on the old damper, skipped timing chain, weakened valve springs and/or burnt seats but a series of basic tests showed all those to be in order.

Turns out to've been mostly carb problems after all. I did a hard core rebuild of'em and threw in some primary modifications this time as well.
The integrated float model SUs use a fuel temperature driven jet tube adjuster for smog applications, thus the old system of "choking" (enriching) the carb with the jet tube was replaced with a seperate circuit for the purpose. The new circuit has quite a collection of seals and fittings, all needing to be in good to excellent shape to function well. Ours were in less than stellar condition to say the least, rendering the carbs all but untunable at mid-range and just barely within the limit of adjustment at idle.

After discussion our final decision was that we don't need no stinking chokes anyway. So rather than fuss with'em I eliminated the circuits (greatly simplifying the whole thing) and she's running very much better now. However I do get to start from scratch on the carb tuning once again.
One favorable thing I noticed when I went back to the old needles though, is that due to the air/fuel imbalance in the wayward "choke" circuits I'd gone rather a bit overboard in needle correction and was seriously rich on the top instead of the lean I'd thought. It actually wants to be leaner than the old needles now. We'll keep'em for later though, as they should be about right for the amount of cam and valve we're considering some day.

I'll have some numbers in a few days .........

So ...... anyone want to buy some slightly used, "spring" style, really rich SU needles? :D


I also want to let you know that Russ is on the "mending" list for likely at least a couple months. He's had a few medical set-backs early this year and had to do some hospital time, but is out now and under family care while he heals and rehabs. He's hoping to be back in the game in time for Butch's first meet this year, and well enough to stay for Randy's as well. He says hi, and promises to refrain from annoying the starters in '09. :D

[64 DODGE 440]

Welcome back.......have the withdrawal symptoms subsided yet?:p

[Toymaker]

Tell Russ hello and we'll take it easy on him! :D

[Old6rodder]

OK, Finally got the SUs doing what they should be doing and I have some numbers again. Clean and strong right up to 5500 with a little crapping left around 6000. Tom thinks it may be valves up there and I think he may be right. We're not running that high anyway so we'll start the season off with what we have and possibly one more minor dist recurve.

Also have some more bits & pieces on'er, I'll pop some new pictures in the album next week.

[Ron Golden]

Dick,

I read your last post and was wondering why you have a curve in the distributor. Why don't you just lock the timing and set the total timing for the best power. I think you'll find the throttle response and low-end TQ will be better. Just a suggestion.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

I guess "curve" isn't exactly the correct term but I'm not sure what would be. We like to have the advance back for idling, mostly to keep the heat down some but also to ease battery starting and to mellow'er out in the pits & lanes. I try to have it all in early enough to not be a problem at the line but it's enough of a balancing act that sometimes even minor carb changes can effect it.

I'm working on a partial cooling system that should lessen the need for it from the heat angle and only add 7 lbs. If that works out well but I don't keep the "idle curve" under control we'll likely quit fussing with it and vote to go "locked" at some point. If so, I'll look into a manual advance lever for the purpose.

Hell, I may just do that anyway ........

[64 DODGE 440]

Don't worry.......you can make it as complicated as you want.......just don't add the "secret sauce".:p

If they would just let us go back to push starting like the old days we could solve a lot of these problems.:D

[Old6rodder]

If they would just let us go back to push starting like the old days we could solve a lot of these problems.:D

Tom, it's enough of a grunt pushing'er by hand up the lanes.
I don't think we could run fast enough to bump'er ..... :rolleyes: :D

[64 DODGE 440]

Tom, it's enough of a grunt pushing'er by hand up the lanes.
I don't think we could run fast enough to bump'er ..... :rolleyes: :D

That's what happens when ya get old.:p

[Old6rodder]

OK gentlemen,

I've added a few pictures of this year's changes and upgrades on the Barn Job to'er build album.

I've also started on her races album. I only have the first '07 ANRA show & tell (last time at Palmdale) in it so far but will be adding the rest as I get time.

For now you'll need to click up from the build album to "sets", then click on the races album. I'll get the links straightened out and hopefully added to the opening post in this thread, if I can figure out how to do it, since the edit thing seems to've timed out for that post.
I figure I'll finally master these computers about the time everyone else drops'em and goes to direct mind linking ...... :rolleyes:

[Toymaker]

Looks great Dick, how's Russ doin'?

[Old6rodder]

He's coming along. He'll be awhile getting past this one and hopes to make April and May, but can't say for sure just yet. I've told'im that if he doesn't I'll just have to buck up and force myself to do all the driving, no matter how much it hurts ......... :( :p

His response wasn't really printable here ........... :rolleyes: :D

[64 DODGE 440]

He's coming along. He'll be awhile getting past this one and hopes to make April and May, but can't say for sure just yet. I've told'im that if he doesn't I'll just have to buck up and force myself to do all the driving, no matter how much it hurts ......... :( :p

His response wasn't really printable here ........... :rolleyes: :D

Hell, most of his responses ain't printable anyway.:D

Tell him Patti and I sent our get well fast wishes too. (If he can't stage fast, at least he can heal fast.):p

[Old6rodder]

Howdy gents,

I've had a few inquiries on this, so here's Russ' address for awhile.
Cards ( & MONEY :rolleyes: ) may be sent there, he's under "house arrest" at ..........

Russ Tidd
79421 Port Royal
Bermuda Dunes
CA 92203

[Old6rodder]

Gentlemen,

It's time to close out this thread and start a fresh '09 one as the edit feature'll time out again and I won't be able to keep the info updated.

Here's the link to the new (continuing) thread .......
Barn Job #18, '09 build thread. (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3744841#post3744841)

See you there ..............