rear bone

[Paul]

here is day 14 in my modified build series.

today I bit the bullet and hacked the bejeezus out of a real cherry '36 rear wishbone http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I shortend them, angled them in and down to attach to the new receiver socket using the pivot ball cut from the split '36 front bone.

I got the driveshaft back today too..

first I got the frame and axles square and level

front;

[Paul]

and rear

[Paul]

I cut the front pivot to better fit the new bone angle

[Paul]

then cut and fit the bones

[Paul]

and installed the driveshaft

[Paul]

rear cut

[Paul]

and front

[Paul]

side view showing some pretty drastic angles

[Paul]

and one from above

[Jeff Norwell]

Hey Paul,whats the angle on the D-shaft......not trying to be smart/just asking http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Paul]

I cut the bones long with a sawsall and fit with a 7" grinder with a new disc.

I have been using my mig to tack and weld the frame but will use the tig to weld up the bones.

I guess that's it for now.. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

to be continued!

Paul

[Paul]

tailshaft down 4 degrees

rear yoke up 2 degrees

driveshaft up 8 degrees

bones down 6 degrees

center of axle to center of pivot 32"

center to center U joints 14"

pretty drastic http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Paul

[Killer]

very nice. like the daily updates too... make sure and tell us how long it takes to weld up the chassis!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd set that pinion angle at 0-3 degrees down.

[Paul]

when the suspension compresses the pinion angle tips down becoming even further out of phase with the tailshaft.

another anoying effect of this setup is that when the frame rotates on a longitudinal axis the eccentric location of the ball and socket swings right and left causing a rear stear situation.

I suppose this could be compensated for using an anti sway bar in the rear..

Paul

[Paul]

the more I think about it the more I'm tempted to tear the fucker apart and redo the whole thing http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Mild Mitch]

I've got a buddy that has the same set up under a T on A frame. Identical, tho with an 8" diff. Drives and handles real well. It was put together by Tardel and Fuller years back. It works, I'd bet that because your wheelbase is so short you won't really notice any of the concerns you've mentioned.
Looks real good from this angle anyways!
my $.02
Mild Mitch

[Paul]

thanks Mild Mitch, your $.02 is appreciated, I needed it.

Paul

[Paul]

It would be nice if this hot rodding stuff was all fun and games but occasionally you run into an unfamiliar territory that becomes somewhat of a challenge.

I will take a more concentrated look at it tomorrow but I think with a few minor adjustments it will work without redoing the whole thing.

Paul

[dehudso]

You have done very awesome work so far. I'd hate to see you tear up all that ingenuity.
Is there anyway that you could raise the rear of the tranny, to get the angles looking good?

[flt-blk]

The angle on the bones doesn't bother me, but the pinion does.

A line through the tailshaft and through the pinion should
be paralell with the suspension at rest.
TZ

[Paul]

dehudso, that is one consideration.

I may raise the tailshaft like you suggest and also raise the rear of the frame, both just slightly,
that should help the angle of the driveshaft.

the front spring is way too soft and niether spring is even bolted to the frame yet so it's a little early to see exactly what's happening.

I think I'll have the wife check my horoscope, I think it was just a challenging day http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

[Paul]

flt-blk,

the two are within two degrees of paralell now and if I make those small adjustments it will take care of that.

it will also help reduce the total angle between the tailshaft and driveline.

Paul

[Tim]

lookin good,

ive always wondered what you do with a car lowered so much that the rear end ends up heigher then the tail shaft, all the funky angles and what not....

hell i guess if big red neck trucks can pull off stupid angles you aught to be able to figure something...

good luck

[volken65]

Keep these post coming Paul.

Now these are the threads that should always be on the HAMB...

[haring]

Your rear spring perch / wishbone mount ... is that stock? What years? Has it been angled in?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. I don't have any gennie parts to compare. I have a '48 truck banjo that would have used parallel springs and I'm trying to figure out a good way to locate it.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
The angle on the bones doesn't bother me, but the pinion does.

A line through the tailshaft and through the pinion should
be paralell with the suspension at rest.
TZ


[/ QUOTE ]

what he said...

And I'd chamfer the radius rod tubes where your welding them back together. Are they doubled inside? All the engine torque is going on them.

But Damn, you've got a lot of fine work done..You gonna chop till ya drop?

I likes it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[The Harpoon]

I like your chassis there 60's style. I plan on an unsplit rear bone setup myself. All I must say though is those rear bones need reinforcing where you are making the rear welds as that is where they usually snap, but you probably already know this.

[randy]

I would think that you might be able to raise the whole motor and tranny combo vertical - upwards to a higher position between the frame rails. I looks like you've got a bit of space between the trans tail shaft and the top of the frame cut out.

JUST raising the tailshaft of the trans may put the motor at a funky angle, but raising the whole thing MIGHT untweak that angle a bit. Then again, you don't want the motor sitting too high...

Just some thoughts.

-r

[burger]

Paul,

Those driveline angles wont work. I ran them through the company's driveline analysis software, and your u-joint inertias are about 30x more than what's allowable.

The short driveshaft length is screwing you.

For starters, you want the pinion and tailshaft to be at the same angle. If you're setting up a race car this may be different, but from the standpoint of minimalizing torsional vibration, BOTH ANGLES MUST BE THE SAME.

According to our software, you can run the driveshaft with a MAXIMUM 2° difference in angle between the driveshaft and tailshaft/pinion.

Example #1: Tailshaft and pinion at 2°, driveshaft level. To get there, raise the tailshaft 2" and rotate the engine 2°.

Example #2: Tailshaft and pinion at 4°, driveshaft at 2°. Raise the entire engine & tranny assembly 2.5" and rotate the pinion 2°. I like this on best, as it will keep the manifold level (assuming it's on a 4° base).


Ed

[Paul]

[ QUOTE ]
And I'd chamfer the radius rod tubes where your welding them back together.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thought there is to tig weld them with a nice deep fusion weld without adding filler rod and then add a couple small horizontal reenforcing plates to the sides of the rear joints and wrapping the front joints with bands all made from left over tube pieces..

all tig welded and with as little or hopefully no foreign filler material.

..or am I sniffing the neigbors panties on that one? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

...............

a note for the beginers;

this is why we tack everthing together while fitting, so we can make adjustments and alterations along the way.

so far I have had to do very little rework but what I did do would have been a real drag if it were welded solid.

Paul

[Paul]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the entire engine & tranny assembly 2.5"

[/ QUOTE ]

edmurder,
I know, I know, but I really liked the way it was looking, that's why I was thinking a combination of raising the engine/transmission and frame an inch each, that would keep the visual relationship between the engine, frame and body relatively similar, astheticly speaking..

hmm, that will mean relocating the front wishbone mounts to maintain a good working angle up there, not a big deal.

I also need to get a better angle finder, the POS plastic cheapo I'm using may not be giving me true readings..

Paul

[Paul]

this is what it looked like just before the rear bone installment,

[Paul]

and here it is with the frame and engine/trans raised an inch each..

[DrJ]

Since this thing's all only tacked I'm gonna tell ya what I don't like about the hat before you buy it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The wishbone mount looks goofy hanging down there in the profile shot.
Remedy for lotsa stuff...
Flip your middle X member upside down so the tailshaft can ride on top of it and the engine can be raised to needed 2-1/2"
Get rid of the "U" the wishbone is on and tack your wishbone mount directly to the bottom of the flipped "X" member.
That might just get the 4º you need in the pinion angle too.
The pinion and engine angles have to be the same at rest, wet and loaded (Yea, the pinion angle is gonna change when it bounces or gets loaded so set it up with luggage, gas and passenger weight in it.)
ANd with the engine higher in the frame you can lower the front end another 4" if you want to. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Paul]

ok, one last picture before I get back to it,

although the angles discussed are vastly improved as you can see, and I do think will work well,

now the whole car sits higher then I wanted..

I'll play with it some more before I weld it up, maybe give it a little more rake..

.......

later,

Paul

[burger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the entire engine & tranny assembly 2.5"

[/ QUOTE ]

edmurder,
I know, I know, but I really liked the way it was looking, that's why I was thinking a combination of raising the engine/transmission and frame an inch each, that would keep the visual relationship between the engine, frame and body relatively similar, astheticly speaking..

hmm, that will mean relocating the front wishbone mounts to maintain a good working angle up there, not a big deal.

I also need to get a better angle finder, the POS plastic cheapo I'm using may not be giving me true readings..

Paul



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, how 'bout a comprimise then. Bring the rear of the engine up 2" and the front 1". That should tilt the engine about 2°. Run your driveshaft level and the pinion at 2°. The carb bases wont be level, but you could fix that by angle milling the intake if you even think that's necesary..


Ed

PS- I hear ya about the aesthetics. My engine is mounted a few inches higher than would be convenient so it would look "right".

[Paul]

I hear you DrJ,
it does look goofy hanging down so low, but in the profile shot if you draw a straight line from the contact patch of the rear tire up through the pivot ball it looks to me that it damn near passes through the cars center of gravity, this would be the optimum location for my instant center.

what size head does your hat wear? anyway? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif and where the hell did I put my haberdasher?

this part was becoming a struggle yesterday but today it's almost fun, again..

funny how the mind works.. aint it?

[NealinCA]

[ QUOTE ]
now the whole car sits higher then I wanted..


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It looked so "right" before you raised it up.

Here is a thought about a compromise. I know the banjo rear end looks neat (that is why I am running one also), but if it makes you end up with a stance you aren't happy with, is it worth it? If you go to a 8", 9", etc the pinion will be a couple of inches lower, which would be a big help in your case. It would be something to consider.

Neal

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]


...what size head does your hat wear? anyway? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ...



[/ QUOTE ]

8-3/8ths I think.
I can't wear them adjustable baseball caps because even on the last snap they're too tight for my fat head! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Paul]

NealinCA,

yeah, I know and I do have an early 9" and domed wheels to fit..

then I might as well yank the little Stude motor, cause the frame and rearend would be way overkill, I think they could handle a big block..hmmmm

nah, I'll give it a little more rake, and some headers or some fancy exhaust like up along the bed sides to help the look..

Paul

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
...if you draw a straight line from the contact patch of the rear tire up through the pivot ball it looks to me that it damn near passes through the cars center of gravity, this would be the optimum location for my instant center.

...



[/ QUOTE ]

How about (photoshopping) some side pipes or straight pipes that end just before they get in the way of the wishbones to hide the bones and fill in some of the "air space" under the frame?

[Paul]

[Tim]

?

[Tim]

lol i think we posted those at the exact same time lol

[Kilroy]

I know it's pricey but what about a QC center section?

The pinion is moved down then and might help out without losing the over-all feel of the project. You could send the center section off to Wilson Welding and have him convert it for a reasonable ammount.

I'm just thinking here...

[SamIyam]

Looking good paul!

You are an inspiration to us all, man.

Are you planning on lowering the rear spring cross member? It looks like your shackels are horizontal while the set up blocks are still in there.

I know you already know this... but maybe an esplanation to the masses as to what yer going to do would be good.

Sam.

[Jeff Norwell]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking good paul!

You are an inspiration to us all, man.





Correct......you inspire.

[Big A]

Ditto

For dumb-asses like me this is a real education. Keep it coming, and thanks.

[2tall2beahotrodder]

?

[SwitchBlade327]

I've beeb following alnog this entire post and I'm still lost on all this angle talk. You best believe I'm gonna be posting about this stuff when I get to it....

[Paul]

thanks Sam, and all,

[ QUOTE ]
I know you already know this... but maybe an esplanation to the masses as to what yer going to do would be good.


[/ QUOTE ]

I will drop the middle of the rear cross-member, I just picked up a new front spring that should bring the front end up and I'll have to make some new motor mounts to raise the front of the motor, the transmission mount hasn't been made yet so I don't have to redo that...yet. haha. But if I do all that, the drive-line angles all start looking real good.

The sad, sad truth is I just got a call from work, they want me back starting Monday.. I was hoping for two more weeks.. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Today marks the end of three weeks on this thing, with prolly a total of about eighty or ninety hours..

The posts will continue but not as often, with my limited time now I need to get back on the Coupe..

Paul

[JOECOOL]

Maybe this will help you http://www.rosslertrans.com/Tips/Pinon.htm