Twin Flatheads for the Street! How nuts is THAT?

[SlowLearner]

I know the saying; “Simplificate, and add lightness”, but….I’ve got three late flatmotors (in storage just now, DAMN!), two 8BA’s and a Mercury. And, I bought a ’36 Packard rolling chassis awhile back. Thirty-six was the last year (I think) for the I-beam front axle. Think Ford F350 frame. Front rails fully boxed. Side rails are 8”channel at their deepest. (stock rear axle ratio is 5.26:1!)…, the original motor was likely 800lbs.+. The same chassis (I think) was used for the Packard V12, and I’m told that motor weighs in over 1000 lbs.!

Original plan was to shorten the big fella (wheelbase is 127”!) to more like a deuce size (108?). Then, I hit on my late 20’s (LeMans) Bentley build plan. Then, I started worrying that a lil ole flat V8 would be lost in a frame designed for a big straight eight, and might not have the suds to move this heavyweight quickly.

I started lusting after Pierce-Arrow V12s (Seagrave used'em for fire trucks til the 70’s), or a Buick straight eight…a Jag six, or even (God help me) a Reo Gold Comet 6 from a truck. Still…I’m on a tight budget.

Anyway, I went with my wife while she bought some clothes today. Works for both of us, I get to pick up a car mag to read while she tries stuff on. I picked up the latest Rodders Journal…..and saw a tiny little pic of the “Freight Train” digger. HMMMMmmmmm.

I haven’t done all the measuring yet, but I THINK I could fit two of the flatmotors between the front cross member and the (ginormous) X member of this thing. Think Brooklyn Bridge! (no, wait, that’s light and airy), think railroad bridge (e.g., The Firth of Forth).

So, whaddaya think? Link the two together with double row roller chain on sprockets. Maybe mount the two together on a sub frame, using solid mounts at the water pumps, then mount the sub to the chassis with donuts or something. Twin ignitions, or just run both from a single Nash (Twin-Fire) distributor? Any thought on how to phase the two?

I need input how to DO it! Tell me how I CAN! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Grinder]

dam now I won't be able to sleep to night will be to busy building you car in my dreams hahaha no really go for it

[autocol]

i hate chain drives... too much stretching and adjusting...

perhaps each motor could have its own flywheel, which could drive a gear mechanism between them, which would feed into the gearbox?

just thinking out loud... i don't know whether the teeth on a stock flywheel (used by the starter motor) would hold up to constant use...

[Deuce Rails]

It sounds too complicated to me.

Go for a Seagraves 462! And if you can't find one, just use a Lincoln V-12 flathead. I know it's a lot smaller, but it would be a LOT simpler and less expensive to machine cool twin-plug heads for a Lincon engine than it would be to hook up two V-8s.

I love the look of the Jaguar six, too. The cam cover and the SUs look great, and have that Bentley under-the-hood look.

A lot of that old-time charm comes from all the ancilliary items. Using polished brass, copper and aluminum for all the bits under the hood. It doesn't matter as much what block you have. Beautiful brackets, linkages, lines and covers on almost any old engine will probably capture the look you lust after.

[Machinos]

V16 hotrod...mmmmm

[mikes51]

There was a 53 Stude at Billetproof yesterday, had 2 flatheads. Most of us thought the front one wasn't hooked up. Owner said they were linked via some hydraulic system.
I didn't understand it by looking at it, perhaps someone else knows about this type of hookup or knows of the car.

[Deyomatic]

I want to know, too. I've been wondering for a couple months but never asked anything because I'll most likely never do anything. I remember hearing that they did in in the 60s when they outlawed nitro, and I thought it would be cool to do it on the street for some extra UMPH.

I would love to know the ins and outs of them. Is there some old book about twin engine dragsters?

[SlowLearner]

Deyo, there's a great site on those dragsters, at:

http://www.twotogo.homestead.com/index.html

I only wish there was more tech. (Of course none of the draggers worried about cooling at road speeds).

It was Flipper got me thinking about the twin thing awhile ago, with this thread:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=107653&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=twin%20engine&Match=Entire%20Phras e&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=106259&Se arch=true#Post107653.

Still pondering! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Keith

[orange52]

You might want to check with the tractor pulling crowd. they run multiple V8's a lot. A friends dad used to run a pulling tractor with five Big Block Olds motors on it. Not a clue how he hooked them up, all I've seen is pictures and the trophy's

[SlowLearner]

[ QUOTE ]

Go for a Seagraves 462! .....
A lot of that old-time charm comes from all the ancilliary items. Using polished brass, copper and aluminum for all the bits under the hood. It doesn't matter as much what block you have. Beautiful brackets, linkages, lines and covers on almost any old engine will probably capture the look you lust after.

[/ QUOTE ]
Deuce Rails, I'm all for the Seagrave..if one showed its pretty head(s) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm with you on "ancillaries"!

[kustombuilder]

i like this idea ALOT and i don't think the chaindrive would be much of a problem for THIS setup. i've seen it used on some dragsters with LOTS more torque than you'll have. i think it would be the easiest and most economical way to go about it.


what type of body are you planning on running on this thing? sounds like you are looking to do something along the lines of the Blastolene Special Jay Leno just bought?? WAY COOL!!

[kustombuilder]

SLOWLEARNER: send me an email, i have some questions for you off board but i see you have no email in your profile. kustombuilder@earthlink.net

thanks
Mike

[av8]

How about a clone of the Kenz & Leslie twin-motor truck that ran at Bonneville during the first SpeedWeek in 1949? They were back the following year with their sweet streamliner, but that truck helped them sort out the driveline scheme.

[a/fxcomet]

Maybe get in touch with Lewis Racing http://www.nwdragracing.com/Pages/WBSelect_1.html as seen here. Maybe some of the Washington Hambers know them?

Also, Flathead Jack has a twin http://www.flatheadjack.com/content/racing/racing01.html .

I've seen both of these and the both use a coupler setup.

http://www.twotogo.homestead.com/ .

[Rocknrod]

Nah.. what you really need to setup is a twin differential setup... two transmissions, two clutch pedals... a shifter thats a horse shoe so you can shift em at the same time...

Where one motor drives one tire, the other drives the other side.

start one up, in second the other in first... have a smokey donut. Or one in first and one in reverse...

Only side effect of it would be... you'd need a cab over style car... or a super high boy! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SlowLearner]

RocknRod, how come I don't think you're taking this thing seriously.

av8, Thanx for that pic. Kenz & Leslie sure thought outside the box. I'm looking to put the two together tho, for lots of underhood motor.

a/fx, Thanks for those sites. I especially liked the Flat Jack photos. Dunno how I'm gonna cope with cooling, and pumps for the rear block.

kustombuilder, here's a coupla pics of inspiration:

http://photo.starblvd.net/~SlowLearner/1-3-4.jpg

http://photo.starblvd.net/~SlowLearner/t1-5-3.jpg

First one is a shorter wheelbase than I've got right now. The second one (I think) is just about the same w/b as I've got. (Sorry for tiny pic)

I can't bend tin, so I'm thinking fabric body over wood (ash? spruce?) framing.
Great site here on that:
http://www.nwvs.org/Technical/RonLimbrickSpeedster/MMSpeedster.shtml

I figure I've got time and bucks for ONE car (only)! I want it to be a challenge to build (it is already, just scrounging), and a blast to drive. Doesn't have to be fastest, just feel that way. Loud, and lotsa wind! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Still trolling for tech tips, guys

[choprods]

Ive got a flathead and a half[to spare....]\ its a 336 cu in monster from an F7 big job-1951 Ford fire truck/lo mi......no plans for it NOW....sold the car.

[AnimalAin]

Check your archives for the article on Tom McMullen's Austin. Had two little chevy motors in it in the early 60s. To hear the story, it was pretty impressive, and had ....ahem.... modest technology. The article I recall was in PHR in the early 60s.... not sure which issue.

[kustombuilder]

i like it! the fabric body sounds neat, kinda like the REALLY old airplanes but bendin tin is fun, there are TONS of videos out now and if your not in a big hurry i think you would really enjoy the learning experience of building your own body from aluminumm or steel. go real old skool and gas weld it all (the body that is). someday i WILL build my own body from sratch!!

good luck, keep us posted.

[Deuce Rails]

[ QUOTE ]
...the Blastolene Special Jay Leno just bought??

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he really buy the Blastolene? Good for the builder, Randy Grubb. Does anyone have any idea what it went for?

[Deuce Rails]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't bend tin, so I'm thinking fabric body over wood (ash? spruce?) framing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't rule out being able to make your own body out of aluminum. If you're going to make a wooden frame anyway, you can certainly stretch fabric over it, but it's not a lot harder to beat aluminum panels to cover it.

I would strongly recommend Ron Colvell's video called "Shaping Aluminum with Hand Tools" available at www.covell.biz. (http://www.covell.biz.) (You can also get it from Eastwood.) It's not cheap, but its informative as hell. Check out metalshapers.org too.

For inspiration, here's a guy who's making his own Daytona Cobra Coupe:
http://members.aol.com/COUPECHUCK/index.htm

http://members.aol.com/coupechuck/PHOTOS/3-012s.jpg

The body you're talking about is a LOT simpler.

Just consider it.

[SlowLearner]

Hey Deuce, thanks, that Cobra is Art!!
There's a nice bunch of pics of a simple metal body being formed by a guy over here:

http://www.highrail.com/spdbld1.html

I admit, it has me thinking.

[Unkl Ian]

Compound curves are not as difficult as they might seem,especially if you can weld.Check out the alblums on:Metalshapers.org (http://www.metalshapers.org) and don't miss: Metalshapers Yahoo board (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metalshapers)

[SlowLearner]

Thanks body guys. As always, Unk, thanks for the links.

I'm more concerned just with the mechanics of the twin motor set up. Wondering if it is truly feasible in street trim.

If I'm linking the two at the cranks, I can't drive the pumps on the back motor from the crank pulley (or I'd have to split the two in order to change a belt. If I used the early cam and cover for the back one, maybe I could drive the pumps off a pulley on the cam snout. Only problem there would be driving the pumps at half (or so) speed, unless I messed with pulley ratios. AND, cuz the flattie cam is gear driven, the pumps would be spinning opposite to their usual rotation. How much would it matter. (OKAY!, I could correct the rotation with some gear & pulley off the cam snout). At least I wouldn't have to pull the two motors apart to change a belt. Maybe this thing could work!

And, I'd probably have to take ALL of the ignition off a (Twin) distributor on the front motor. I've got stock (Ford) aluminum heads in both early and late design. I could use the early heads for the front and late for the rear and tie them together in a branched line to the rad.
And run an extension of the lower rad hose along the oil pan to the rear pumps.

I'm getting serious about this!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Looking for tech suggestions.

[burndup]

WHAT??? you're nuts! A ChrisTitusCertifedDEATHROD(tm) for damn sure! I wouldn't want to be within a block's radius when that chain let go!


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


DO IT!!!!!!

I've always liked the frankenstinian El Dorado/toronado, etc fwd for the front, standard rwd V8 driveline for the rear kind of idea.

[Scribe]

From what I understand the Blastolene sold for DEEP in the six figures. Randy had a hell of a lot of work in that car, so he really deserves it.

I've been interested in twin engine cars for a while now, as my dad has always dreamed of building a twin engine Model A. The freight train style twins with a chain coupler seems to be the best way to go. Scott Guildner restored The Invader for Ron Martinez, and he was touching some stuff up at the shop a few months ago and I got to really look it over. With twin side-by-side engines/transmissions with two differentials sharing a common center axle, it really is a frighting "show only" kinda ride. If one motor caughs or surges, the thing will jump sideways or start doing doughnuts. Of course the problem with twin motors in a small car like a Model A is how to cool them both, but the best we've been able to think up so far is to put one radiator in the stock posistion, and another in the trunk with a fan and air pickup in the bottom of the trunk and a ton of louvers in the decklid to let the hot air out.

I dunno... this is basically just mental masturbation for us anyway, but if you get something done lemme know, I want to see pictures!

Dan

[Unkl Ian]

Of course,the easy solution is to use one simple motor,and leave the hood closed. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SlowLearner]

Too easy Unk.
I've got an obsession with both flatties and HEAVY metal...a wicked combination.
Gotta sharpen my pencil! (Or should I say, "polish my rocket") http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mikes51]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a 53 Stude at Billetproof yesterday, had 2 flatheads. Most of us thought the front one wasn't hooked up. Owner said they were linked via some hydraulic system.
I didn't understand it by looking at it, perhaps someone else knows about this type of hookup or knows of the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the pic from Travis' post.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/166193-Mvc-004s.jpg

oppps, I thought they were flatheads, but they appear to be overheads according to another pic I saw. It must have been the heat that day.

[SlowLearner]

That DEFINES "rude Stude"! Funny looking flatties tho.
Looks like a lot of radiator happening.

Does anyone know whose car that is? Who built it? Any more pics?

I could kind of see a hydraulic hook up (sorta like a torque converter), but wouldn't that reverse the rotation from input to output?

GOD, I love the HAMB! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hemi]

The Stude was driven in. Both motors run. The rear one is connected to the back axle with a driveshaft like normal. The front motor had a hydraulic pump on the back, and a resevoir inside the car. The front motor spins the pump and there is a hydraulic motor mounted in the back on the rear axle.

He has a blower style pulley adn belt set up going from the little motor to the pinion on the rear axle. So the driveshaft comes in at the yolk, there is a pulley mounted just behind that, and then the axle housing.

I think he said it runs 3500 psi....if that's right.
Basically, the rear mounted engine drives the car, and the front one is an auxilary one.
The mounting of the Hydraulic motor had broken on the drive in, as he was still working the bugs out of it, so he disconnected it, and drove home under the power of the rearward engine.

It's all street legal.

[SlowLearner]

HEMI, thanks for the explanation. Geez, sounds muy complicated!

Still it's nice to be able to limp home on ONE engine if the other goes away. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
So, whaddaya think? Link the two together with double row roller chain on sprockets. Maybe mount the two together on a sub frame, using solid mounts at the water pumps, then mount the sub to the chassis with donuts or something. Twin ignitions, or just run both from a single Nash (Twin-Fire) distributor? Any thought on how to phase the two?


[/ QUOTE ] I think I'd couple the two cranks together with a double row chain,like you originally suggested.Stock V belt to drive the water pump on the rear motor.Each motor would have its own distributor,with a MSD.Then adapt it to a latemodel automatic transmission.

[Unkl Ian]

Does anyone know more about hydraulic motors? Is there a maximum rpm?

[kustombuilder]

what would be so hard about pulling the double row chain off and slipping the belt between the two gear if you had to change a belt??? it's not like you'd be changin em everyday!! try not to over complicate it and i think it'll be alot more fun and alot easier to build and maintain. my 3 1/2 cents!!!


Mike

[SlowLearner]

Unk and kustom, I think you guys are right about the chain and the V belt idea. If I get too carried away with this, I'll design myself right outta the project and wind up just jerkin myself off, as Scribe suggested.

I really DO have some measuring to do before I post much more on this. The thread has had a good run. Thanks guys for all the info (and not scoffing)! I'll keep ya posted.

And if it starts to come together, kustom has first dibs on my merc crank (he asked first). Will run the Fords (all things being equal, and another merc doesn't fall in my lap) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Deuce Rails]

Also, in 1935 Alfa Romeo tested its Bimotori, under the guidance of Enzo Ferrari. One engine in front and one in back. I'm not really sure how the details worked.

[kustombuilder]

looks like it's front wheel drive if you look close. one motor runs the front and the other the rear i'd bet.


thanks Slowlearner. i'll be waiting for that Merc crank http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

i don't have time to read all the stuff on here i'd like to but i'l keep an eye out for threads you start so i can see progress of this one. it's gonna be KOOOOL!!!

[johnny2slick]

I remember a couple of twin engine cars. The "Bustle Bomb" dragster had a Cadillac motor up front and an Olds rocket out back. Another was the "Pinnochio" 32 ford roadster that was built by Magoo back in the eighties. It had two Ferrari motors inline with a stretched front end. Neat engineering, but the car was not terribly attractive. My buddy Jack ran a twin V-60 flathead powered dragster in 1952 and i'll ask him how he coupled them, but from memory I think it was with some kind of trick crank coupler that he made.
As far as that Studebaker is concerned, I only can wonder.......WHY???

[Jimv]

Couple of years ago in the back of Rod & custom they had a picture of a twin engine dragster witht he motors side by each , they where tilted & the guy "meshed" the flywheels to sync them!!! Insane or what??
I think an olds toranado drive chain could be used someway.
Jimv http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SlowLearner]

kustom: progress is gonna be SLOOOW. This weekend though, I hope to do some measuring, and see if I can do this without a whole LOT of cutting.

johnny: I'd be REAL interested in your friend's ideas (wow, lore from 52!). I'll have to try to check out that Pinnochio. Musta missed it. Magoo's done some nice engineering. But two v12s in a deuce gotta make for one LONG nose!

jimv: I'm with you on "meshing flywheels", not the strongest of gears. I was also considering that Toronado toothed belt chain. But wrapped tightly around the circumference of the two sprockets up close to each other and in line. (no side by each for this plan).

[Unkl Ian]

If you can get ahold of a Browning catatog,they have just about all the sprockets and chains you could ever need.

[kustombuilder]

the twin engine dragster your talking about was TV Tommy Ivo's twin Nailhead powered dragster. the flywheels were meshed together and ran through a single 'in and out box'. the problem is one of the engines has to run backwards and that requires a custom ground cam amoung other modifications. Kent Fuller built that car for Ivo and it was very successful back in the middle sixties. an up side to the motors running in opposite directions is that there is no 'torque twist' when the car launchs, it goes nice and straight.

i believe it is the Standard 1320 web site that has a few construction shots of how Fuller coupled the engines. www.standard1320.com (http://www.standard1320.com)

Mike

[kustombuilder]

just remembered an article that i believe was in one of the earlier issues of CKDeluxe about a guy (think his name was Ed Wood) that had a 64ish Chevelle he did some wild mods too including putting two Olds V8s in line with each other. i believe he built his own coupler that utilized a U-joint with a yolk on either side that was welded to a plat that bolted to the back of one motor at the crank and the front of the other at the crank. i don't know why i'm remembering all this NOW and did'nt before. try to find that copy of CKD or do a search on the net. FYI: the car later sported an Allison V12!!!


Mike Brimm