351 Cleveland or Modified? Blue Oval Guys - Help?

[Southfork]

After having been burned once by a guy who claimed his 351M engine was a 351C, I was happy to see Fat Hack's 351C Overview thread a month ago. Figued the next time I went looking, I'd know the difference. WTF? Maybe not:
I respond to an add in the local paper about a 351C engine for sale for $150. With Fat Hack's overview in mind, i go to check it out:

- Eight valve cover bolts per head? Check,

-a "2" or a "4" in the upper let corner of the head? Check, there's a "2" there which correspondence with 2 barrel intake manifold.

- Small bolt pattern for bell housing, with 5 inches between the upper two bolt holes? Check,

So I conclude that this is a 351 Cleveland with the 2v heads, and I fork over the $150 and haul it home. Then this morning, I take this engine to the local podunk automotive maching shop (town population 2000), and the machinist looks at it and tell me that it's either a 351M or a 400M, and that he's sure about that! I point out the above-mentioned clues that the engine is really a Cleveland, but he says it's a Modified! WTF? Is he full of shit, or did i miss something in the identification routine? Fat Hack or Flat Earnie, any suggestions?

[Southfork]

another pic of the left head:

[Southfork]

One of the bellhousing bolt pattern showing 5 inches between the top two bolt holes:

[Southfork]

One last pic. What do you think? Did I get hoodwinked again?

[scarliner]

Hey South, to make a long story short,a 351C is a small block with big heads.A 351M is a big block.The Cleveland has a small block tranny bolt pattern.The 5 1/8" between the upper two bolts is a small block,on a big block these bolts a 7 3/4".Looks to me like you have a Cleveland.Let the FORD GODS SPEAK NOW!

[brianf31]

Most (but maybe not all) 351M/400 have a rib on the top of the block, right next to the LH side of the distributor. Since your engine doesn't have that, and judging by the width of the intake, I'm betting it's a 351C.
I measured the distance between the front intake bolts on my 351C. I get 7.75" on center. Check yours. If it's wider, it's a 351M or 400.
That electronic distributor is confusing. Did it come out of a '74 model car? By the way, any 351M/400, 429 or 460 distributor will fit the 351C.

[Southfork]

Brian, I don't know what the engine came out of. I bought it from a guy who said his brother had rebuilt it and put it in his Ford pickup to replace a whacked 302. It started to leak at the rear main and rather than have the leak fixed, he put something else that was running good in the pickup. That was 10 years (and 5000 miles) ago. the engine has been in the brother's garage ever since, and he needed to make room, so was selling off a bunch of stuff. BTW the front intake bolts appear to be somewhere around 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 inches apart center to center. Same with the rear intake bolts.

[Fat Hack]

That thar's a CLEEEEEVELAND...two barrel Cleveland to be exact!

Easily confusing to some, but pretty easy to spot once ya get the hang of it!

Ya done GOOD, Grasshopper!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Zeke]

I was gonna say looks like a clevland to me. Good score!

[spark]

Windsor has the water outlet in the intake manifold, Cleavland has it coming straight up from the block- you have a Cleavland.

[Flat Ernie]

Southfork,

It's quite simple, really - you need a new machine shop!!

Definitely 351C. No doubt about it. The distributor is out of a later model I think - I'm not aware of any electronic 351C because they only made them '70-'73 - prior to the '74 debut of dura-spark.

What are the casting numbers on the intake? (don't need to prove it to me, I want to prove it to your machine shop)

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Fat Hack]

Ernie...some 74 models in the States got 351 Clevelands from the factory. Not sure how many exactly, but I know of a 74 Montego that had one. Can't recall if it was points or electronic, though!

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
some 74 models in the States got 351 Clevelands from the factory

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...will have to see if I can find my books. I would have sworn the Cleveland was a 4-yr wonder.

Interestingly, I did a quick Google on "Mercury Montego" 351C & came up with Hedman Headers showing headers for 70-73, but that could be body/chassis limited. Was there a design change in the Montego in '74? Never paid much attentio to those things - uuuuggggly!

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[Radshit]

Also a thing to take into consideration......351 Clevelands share the same distributor as 351M, 400, 429, and 460..........they made the 460 for quite a lot longer then the 351 Cleveland......

[MercMan1951]

What surprises me is that this "rebuilt" engine has the old 1970's Ford Duraspark spark plug wires on it still? Hmmm.

[jerry]

read the posts!

it sat in a garage for 10 years!


jerry

[MercMan1951]

I did read the posts. Those wires are 30 years old.

[Southfork]

Thanks for the good input, guys. In answer to Ernie's question, the casting numbers(s) on the intake are as follows:

13726548 behind the distributor
D1AE-9425-DA- behind the carb

That the machinist got it wrong is baffling since he is into racing and claimed to have done machine work for racers almost exclusively this past two weeks due to some race that is fast approaching.

BTW, what's the deal with some tradition that the winner of a sanctioned race may have to give away the engine out of his winning car? According to this machinist, that tradition apparently exists at the local races too, although it is seldom, if ever, enforced. Seems like a real big turn off to going racing in sanctioned races if after all the hard work, expense and skill in putting together a winning motor goes to benefit somebody else when you win ?????

[Fat Hack]

Not a huge difference in the 73-74 Montegos...much like Ford Torinos, same chassis.

Probably, 351-C engine got installed as a means of using up what was left when the customer ordered a 351 engine in 74 for the first month or so.

My ex wilfe had a 1980 Buick with a Buick 350 from the factory, even though catalogs and such list 79 as the last year for the Buick 350...it happens!

The Montego I remember was a 74 belonging to a buddy's Dad. He bought it new, and I tuned it up a few times for him. 351C 2v engine.

[Fat Hack]

Southfork, what you are hearing about is a "claimer" rule. To help keep things honest, some racing organizations and classes have a claimer rule in effect. It allows anyone to purchase the winner's long block for a specified price after the race if they elect to.

Just a way to try and insure that nobody gets too carried away trying to trick out their engines!

[Southfork]

Seems like a pretty dumb rule to me, unless of course, the specified price is pretty high. Otherwise, it's a losing proposition for all the effort going into building and tuning the engine.

[Fat Hack]

They do it so that racers will keep their long blocks within the rules, and within a reasonable budget. All you give up is the long block in most cases, you keep your intake, carb, distributor, etc.

Some engine builders offer "claimer engine specials"...budget long blocks built the same to run good for a price that makes them easy to replace. Good engine guys can squeeze the most out of these "claimer engines" with carefull tuning and not give anything valuable away if someone 'claims' their long block!

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[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
D1AE-9425-DA- behind the carb

[/ QUOTE ]

That date code is 1971 - 4 years too early for 351M, unfortunately, the first year for 400M was 1971, so it doesn't "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt to your machine shop. But if you've got to prove to him what you've got, you do need another machine shop.

[ QUOTE ]
351-C engine got installed as a means of using up what was left when the customer ordered a 351 engine in 74 for the first month or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite true, Fat Hack. Lots of leftovers on assembly lines made it to production instead of parts warehouses! Henry's legacy lives on!

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a pretty dumb rule to me

[/ QUOTE ]

The claimer rule is in place so folks won't get ridiculous with their engine work. It's meant to keep the playing field level - the incentive is to realize anyone can buy your engine for some modest $$ (usually a few hundred dollars). It's more common on the smaller tracks & the fee is quite low - $300-400. People don't abuse it because it can deteriorate into a vicious circle - it's a bit like pissing in your own yard.

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