second round,,, non electronic fuel injection, anyone?

[brutus t maximus]

in light of the recent post by Ryan, re: taditional content on the board i thought maybe i would redirect or rephrase my earlier post to be more "traditionally" compliant.

what i want to do is build my own fuel injection system, non electronic, or at the very least non computer controlled.
i am convinced i can do this and i am looking to any sources of info on back in the day fuel injection, circa 50's and 60's.

i am aware of the tuneing issues surrounding this sort of thing.

will it be trouble free ,, no!

will it require lots of tinkering and tuning .. yes!

will it be hard to start, buck snort, backfire,, and be unruly... god i hope so!!!

will it go like hell when it is flat on the floor.. probably.

will it look cool, hell ya!!!

will it be traditional,,, i think so!!

anybody got any old articles, sources, idea's, know how, or other direction,,, all would be appreciated.

bob

[Rocket Scientist Chris]

The book "The Best of Hot Rod Magazine, 1949-1959 has an article on Hilborn injection systems. A mechanical fuel injection system looks pretty staight forward as long as you don't need alot of variation in throttle. I guess that's why they work well in racing and not too well on the street. Any way, the article is from October, 1951. Lots of pics and good text, too! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Machinos]

I know a bunch of European luxury cars and sports cars used mechanical injection up until the advent of decent EFI in the 80's, so it MUST be possible to get it to work on the street decently.

[Roothawg]

Not saying that it can't be done, but here is what the mfg. has on their website.








Tech Support
Fuel Injection Engineering provides in-house service, repair, and flow testing of any HILBORN product, as well as technical support by e-mail, phone or FAX.
Downloads


Download our Metering Valve Schematic
Download our Installation Schematic



Questions



Can I run a HILBORN fuel injector on a street car?
How do I change the rotation of the fuel pump?
How do I set the metering valve?
How do I adjust the metering valve?
Which fuel pump should I run?
How do I set the Secondary and Hi-speed By-pass?
How can I avoid corrosion forming on the mag casting?
What difference does ram tube length make?


Answers


Q: Can I run a HILBORN fuel injector on a street car?
A: Our units are manufactured strictly for racing applications and are NOT recommended for street use. The castings are designed for maximum air flow and do not have a metering system for low speed operation. Where most street driving is between 2,000 and 4,000 rpm, racing engines idle at 2,000 and operate from 6,000 to 10,000 rpm!

[metalshapes]

So what Hilborn is saying is that the castigs are the wrong shape and size for the steet.
If Brutus makes his own , he can match it to 800 Idle and Max out at 6000.

[brutus t maximus]

hey metalshapes,, my thoughts exactly..

the hilborn units as well as crower, etc were designed to be race units, i dont want to use their units, but build my own.

i am looking for 1000 to 5000 rpm tops.

i also want to incorporate an idle circuit, an excellerator pump/enrichment and i want to reference the fuel pressure via manifold pressure(vacuum)

the bosch systems used air flow on their mech CIS systems, i figure i should be able to use manifold pressure as a reference for fuel pressure.

granted it will take a lot of doing,, but i got all winter, and i am gettin tired of rubbing out rustoleum.. i figured this would give me something to switch over to for a break.

besides if i can get it to work reasonably well,, would be pretty cool... Traditional???


bob

[FEDER]

Brutus I run a old Hilborn unit on my racecar. The best bit of info has been the catalogs and manuals from Kinsler.They service all kinds of fuel injection and stock about everything under the sun.There FI manual has a real good trouble shooting guide thats helped me out a few times. (248)362-1145 It would be a good place to start.---FEDER

[metalshapes]

Brutus, I like your project. And I'll admire your guts if you follow though ( specially if you get it to run right ).
Is it Traditional? I dont Know, you are basicly building something that was was not there back in the day, out of parts that were.... Just like most of the Rods we are building. Style your manifold after the very first one Hilborn build for his Bonneville car and you should be OK. Look at a Crower U Fab too (but without the log..)
For the rest of the hardware I'd go for as many Of The Shelf parts as possible, I dont see how you could make a Bosch setup look right with that big flapper valve. So that leaves you with the Hilborn, Crower, Etc. Race setups with thyr drivebillety problems ( maybe....) Or something you adapt from a steet car, and that will push you into the 70s ( as far as when most of that stuff was in the showrooms)
My guess is you would have the most chance of success with a Kugelfisher ( German ) or a Spica ( Italian ) Pump, altough parts might be more available with Lucas ( English ).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Many of the CIS systems used an idle air bypass passage to allow for idle speed/mixture corrections as the engine warms up. If the racing injection setups do not allow for this, what about making up a secondary carb system that is a bypass setup, strictly for idle? If it draws air in ahead of the injection butterflies and passes thru a small carb, like off a motorcycle or small gas engine, then is mounted to the injection plenum, the system will have a way to run the engine at idle speed/fuel mixtures, and the idle carb will be unused whenthe injection butterflies are opened up, much the same as a standard carb idle passages are then unused when the throttle opens.

I would think you could possibly get away with a small carb off a little lawnmower engine or similar, since even flowing full throttle mixtures should be enough fuel/air for a larger-displacement engine to be idling...

Doc