Fuel question... Leaded... Unleaded... What's available..??

['Flyin' Dutchman']

I was just thinking about this...
Overhere in The Netherlands we have: unleaded 95oct., unleaded 98oct., and at some gas stations we can get 98 octane with lead substitute. That's what I need for both my car and my bike. Or I have to get unleaded and add lead substitute my self.

When I'm over in the States I always get the cheapo 87 octane fuel, and never even watch at what else is available...
I was wondering... Is leaded fuel still available out there... Because a lot of the old cars you have need the leaded fuel, because they don't have hardened valve seats...

How bad is it anyway for unhardened valve seats in an engine to run unleaded fuel?
How long does it take before it's all messed up when you always run unleaded?

[TINGLER]

Thats a good question man!
I've never seen any leaded fuel here.
It was done away with before I can remember. I have seen little bottles of lead additive in the stores though.

I was also wondering about what people do for ancient engines that need leaded fuel. I have an old Chevy 6 that will hit the streets within a few weeks and I am wondering if I need to get that lead additive or what?

What do you folks out there do?

[Fraz]

Damn, 95 and 98 octane? That's airplane fuel here in the states. Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure airplane fuel has lead in it. Piston engine planes, not jetfuel.

[Tudor]

The truck I had in high school required leaded fuel and I could reall yonly get from one station in town.

I ran it hard on unleaded and it took about 50,000 miles of that before it started to burn oil upon cranking and I replace the 350 when it had 230K on the dial about 30k miles later.

It was not an immediate killer

[Deyomatic]

There are different methods of calculating octane, I don't know if they all come out the same, but my neighbor is a big time engine computer guru/ rally racer and is always talking about different methods.
I'm 25 and can remember when I was a kid that my mother would always ask for Unleaded at the pump. So, I'm assuming that in the early 80s you could still get leaded. Aviation fuel is also leaded, and alot of race gas is leaded, but race gas costs usually at least 2.5 x as much as regular pump fuels and isn't available everywhere.
It also depends on where in the country you are. I'm from the Northeast U.S.A., where you can get 87, 89, and 93 at EVERY station you go to. Some Sunoco brand stations have 94. That is the highest I've seen it. Now out here in Arizona and alot of the southeast, we can only get 87,89, and 91 no matter where you go. Race gas is an option, but who's going to pay for that all the time?
However, what we pay for race gas would probably be comparable to what you pay for low grade, around $4-$5 per gallon.
Lead will also harm Oxygen sensors, and probably other sensors in new cars.

[36-3window]

i haven't seen leaded fuel in a long time. i have two old hondas from the 60's and use the lead substitute in them,but the little bit i drive them i don't think unleaded would hurt much. for a car you plan on driving a lot,i'd install hardened seats in it...the `64 283 chevy for my `36 ford i had them put in, the engine needed rebuilding anyway,and it wasn't a lot of money

[SamIyam]

Leaded gas is not available at the pump... and running av-gas (100LL... LL meaning Low Lead) is a NO-NO because there are no road taxes on Av-Gas... so, we add lead additive to the gas. You can buy lead additive at any gas station or auto parts store...

Anyway, I had an old engine builder guy tell me that if an old car that was ran on leaded gas suddenly converts over to unleaded fuel that the lead impregnated in the exhaust seats is "good enough". He said if you cut the seats... then you should run the additive.

Now this was in the 80's that he said this... so I don't know if it still holds true... or even if it was BS back then... but that is what he said.

My advice would be to add the lead... or have hardened exhaust seats installed in your heads... if you're just out here on holiday with one of your cars or bikes... I say just run the unleaded stuff and you'll be fine.
Sam.

[MBL]

Alright here's my 2 cents....I have driven nothing but cars designed for leaded gas....I had only added the lead additive in the very beginning....I had never noticed a difference...but here's what I have taken from my experience so far. First, Most..and I do say most of these additives are Lead "SUBSTITUTE" not Additive. That is to say that it is not tetraethyl lead in the product that you are adding. As such it does not add to the octane the way the original tetraethyl did. What it does do is offer a cushion for your valve seats like the old stuff....That being said I have heard some studies that show that the substitute stuff is not the best thing to have in your car if you overheat...there is some chemical reaction or something. There was a company out of Georgia some years back that had actual Lead Additive...I don't know if they still have it...further more I actually bought some Leaded gas in GA back in 1995....on my way up to NY in my 65 T-bird....They said that it was for tractors but had no problem putting it into my car...
Tim
MBL

[zman]

Trying to put hard seats in Nailhead heads will most likely ruin them. And they are not needed. The combination of high nickel content and low spring pressure pretty much negates the need. Just FYI...

[Deyomatic]

Sorry, Sam, I should have been more clear. You can probably get into trouble running Aviation fuel because of the tax thing. I've never seen leaded race fuel at a pump, but a station near me sells leaded race fuel that they pump into a gas can and you dump into your car. The same station sells 101 UNLEADED race fuel at the pump. The only other place I've seen leaded race gas is at drag strips, and those are also hand pumped into gas cans, then dumped into the car's tank.

[SamIyam]

No worries brother!

I've bought it and then just poured it into my tank at home!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And I didn't feel that bad about not paying the appropriate taxes... and it smells SO GOOD!

Sam.

[AnimalAin]

In the USA, the advertised octane is the Research octane number plus the Motor octane number divided by two. This corresponds to no actual octane rating of the fuel, but rather the average of two different methods of measurement.

As an additional little-known-and-less-cared-about fact, the research number is the one that used to be advertised back in the dark ages, since it is higher than the motor number.

[Machinos]

There's a crummy little Texaco by my dad's that still sells leaded gas... it's freaking expensive. After 500 miles or so worth of gas money, you might as well just get the valve seats hardened. Unless you have insanely high compression, then I dunno what you'd do http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'll probably never own a car that needs anything more than 91 octane.

[metalshapes]

About 15 years ago, when I was still living in The Netherlands, I ran AvGas in my Race Car.
The C/R of that engine was about 11.5:1 so I had to something to keep the thing from ratling itself to death...
The way I understand it, the gas you buy at the pump changes every summer and winter, and Avgas is more like "winter gas" because of the low temperatures at high altitudes ( but with higher octane and lots of lead...)
I guess that makes it sort of a bad compromise, but at the time it was the best option I had.
Price was about twice the price of pump gas.
A buddy of mine found out where he could buy the gas that was used in the Formula 1 cars at the time, and he could feel some power difference ( that surprised me, I thought they were supposed to run on pump gas ), but at 4 times the price of pump gas that was to expensive for me...

[Unkl Ian]

Unleaded fuel contains a Lead substitute,always has.

[REJ]

I got with some street racers down here in FL about the racing fuel. They mix 8 gals of 93 octane with 1 gal of 110, which is 4.25 a gallon, and say that this makes 100-102 octane.
I tried this in my blown slant six and it has stopped the detonation, so there is something to it.

[Smokin Joe]

The cheap stuff is 85 octane here. I remember all the doom and gloom about valve seats back when leaded went away. "Experts" in magazines were saying the unleaded would burn up your seats in no time. A year later after everyone calmed down it was realized that you'd probably only lose about 5% of the engine's normal mileage before a rebuild. The real problem was detonation. Solved by changing the advance curve and building engines with less compression and different cam profiles. You don't need 12.5 to one compression and a radical solid lifter cam to make power anymore. Turned out it wasn't the end of the world afterall.
If your engine doesn't ping on the cheap shit, it won't help anything to run the expensive stuff. Still, I know people who'll never try anything but the most expensive grade available in any of their cars. We are a nation of sheep, and the advertizers are the dogs that lead us around. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

"Leave us not cloud the issue with facts!" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SamIyam]

The owners manual says run nothing but the 87 octane in my wifes 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee... go finger.
Sam.

[Deyomatic]

Smokin' Joe, what is high test up in Idaho? 85 sucks.

[zman]

[ QUOTE ]
The owners manual says run nothing but the 87 octane in my wifes 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee... go finger.
Sam.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's because that is what the engine is tuned for. The sad fact is that if your engine is tuned for 87 and you run 91 it will make no difference at all and actually may run worse. I did tons of dyno testing with my race bikes and came to the same conclusion. When tuned for 91 or 93 running race gas made no more power than pump and ran hotter. If I re-tuned for race gas (110 Sunoco) I made like 2% more power. If your car will take the lower octane without detonation stick with it. The only thing you'll get with race gas a the good smell.

[chopolds]

Lead is not necessary to run in most old engines. It's valve buffering capability is way overrated. I worked in Exxon Research for almost 15 years, and we did studies on the effects of unleaded gas on engines made for leaded gas. Liability, you know!
In very high load conditions, it makes a small difference. Say, in tow trucks, RV's, or any other high load vehicles. In almost all passenger cars, the leaded gas did not increase valve recession by any great amount.
Lead DID, in fact, cause deposits on the intake valves, which could build up and impede air flow, and therefore, perfomance. Some engines I've seen, the deposits were so great, it was a wonder they would run at all!
Lead does make a good, cheap octane booster. To get unleaded the same octane, they had to use other, more expensive additives, that's why unleaded cost more than leaded, when it came out.
Lead...unecessary. Lead subsititutes...ditto. Unless you're climbing Pike's Peak every day.