STEERING, F-1 Steering Box in 32 ??? av8 or anyone else?

[NealinCA]

I am getting ready to put an F-1 box in my 32 frame.

I talked to Vern at Turlock this year about doing this. He had several different boxes modified in different ways. It all looked so simple then. Now I look at my pile of parts and I have questions.

One type he did, the stock seal area was retained, requiring a larger hole in the frame. It looks like this box was done that way...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/278053-0-0SPEEDLINES1.jpg

Do you possibly have a picture of a steering box done like this? I am curious how far back to machine the housing in relation to where the new frame mounting flange is welded on.

I have another question. All of the holes in my frame have been welded up, so I am starting from scratch. I was thinking of mountig the steering gear a little lower in the frame than stock, maybe centered, to give more header clearance. Will that create any problems that I am not seeing?

Any input would be appreciated. The more I think about things, the more difficult they get http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks,

Neal...inCA

[NealinCA]

Here is what my stock F-1 steering box looks like (roughly). The area in blue is the stock seal location.

[NealinCA]

This is what I remember one of Vern's modified boxes looking like. What I am curious about is the area shown in red. What diameter was that turned down to and how far back from the outside end?

[38Chevy454]

Neal. I like the idea of machining it down ands sticking out a bit further, but most that I have seen just use the stock mounting flange and only the shaft with the pitman arm splines sticks through.

If you were to turn it down, I think a safe diam would be to make it similar to the diam on the body inboard of the flange.

However, if you do all this work, what do you gain besides a little extra pitman arm clearance?

I was under the impression that everyone liked to use the F-1 box because it mounted in the same spot as the original box and gave a better steering box, but otherwise no significant frame mods or steering box mods.

[Paul]

obviously that would be dependant upon collumn and wheel placement and frame width and frame rail angle at mount location, also pitman arm clearance and offset.

prolly need to fit per specific application.

I was thinking of doing a similar thing with a car box to switch it from cross stear to drag link..

Paul

[NealinCA]

Terry - Looking at the box from the top, this is what needs to happen...

[NealinCA]

The mounting flange on the stock box is for a straight frame. The new flange needs to be welded on at an angle to accomodate the frame taper on a 32 frame. Moving it in at the same time gives a little more engine/header clearance.

Vern sometimes mates the flange portion of a 32 box to the F1 box and welds them together. I don't have a donor 32 box, so I plan to go this route, I was just looking for a little more guidance.

Neal

[Kevin Lee]

I would think it all starts at the wheel. Ideally you want the column centered between brake and clutch pedals, correct? So with that in place your other adjustment is tilt. The flatter you want the column to be the further it has to be down the frame rail...and more material has to be removed from the box. I assume that is why he is performing this machine work? To get a flatter column? I think you're just going to have to fit it as you go.

[TV]

Nealin, I have one that we cut down and re-flanged to fit my A frame. We cut the flange off just behind the seal, then we cut the flange off of that ring and saved the ring. We then shortened the shank as much as we needed and welded the ring back on the shank. We then fabed a new flange and welded it back on the shank. If you grind down all the welds and needle gun those areas you never know the box was touched. We did not turn down the seal area, we just cut it off and welded it back on. Ps Vern sells a flange to do this. Hope this helps.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Also you will have to shorten the shaft.

[FORD FAN]

To put the F1 box in my 30 on deuce rails I built a bump out on the outside of the frame to account for the mounting angle difference and also to give me more engine clearance. I think it looks alright. It is obscured by T roadster type headers somewhat.Looking down from the top it is trapizoid shaped to blend in better. BTW, For a pitman arm I bent a 35-36 pitman arm to clear my split bones. It has the same spline pattern but I had to file down the flat sections on the splines to get the correct orientation as it was clocked wrong.

Don

[av8]

Let's try this. Here are the instructions, slightly abbreviated, from the steering book Vern and I are about to publish.
________________________________________

One method of adapting an F-1 or early F-100 steering box to a Deuce frame involves the installation of a Deuce flange on the box. This method is particularly desirable on non-fendered cars with an F-1 box which has the smaller sector shaft and pitman arm that look like the original pieces. I manufacture and sell a new Deuce flange for this conversion ($35 including shipping).

The original flange must be removed from an F-1 or early F-100 steering box before the Deuce flange can be installed. There are a couple ways to remove the steering flange from an F-1 or early F-100 steering box. It can be “whittled” off an ear at a time using a cutoff wheel and grinder. If you have access to a mill or large, slow-turning drill press you can remove it as shown here.


This fixture can be “rented” from VTE. The mandrel with pilot and bolts are included. In addition to a deposit, you will have to pay shipping of the fixture both ways.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50555120.jpg


Install the steering box on the fixture, then use the pilot to position the fixture on the mill or drill-press table. Install the holesaw on the mandrel. You will have to provide a 2-inch holesaw.

Cut at low speed, no more than 100-200 rpm. At low speed there’s no need for cutting oil. Continue cutting until the flange is free of the box.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556736.jpg


Grind the sleeve flush with the cut made by the holesaw, an additional 2 inches.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556729.jpg


The sleeve should look like this.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556721.jpg


Bolt the flange to the outside of the frame and mark the frame for the enlarged hole.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556709.jpg


Enlarge the hole to the new size. Then, bolt the new flange to the inside of the frame.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556697.jpg


With assistance, position the steering column and wheel in the desired position. Insert the sleeve of the steering box through the flange and the frame with ½-inch protruding to the outside. Square the box with the frame and tack it to the flange in three or four places.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556673.jpg


The box, with the flange tacked in place, should look like this.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556663.jpg


Heat the flange and the sleeve of the box, but not so much that they begin to color. This helps reduce weld cracking.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556636.jpg


Weld the flange to the box all around the sleeve and on both sides of the flange. Dress the outer weld to allow the flange to fit flush against the inside of the frame.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4080201/50556579.jpg


That's it. Clearly, it's cheaper to whittle the original flange off of the box than rent the fixture. And because you have to further shape the sleeve on the box with a hand grinder, that method makes even more sense.

[NealinCA]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

That is way more than I asked for, but exactly what I wanted to see.

I have my weekend in the shop planned for me now. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks again,

Neal...inCA

[Levis Classic]

AV8 -

When will that book be out. Tell me a little more about it.

[av8]

L C -- We keep telling ourselves "next month." The book is done, just waiting for completion of the cover art then it's off to the printer.

The Ford steering book is the first in what will be a series of 12-15 on similiar subjects -- brakes, electrical, fuel system, transmission, etc. They're done in the style of the series of dealership technician booklets that Ford did in the early '50s. I'll let you know as soon as we have an availability date.

Here's a dummy of the cover (everything gets mocked up at Tardel's!).

[38Chevy454]

I understand now, thanks to Neal's extra diagram and the excellent photos from AV8. I learn something everyday on here http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[fab32]

av8, I suppose you know what is going to happen to the price of F1 steering boxes after that book makes it to the printers?

Frank

[NealinCA]

Mike -

Thanks again for all of the info.

I got the box machined and a new flange made today. I ended up using a cut-off wheel to get most of the old flange off, then chucked the box up in my lathe and machined it to size. I torched the new flange out and bored a hole in it.

I now need to cut the hole in the frame, fit the box in and weld the new flange on.

Thanks again,

Neal...inCA

[av8]

Excellent, Neal! The turn-down looks concentric with the bore. Did you use the sector shaft as a mandrel in the lathe?

I should have stated Vern's reason for adopting this modification (for Deuce applications) over the original in which the old F-1/F-100 flange is cut off with some of the sleeve and a Deuce flange welded in place. About one-half of the outer bushing length is sacrificed when the old method is used, resulting in a shorter bushing life. It's not critical, but it does mean that the bushings have to be replace more often.

The new method preserves the full bushing length, plus it provides a bit more mental comfort-zone with the steering passing through the frame, particularly so when an outside support plate is added. Also, the new method retains the outer seal bore.

BTW, when doing this modification with the original holes in the Deuce frame, it's necessary to radius the top of the new flange to fit the inside radius of the top of the frame rail so the flange fits flat against the frame. Vern's latest flanges have the correct trim and radius. Because you're starting fresh, without using the old holes, this won't be a problem for you. Just keep it in mind when you mark the hole locations.

I look forward to seeing the finished job.

[NealinCA]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent, Neal! The turn-down looks concentric with the bore. Did you use the sector shaft as a mandrel in the lathe?


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought of using the sector shaft, but I needed something with centers in both ends. I was looking around for some 1-1/8" shaft and found the splined end off of a 35-36 driveshaft. It worked out as a perfect mandrel.

I hope to get the box in the frame next week. I will post some pics when I get that far.

Neal

[Paul]

fantastic post, the best damn post in a long time.

surely destined for addition to the Tech O'Matic section,

looking forward to seeing it's completion

Paul

[zzebby]

Real cool but where can one get parts for these old boxes. Have 51 M100 and half turn of play in it. Was going to switch to a saginaw with cross steering but ?????

[av8]

The pieces in the F-1 box are identical to those in the '37-'48 passenger car box. The sector shaft in the F-100 (M-100) is larger in diameter, but everything else is the same as the passenger car pieces so you have a large parts pool from which to locate good pieces.

Before you tear into the box, however, adjust the lash in the box and check to make sure the play isn't the result of worn kingpins/bushings, worn tierod ends, and worn draglink ends -- all common soureces of excessive play in F-1.F-100 steerng.

[av8]

Before this thread disappears, I'd like to add this very simple install of an early F-100 box in a Deuce or '33-'34 frame. Vern Tardel makes and sells a wedge plate ($55 including shipping) that permits installation of the box with no modifications to it. You will have to fill the old bolt holes in the frame and drill new ones, but that's about it.

[Flat Ernie]

TECH-O-MATIC!!!

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Detonator]

Nice work Neal! When I saw your first diagrams, the wedge plate solution seemed the easiest -- especially for us mud brains that don't have a lathe or industrial-strength drill press out in the garage. Good to know that Vern offers them.

[Roadsters.com]

For those who would like to contact Vern Tardel, he doesn't do E-mail or answer the phone at the shop because he goes there to work. The way to reach him is to send him a fax at (707) 838-6065 and he'll get back to you. Mail orders may be sent to:

Vern Tardel
464 Pleasant Avenue
Santa Rosa, CA 95401

Dave
http://www.roadsters.com/

[voodoo]

Mike, are you going to make Model A flanges as well? This looks like a much simpler way to do it than the way you did it in your book. Thanks.

[av8]

I would guess that a Model A flange is a distinct possibility, although Vern hasn't said anything about offering one. I'll ask him about it when he gets back from vacation.

BTW, Vern is out of the shop until April 19, so if anyone FAXes him don't expect an answer until the 19th or later. I omitted contact information from my posts for that reason, figuring that anyone who wanted to get in touch with him would ask about it and give me an opportunity to explain. That's taken care of now, however.

[34Fordtk]

Very cool stuff but after you find out where to get parts just how hard is it to rebuild one of these boxes?? My lash screw is all the way in so it must be rebuilt.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[av8]

This should help you, 34Fordtk. It's from the steering book. Promise you'll buy one when they're available. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
______________________________________________

INSPECTION, REBUILD, AND SERVICE

With so many good, affordable donor steering boxes in circulation, it's a relatively inexpensive task to assemble a first-rate box that's as good as new. If you're impatient you can buy all-new internals but they'll cost you several hundred dollars that could be better spent somewhere else on your hot rod.

Check the lower bearing race on the worm gear for galling. This is a fairly common condition and one that creates stiff spots in the rotation of the steering wheel. The remedy is a new worm gear that can be pressed onto your old shaft.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857536.jpg

Inspect the sector gear for galling, and pray that there isn't any, because here, too, replacement is the remedy and a new sector gear and pin will set you back $60-$70. An entire new sector assembly -- gear, pin, and shaft -- are a couple hundred bucks!
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857519.jpg

Plan on parting with $30-$40 (as of this printing) for worm gear bearings, gaskets and shims, a sector shaft bushing, and a sector shaft seal to make the steering box as good as new once the modification work is finished.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857495.jpg

Before assembling the steering, clean the sector shaft to remove old seal material. Be gentle and don't scratch or abrade the seal area.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857486.jpg

Dress the front and top mounting surfaces on the box with a file to remove ridges or burrs that would prevent oil-tight sealing.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857446.jpg

Bearing end play is adjusted by shimming the lower race which protrudes slightly from the case. The end cap is installed to determine the size and number of gaskets needed.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857430.jpg

Adjustment is a cut-and-try process. Begin with three thick green gaskets between the end cover and the box. There should be a very slight drag on the steering shaft when it's turned. If there is no drag, remove one gasket and check again. If there is too much drag, add another gasket -- a thinner brown one. If you don't hit the right combination at first, be patient; you'll soon get it and then be ready to assemble the steering box.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857393.jpg

ASSEMBLY

The simple F-1 steering box almost assembles itself. Just make sure it's properly lubed and correctly adjusted.

Apply a generous coat of moly grease to the bearings, worm gear, and sector gear and upper part of the shaft. Oil the lower part of the sector shaft and install it in the case with the gear centered.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857380.jpg

Grease the lash adjuster and install it in the top of the sector body with the adjuster screw toward the front of the box. If it's reversed, the cover won't fit on the box.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857366.jpg

Apply a thin, even coat of Permatex to the mounting surface on the box, thread the cover onto the adjuster screw, and draw the cover down by turning the adjuster counter-clockwise. Screw in and tighten the cover bolts.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857347.jpg

Adjust the lash until the steering turns smoothly, with no play, throughout the full movement from lock to lock and back. Then, install the star lock on the adjuster screw and screw on the locknut to hold the star lock in place.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857317.jpg

After the mast jacket has been added, install a new rubber bushing into the upper end to support the top of the steering shaft. Use only silicone lube on the bushing; grease will harden it and cause it to squeak.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4101721/50857259.jpg

[Kevin Lee]

This will be going into Tech, but I want to see it run a little longer just in case there might be anymore good info to add. Maybe Vern has a favorite technique for shortening the steering shaft and column jacket?

[Bruce Lancaster]

A couple of additional thoughts: Several of the repro places now sell a real bearing to replace the upper bushing in the column. It seems to be sixties Ford stuff.
When rebuilding, consider the possibility of pressing the new gear onto an early Ford shaft and using the complete column assembly.
All '32-48 Ford pitman arms and many Ford and non Ford ones up into modern times will fit F-1.

[Flat Ernie]

Another quick question - is there an easy way to spot the difference between an F-1 & F-100 box when they're out of the vehicle & not side-by-side? Casting numbers perhaps?

I ask because I have what I think is an F-1 box, but I've had it for so long, I honestly don't remember! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

TIA

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

F-100 is overshot--steering shaft at top of sector gear, F-1 (see pics above) is undershot.
F-1 has fully splined pitman arm shaft with threaded end for a big nut. F-100 has only a few splines on top of shaft, no threads for arm retaining nut, and has a groove across the top of shaft. Arm is a very bulky clamp-on device with a pinch bolt arrangement to holditon.

[av8]

The diameter of the sector shaft is greater for the F-100, so the shafts are not interchangeable between F-1 and F-100. Otherwise, all other parts are, including the sector gear and pin.

The shaft can be shortened a couple of ways. You can press it out of the worm gear, cut it to length, and then press the worm gear back onto the shaft. Or, you can take a section out of the lower portion of the shaft, chamfer the ends, and weld it back together. With this method, it's recommeneded that the weld be ground flush and a sleeve slipped over the jount and welded to the shaft at each end. You might also want to drill several 1/4-inch holes along the sleeve and plug-weld the sleeve to the shaft on both sides of the splice.

You can shorten the mast jacket by simply cutting off the unwanted length at the bottom, slitting the end of the tube 1 inch, 180 degrees apart, slipping it onto the stub on the steering box, and tightening the clamp ring.

[34Fordtk]

Thanks so much AV8! Let me know where to send the $ when its ready!! To bad this is not Tech Week...this would be a SURE winner!!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mart]

Thanks Mike, excellent coverage.
Without realising it I did virtually the exact same job to adapt the Hudson steering into Old Rusty. The parts look identical, the 32 steering pitman arm fitted. Only difference is it's overshot like the F100, but similar in construction to the F1.
I spose Ford and Hudson both bought their steering assemblies from Gemmer.

Here's a shot of the box being machined in the lathe. The area that once had the flange has been turned down, it is the part sticking up in this pic. The steering mast attachment is now being reduced to fit the ford mast.
http://www.martsrods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/steering/P7240011s.JPG

Here's one with the new flange in place.
http://www.martsrods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/steering/P1010007s.JPG

Here's a link to the page with some more photo's.
Mart's hudson steering into model a page. (http://www.martsrods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/steering/orsteering.htm)

Mart.

[34Fordtk]

OHH one more DEEP question what is the best way to extend the pittman shaft for a cowl steering set up?? Just taper it back and weld a extention on while its apart http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Kevin Lee]

This is going to Tech right now before it gets mucked. I've got a couple HOT ROD articles Bruce L. sent me on extending the sector and making cowl steering. That should probably be a seperate post.