View Full Version : five point harness?
Do these harness's have to be up to date to run at an NHRA track?
the reason I am asking is, I have a set that was taken out of a dragster that I can use. A friend of mine gave them to me and they are out of date for him to use by 2 months.
FiddyFour
11-08-2006, 11:31 AM
good question... altho, im tempted to think they're gonna need to be current
I could see then having to be current in a dragster that runs in the low numbers. If our cars are going to be running in the 12-13 second range, and that seems to be what to shoot for, seatbelts in a closed car are not inspected and you can use them forever. That is the reason I brought it up here.
Mr. Mac
11-08-2006, 12:13 PM
Yep,got to be up to date. The tracks that we have run on this year such as Tulsa and Indy has tech that we had to go through. The first thing they looked at was the date on the belts. Hamb drags has no tech most of the larger tracks do. The bigger tracks also want neck collars and arm restraints to be used in a open car.
FiddyFour
11-08-2006, 01:07 PM
soooooo
in a nutshell, other than passing EXACT tech per the HA/GR rules as set forth by Ryan and the HAMB, if you arent going to run on any other track than MoKan AT the HAMB drags, you dont have to keep the belts current?
personally, i know mine will be, i wanna make damn sure i come home, even if the car dont :D
alteredpilot
11-08-2006, 01:27 PM
somebody please grab an NHRA rulebook (mine still hasn't come in) and look under the E.T. section, then go to the sub-section for the E.T. you plan on running. that will tell you about the belts.
I have a feeling Mr. Mac is right. I tried running my bucket down at my local NHRA track and could not because I had no arm restaints, had a seatbelt and that seemed to be no concern.
I told the tech guy that I thought they were crazy, I did not want to be strapped in an open car with no roll over protection!
buffaloracer
11-08-2006, 05:53 PM
1999 NHRA rulebook mandates the use of approved belts in anything that can run a 13.99 or quicker in an open top car. I'm sure the rule is tougher now.
Drewfus
11-08-2006, 06:50 PM
here in oz we have to run arm restraints, and current belts, which really isn't a big deal as the cost isn't much in the big picture (belt was about $50).
Cheers,
Drewfus
Jim Marlett
11-08-2006, 07:36 PM
From the 2006 NHRA rule book, "Three-inch driver restraint system meeting SFI Spec 16.1 mandatory...in convertibles running 13.49 or quicker, and all dune-buggy-type vehicles running 12.00 or slower. SFI 16.1 restraint system, when required, includes crotch strap and must be updated at two-year intervals from date of manufacture."
ThingyM
11-09-2006, 01:14 AM
As of today, My HAMB project hit the scrap box. I already have an 8 second car to care for and keep running, I don't need another NHRA monster. I was under the impression when I started this project that it was a build what you have and have fun. WRONG, Its just another 12.99 sec.Class car. Controlled by NHRA rules. Sorry but no thank you.
If you read the rules per Ryan, we have to have a five point harness"approved by NHRA", this is nothing new, I was trying to see if I could use the ones my buddy gave to me. I guess I can use them to see where I need to anchor them to, but can not run them.
As far as this being another NHRA class, I disagree. I do plan on running mine at my local NHRA track, but am building it to compete and have fun with other people who are into this class.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
11-09-2006, 08:02 AM
As of today, My HAMB project hit the scrap box. I already have an 8 second car to care for and keep running, I don't need another NHRA monster. I was under the impression when I started this project that it was a build what you have and have fun. WRONG, Its just another 12.99 sec.Class car. Controlled by NHRA rules. Sorry but no thank you.
Two ways to look at this if I were in your shoes....
1st; you already have a fast car so in reality, --if you are building a HA/GR car to be a fast thrill ride, I don't see where you are ever going to find the HA/GR car a thrill after stepping out of an 8 second car. Thus you might as well stop now and devote any energy spent on the HA/GR to your other ride(s).
2nd; ...if the desire is still there to own a HA/GR car, build it and then just use it as a static display car. Take it to shows and have fun with it. Everybody loves an old race car. There are guys that restore old alterds and diggers and "light them off" on fuel at home and at shows just to get their kicks --and never plan to make a pass down the track in it. IMO there is no shame in that whatsoever. If you can build the car with the mindset that later someone can do the modifications necessary to be able to make it legal if the desire ever changes, then you can build your car now with a worn out engine, trans., and etc., and just detail it like a show car would be done.
Remember, people can make say all kinds of stuff but in reality the Golden Rule applies here. The Man with the Gold, --RULES!! That means if you are the one that has got all of the gold invested in it, then you rule on how you want it built. If you decide to go play on someone else's turf, then they are the Ruler and their rules apply. I so go have fun in whatever you do!!
Godzilla
11-09-2006, 10:42 AM
As of today, My HAMB project hit the scrap box. I already have an 8 second car to care for and keep running, I don't need another NHRA monster. I was under the impression when I started this project that it was a build what you have and have fun. WRONG, Its just another 12.99 sec.Class car. Controlled by NHRA rules. Sorry but no thank you.I am sure that you have something to contribute to this HA/GR deal if you will see it thru. The majority of the opportunities that you will have to run your car will be at your local tracks. Talk with them and see what they will require you to have. You have a voice here ...voice your opinion...this can really be a fun deal so don't miss out.
ThingyM
11-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Brent: Here is my thoughts on this. No1.. Most of you guys weren't around in the 50s, maybe as tiny tots or so. But I was,RACING. Its hard to think backwards, I know. But when I look back at some of the photos that Randy has shown us, I remember those cars, Raced against a few of them. They are NOT high tech, Mega rules type cars. They were built with what you had on hand. One of my first cars chassis was built out of drive shaft tubing. Couldn't afford real new stuff. Seat belts out of an old Army trainer type plane.Maybe the seat too..Usually the steering gears were "Ross" units out of the Willys car. And also old aircraft gauges. This is what I remember building our cars out of.
No2. I'm 72 yrs old. and don't push the loud pedal on my Altered any more, I leave that up to my "Young" driver. So the HAMBster was what I was thinking about So I would have something to push the loud pedal on. But I don't want to be controlled by NHRA rulers. It was my understanding that this was going to be in the 50s style of thinking(Aka Bug) I know there has to be Safety involved. but to be controlled by the NHRA rule book, NO. Like the other guy said. I have a set of belts that came out of a dragster, Can I use them?? No was the answer. Now you tell me that a good set of seat belts are WORN OUT in 2 years of racing. I don't think so. You are strapped in for the whole sum of, Maybe 1 1/2 hrs in your car in two years.And they are no good??? come on!!
No3. We have the Antique Nats. held here in Cal. In all the years these cars have run, Never have I heard of anyone getting hurt of any sort. BUT they don't want a car that was built in your garage last week running with them, They want the real thing ONLY. End of rant. Dick.
Mr. Mac
11-09-2006, 11:51 AM
Brent: Here is my thoughts on this. No1.. Most of you guys weren't around in the 50s, maybe as tiny tots or so. But I was,RACING. Its hard to think backwards, I know. But when I look back at some of the photos that Randy has shown us, I remember those cars, Raced against a few of them. They are NOT high tech, Mega rules type cars. They were built with what you had on hand. One of my first cars chassis was built out of drive shaft tubing. Couldn't afford real new stuff. Seat belts out of an old Army trainer type plane.Maybe the seat too..Usually the steering gears were "Ross" units out of the Willys car. And also old aircraft gauges. This is what I remember building our cars out of.
No2. I'm 72 yrs old. and don't push the loud pedal on my Altered any more, I leave that up to my "Young" driver. So the HAMBster was what I was thinking about So I would have something to push the loud pedal on. But I don't want to be controlled by NHRA rulers. It was my understanding that this was going to be in the 50s style of thinking(Aka Bug) I know there has to be Safety involved. but to be controlled by the NHRA rule book, NO. Like the other guy said. I have a set of belts that came out of a dragster, Can I use them?? No was the answer. Now you tell me that a good set of seat belts are WORN OUT in 2 years of racing. I don't think so. You are strapped in for the whole sum of, Maybe 1 1/2 hrs in your car in two years.And they are no good??? come on!!
No3. We have the Antique Nats. held here in Cal. In all the years these cars have run, Never have I heard of anyone getting hurt of any sort. BUT they don't want a car that was built in your garage last week running with them, They want the real thing ONLY. End of rant. Dick.
So,at the antigue nats there is no tech? If thats so then it and the Hamb drags is where you can run and have fun.Good luck.
ThingyM
11-09-2006, 12:02 PM
Mac, If thats the case,Then they have to be held at a non NHRA sanctioned track. Correct???
Mr. Mac
11-09-2006, 12:31 PM
Mac, If thats the case,Then they have to be held at a non NHRA sanctioned track. Correct???
Sorry,What I was asking is there any kind of tech at the antique nationals and if there were not, then it and Mokan track(home of the Hamb drags)would be the place to go and have fun. I doubt if there is many tracks left in the USA that does not have some kinda tech that won't check seat belts. I agree with you,two years seems kinda soon to change belts but there's not much we can do about if we want to race. Oh! glad to hear someones older than me.:D :D
ThingyM
11-09-2006, 12:56 PM
Mac, Out here we have a class called "Open Wheel" that has to run 9.99 sec. or less.Bracket. This class has a limited tech. Like for instance No helmet bars required. Out of date belts OK if in good condition, Etc. Drivers suit in good condition.But they have to have "Up to date helmets" Also,The chassis does not have to be certed.I'm sometimes the TECH on these cars at the ANRA races. These are the guys that have families and need a low budget class to run in. Very competitive class...
2b-banjo
11-09-2006, 02:59 PM
Having to change my belts every 2 years is not gonna make me happy either, but I'm for sure not going to let the belts being NHRA certified keep me from racing. People need guide lines, this is not 1950, even though we are trying to re-create the era. Almost all the safety issues implimented is auto racing are a product of someone getting hurt. So if having certified belts make the track owner and his insurance company happy, that will be the way it will be.
Most of them weren't around in 1950 either.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
11-09-2006, 03:10 PM
Let me see if I got this straight....
At the mail-order speed shops you can get a certified set of belts for about $50.00. I also thought that you can send your belts back and get them re-certified for about half the price of a new set. A tank of gas to tow to the track is going to cost about $50.00. A battery costs $50.00. One tire for even a sub-compact is $50 these days.
An entry fee for a car and a couple of crew guys is gonna cost $50.00. Gosh, I have a wife and two kids and when we go out to eat dinner on Friday night a Texas Roadhouse, or to the BBQ place on Sunday afternoon, my bill with tip will break a $50 dollar bill. I guess I just don't see the big problem. What am I missing?
Racerb
11-09-2006, 03:43 PM
Thingy you mean old man hang in there I want to see that car run with the worlds fastest FL (?):p motor in it ASAP. Hey maybe we can run your hambster again my old altered we can start our own class.:D
Call you tonight.
Everyone have a good one
No, you can not send them back and have them re-certified.
The whole point of this is, if they have never been involved in an accident, what is the problem with using them?
Case in point, I was at the Orlando track for the World Street Nationals and saw a Nova hit the guardrail, flip and rip the body off of it. The safety team was there within seconds, they pulled the certification off of the roll bar so it could not be used again. They did not even check the harness the guy was wearing, so he "could" use it again?
I do believe it is a money thing.
I will buy a set from a local speed shop that are NHRA certified, I am not whining about the money, I just do not see the point of not being able to use a set that is perfectly good to start with.
Godzilla
11-09-2006, 08:18 PM
Most all of the major safety-belt manufacturers will re-web your belts for a fee and re-certify them. From what I have heard it is a little less than the cost of new belts...and we all know that in racing every penny saved is a penny to spend on a coke and burger at the strip.
Locally we have Stroud...who can re-web or custom build you anything you want. Dragrcr50 had Stroud build some of the coolest silver belts that I have ever seen. Simpson Race Products are in New Braunfels, Texas. If you need new webbing just give them a call at 830-625-1774. Nice folks, they will fix you up.
Yo Baby
11-09-2006, 10:57 PM
All of the Major Manufacturers will recertify THEIR OWN BELTS not someone elses.They have issues with the hardware for some reason.
Thingy M,it's not the amount of time spent sittin' strapped in with the belts that kills 'em,It is the UV rays from our freindly neighborhood sun that does it.
Nylon and sunlight are not freinds.
If you've ever been upside down especially hard or seen what happens when they break you wouldn't be frettin' over it.
Please try not take this the wrong way,buttt..... if a $50-75 recert is enough to make or break ya,you prolly didn't wanna play very bad any way.;)
I think you should finish that cool lookin' chassis and go play.
Jim Marlett
11-09-2006, 11:21 PM
The bottom line is that safety rules will be the responsibility of the track at which you are running. If they are an NHRA sanctioned track, they will enforce NHRA rules. If they are IHRA sanctioned, then it will be IHRA rules. If they are independent (like MoKan) they will have their own safety rules, but it will be the track enforcing them. If you want to race, you will have to play by someone's rules.
We may not like the rules, but I don't think I would like getting killed in a race car either.
Let me clarify who will re-certify harness's.
I called Simpson a while back and they said they would NOT re-certify their own harness. I just got off the phone with RJS racing products and they will re-certify their own cam-lock type harness, if it is the one with the black cam-lock. And we are talking major savings, $49.00 to re-certify and ship them back to you.:eek:
So if you look around at swap meets and such, you can pick these up that are out of date for $15.00-20.00. Send them in and for $70.00, you have a set that retails for $249.00.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
11-10-2006, 12:22 PM
OK just so I am "singing off the same songbook page", Speedway offers a brand new set of belts like the ones pictured below for $59. Here is what they say:
Seat Belt Combo Kits
Individual style shoulder harness. Quality nylon, double stitched for extra strength. All belts are dated and meet or surpass USAC, NASCAR, SCCA and other racing specifications.
SFI certified.
Features deluxe 3" bolt-in lap belt, single sub-belt, and a 3" individual shoulder harness. All shoulder and sub-belts can be mounted as bolt-in or wrap around. The lap belts are bolt-in style only.
Available in Red, Blue or Black.
Now, knowing what you see in these vs. any set that you might purchase at a swap meet or on eBay, WHAT are you gaining or losing by going with the unit Speedway sells?
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/2005/595501_L.jpg
I am not knocking those belts, but with the ones I have now, I am going to spend $49.00 on a set. There is probably nothing wrong with the belts that Speedway sells, but I believe that I have a better set for less money and I have "recycled" some that will not go into a landfill.
Funny thing is, my HA/GR is all recycled material, except for the frame rails.
One more thing, the one I am sending back have the camlock system on them. They are a hell of a lot easier to get in and out of, than the lever system you have pictured from Speedway.
But again, maybe you are not as fat and old as I am and it will not matter.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
11-10-2006, 04:15 PM
I am not knocking those belts, but with the ones I have now, I am going to spend $49.00 on a set. There is probably nothing wrong with the belts that Speedway sells, but I believe that I have a better set for less......
OK you said exactly what I am questioning but didn't give an answer to. What (if anything) do you think the differences are between a $60 set and a $360 set?
The biggest thing I can see would be the width of the belt. I know there was an accident in a vintage race where the lady (Olive Moore) smacked the guard rail as she was going down the track. She sustained internal injuries because the seat belt "cut into her". I don't think it physically cut into her skin but I think the point was made that if she would have had wider belts, it would have spread the load over more of her body. Again, this was strictly heresay but I have always thought about it. I would imagine she had 2" belts like you get at Auto-Zone or CSK stores.
Your thoughts.....
Yo Baby
11-10-2006, 06:25 PM
I think a good set of 3" belts from any reputable dealer is enough although I think that Stroud goes an inch or 2 further with the velcro that attaches the 2 shoulder harnesses together.
Most major racing injurys can be directly attributed to the collar bones peeling back and allowing the torso to slide between them(Shoulder harnesses) meaning at least a broken collar bone and at most a catastrophic impact with the steering wheel etc.
The diff. between a $350+ dollar set of belts and any of the others is the difference between 3 crotch straps (CCA and SCCA Racing requirements) and 1 as per NHRA ,NASCAR and most other sanctioning bodies.
I don't see any benefeit from the extra crotch belts as most life threatening or life ending injuries are due to either not having the harnesses tight enough or PEEL THROUGH as mentioned before.
Having said that I don't see either as a serious hazard in a HA/GR considering the RELATIVELY low speeds they operate at.
ThingyM
11-11-2006, 10:03 AM
Guys: It's not the lousy $60.00 for the belts. In fact one of my sponsors on my race car is a safety prod.mfg.co. (belts). What my problem is, The NHRA controling this thing.NHRA(no hot rods allowed). Again. We did not have someone telling us what we had to have (or stay home) then,Why now?? Id love to be involved in the Hamb thing. But too, I don't want to have a car that is just a show piece. I want my car to look like it came from the 50s early 60s.
Someone said something about being on your head. Friend, I used to race Sprinters and Midgets. Ive gone sky ground a couple of times. Believe me I know what its like. We didn't have cages like they do today, Or helmets like todays either.So I do know. But it didn't effect me, effect me, effect me.)))))))grin. So if I build my car like I want it, I can park it in my shop and stare at it.Gee that really sounds like fun...
Racerb
11-11-2006, 10:53 AM
Someone said something about being on your head. Friend, I used to race Sprinters and Midgets. Ive gone sky ground a couple of times. Believe me I know what its like. We didn't have cages like they do today, Or helmets like todays either.So I do know. But it didn't effectme, effect me, effect me.)))))))grin. So if I build my car like I want it, I can park it in my shop and stare at it.Gee that really sounds like fun...
So now we know what is wrong with you. I have been trying to figure it out for several years now I know.:rolleyes: Hey you can park it next to the Woody an we can both stare and dream:D :D :D
OK you said exactly what I am questioning but didn't give an answer to. What (if anything) do you think the differences are between a $60 set and a $360 set?
The biggest thing I can see would be the width of the belt. I know there was an accident in a vintage race where the lady (Olive Moore) smacked the guard rail as she was going down the track. She sustained internal injuries because the seat belt "cut into her". I don't think it physically cut into her skin but I think the point was made that if she would have had wider belts, it would have spread the load over more of her body. Again, this was strictly heresay but I have always thought about it. I would imagine she had 2" belts like you get at Auto-Zone or CSK stores.
Your thoughts.....
Brent, I thought I answered that question in the last paragraph of my post. The ones I have are 3" belts, the difference is in the connecting device. The ones you are showing are the lever type belts, the ones I have are the cam-lock type, which in my opinion are a whole lot easier to get in and out of. This may be only a matter of conveinence, but I think they are worth it.
A comment was made in an earlier post about the safety of these belts, they all have to meet a certain safety feature or they would not meet the SFI certification. At the speeds we are running, any of these belts would be alright, in my opinion.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
11-13-2006, 09:05 AM
Brent, I thought I answered that question in the last paragraph of my post.
Oh I apologize!!:o I did not understand nor interpret it that way. The cam-lock is the type that you just punch the center to release it where this type must be pulled upward. Is that correct?
I am a believer in that there is a reason why stuff costs more but I was not seeing the extra $200.0 value. Thanks again!!
The cam-lock design is made so that when you get all the belts adjusted, you turn the cam-lock to release them all at the same time. You can push them in one at a time and they will lock in also.
alteredpilot
11-14-2006, 05:38 PM
hey dick...
i know we already had this converation, but i think it really comes down to not so much the goons from glendora having theier sticky little fingers all over it, but the cars just having to meet tech.
if there were non-sanctioned tracks in so. cal we wouldnt even have this discussion, but since the only tracks within a days drive are all under the thumb, then its meet basic tech.
dont let it kill your enthusiasm.
i was feeding off you for the motivation to put that boat anchor from butch in something......
Racerb
11-14-2006, 06:19 PM
dont let it kill your enthusiasm.
i was feeding off you for the motivation to put that boat anchor from butch in something......
Hey Mitch
Boat anchor my butt one of them is a genuine WW II proven truck motor :rolleyes: and the other is a full blown:p 8000# forklift motor.:) :) :) :) now lets go racing. See you Saturday.
Butch
Ron Golden
12-24-2006, 02:57 AM
I quit running, and sold my rear engined alcohol dragster, because of the NHRA rules that required me to buy new belts every 2 years when they weren't even dirty. Thats not to mention all the other pieces that had to be replaced even if the car was never raced. Safety is important but some of the NHRA rules are dumb. I think rules are necessary, however clean, serviceable belts should be ok at the discresion of the tech guy at the track.
vBulletin® v3.8.2, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.