engine hoist design question...

[Dan]

gonna go tonight to pick up a 9' length of I beam from one of the students houses. Dont know exactly what size it is but I drove by and looks to 4"-6" wide. They were using it under there house so I believe it will be stout enough to hang an enine from. Could someone give me some ideas or tell me how they built their hoists? I have a chain hoist that I will use with it, what are those things called that roll back and forth on the I beam and where do I get them? If I make triangular bases for the ends of the beam how wide do I make the base? I want to make this stout but not spend any extra money that needed. Rather than just weld a bunch of crap to it I want to do it right from an engineering standpoint if that makes sense...Thanks

[Dan]

just did alittle quick research...
the longest engine/tranny combo I found is about 72" inches long. So, would I want to make the bases of the hoist 6-7', that way the weight wouldn't be hanging out past the base of the hoist? Is that overkill? Also, I will probably use chain to hang the chain hoist until I can find (afford) one of those "trolley" deals. How is chain rated? How do I know the strenght of it? What size tubing should I use for the base of the hoist? Thanks-

[Paul]

I'm finaly going to pick mine up today! woo hoo!!

I took it down last week and my brother dropped the trailer off yesterday!

I'm gunna try to keep it as big as possible, the footprint is 30'x30' and the space I'm puting it in is almost that big, the traveling beam and car will both be manual with an electric winch.

the traveling beam is about 6x12x28, I'm psyched!

[Paul]

Dan,
it's gunna be tough building it without buying (scrounging) more material, but here's a sketch of a design I would think should work..

Paul

[tommy]

http://fototime.com/{18E39F85-4FCB-4853-832D-A4A8012F262A}/picture.JPG
I've always refered to them as beam dollys. Mine runs perpendicular to the cars center line. I like it that way. No need to get the car perfectly centered. It's great for loading welders and heavy stuff on your pickup. When you are done, just roll it over to the wall.

[Paul]

good point Tommy,
I like yours in that there is no post in the way either.

with Dan's 9' stick he could bury one end in a wall supported by a single post and have an "A" framed opposite end to reduce material,
assuming his garage is wider then 9', or if the garage framing can support it it could be hung from the framing itself..

or if it was out in the driveway or yard it could have an "A" frame at both ends made of 4" di. 1/4" wall pipe with a horizontal brace creating the "A" and a diagonal brace up off that to the beam at the top.
kinda like a heavy duty swingset frame.

not much room for the car (dolly) in that design though..

[flt-blk]

Heavy duty swing set was my first thought too.
Have a look at McMaster Carr, they should have the trolly,
chain, and anciliary parts you need with load ratings.

I would plan for the biggest thing you might lift, like a
body off the frame and design the support around that.

Paul, what is the load rating on your gantry crane, that
looks like a pretty serious industrial one?
TZ

[Paul]

[ QUOTE ]
Paul, what is the load rating on your gantry crane, that
looks like a pretty serious industrial one?


[/ QUOTE ]

it says 1 ton on it but if I reduce it's length it should increase it's capacity,

I think though that two thousand pounds aught to be enough for a home shop http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

[Kevin Lee]

Just wanted to throw in the comment that I think your sketch rules.

[Paul]

hahaha thanks Brother Grimm!

well, I'm off to go get mine!

wish me luck! haha

Paul

[Dan]

Thanks for the input, geeting some good ideas! Tommy, how did you support your beam? I would like to do something like that but the 9' length would put a post right in the middle of the floor. Dont want to hang it from the rafters as I know that wont hold. Probably gonna go swing set style with wheels. Wish I could hang it from the roof. 60's style, I did some work once for a guy that had a setup like yours only his I beam had gantrys at each end as well as the chain hoist hanging from a gantry - great set up!

[atch]

60's design is killer.

I would suggest, though, that if you have the vertical room, that you put the one long beam on top of the two other beams. That way the posts and beams are holding EVERYTHING up without putting any strain on bolts. Even with four 1/2" grade 8 bolts (which seem plenty strong, btw; any one of them could probably hold up the gross weight you're talking about), you're still depending on these bolts to hold up the weight of engine, tranny, the long beam, chain hoist, etc. With the long beam on top the only thing the bolts are doing is keeping the beam from sliding around on the other two beams.

As far as using it, that's every individual's preference. I've got a friend who put a 24' beam sideways in his shop supported by steel posts at the exterior walls of the shop. He still uses a cherry picker 'cause you can pick the engine and then roll it around. With a beam, once the engine is out you have to move the car (if you don't keep clear floor space to the side, which is hard for some folks to do) before you can set the engine down.

If you do undersling the long beam, be sure to weld something across the ends of it to keep the trolly from rolling right out the end and dropping the load on your toes.

[tommy]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the input, geeting some good ideas! Tommy, how did you support your beam? I would like to do something like that but the 9' length would put a post right in the middle of the floor. Dont want to hang it from the rafters as I know that wont hold. Probably gonna go swing set style with wheels. Wish I could hang it from the roof. 60's style, I did some work once for a guy that had a setup like yours only his I beam had gantrys at each end as well as the chain hoist hanging from a gantry - great set up!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://fototime.com/{12A59287-6BB2-4E8A-99AA-2B51A0080B31}/picture.JPG

My beam is 24 foot long and spans the 2 bays eliminating a lolly column in the middle. There are 5 2x4s sandwiched together on each end forming wooden posts buried in the walls. The problem with an A frame stand is it takes up room and is hard to move around. When you get a price for the steel to build it, get a price for another I beam to finish the span to the other wall. Weld the 2 together. Once you have one you'll never want anything else. The chain fall stays neatly stored against the wall. Just reach up and pull it over if you need to pick up something heavy.

[Paul]

well, I just got mine,
four 12' legs and four 30' beams to create the frame and one more 30' beam to travel back and forth, now I gotta scrounge up a trolly and big ass winch to run back and forth on the traveling beam.

had to cut the five 30' beams in half, I didn't want to have to pay for a flatbed to haul them.
I will weld them back together with full pen welds and fich plates.

Paul

[Dan]

I've wondered about laminating some studs together to hold up the I-beam, might have to think about that - on another note, how does that pvc pipe hold up for the air compressor? I've been wondering about doing that to...thanks-

[tommy]

The original plans called for 3 2x10s laminated to form a beam with a post in the middle supported by the laminated studs in the walls.

The PVC has been there for 4 or 5 years. Some people will say it will explode. If you use it, blow all the glue fumes out of it really well before you pressurise it. The highly volatile glue will explode with the heat of compression. I let it bleed air for several hours. Black pipe is better. It tends to condense the moisture out of the air.

[atch]

i've always liked this idea. so much that i've bought a chain fall and the trolley. anyone know what size beam i should be looking for to span 30 feet and be able to pick up roughly 1,000 pounds at the middle?

and if i have to cut it in half like 60's did what would be the best way to weld it back together? i mean how much reinforcing/boxing/fishplating is needed?

[atch]

bttt in hopes someone can tell me what size beam i should look for.

[river1]

on using PVC DON'T

http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/KeepSafe/HazAlerts/902.asp

later jim

[Paul]

[ QUOTE ]
and if i have to cut it in half like 60's did what would be the best way to weld it back together? i mean how much reinforcing/boxing/fishplating is needed?

[/ QUOTE ]

atch,
I plan on grinding a chamfer in all edges to get a full pen weld using 7018 rod.

I will re-enforce the weld areas with 3/8" plate steel prolly about two feet long and near full height of web one side only and no added plate top or bottom.

as for loads of various steel shapes you should be able to find something on line..

my crane was rated for one ton, the beams are 30' long and about 6"x12" and the flanges on the traveling beam are about 3/8". I will get a better measurement and check my shapes book for the beam size and try to find a load list on line..

Paul

[Paul]

ok my traveling beam and the two that it travels on are all three the same size.

6-1/2" wide by 12-1/4" tall with a flange thickness of 3/8"

that makes them size W12x26 that's a nominal 12" tall beam that weighs 26 pounds per foot.

now I will try to find some load ratings..

Paul

[Paul]

atch,
I think you need to talk to an engineer http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

there are many things to consider, it's like there is nothing so simple that the more you look at it the more complex it becomes!

what size trolly do you have, what beam does it fit? 4", 6"?

[atch]

60's,

i'll have to look at the trolley tonight at home to see exactly what size beam it fits, but i do remember that it comes apart and has big stacks of washers on each bolt so that it can be adjusted to suit the width of the beam (within min/max limits, of course).

i'll try to look at the chain hoist, too, 'cause it might have a load rating on it.

[Brad54]

For some more ideas and a lot of engineer weenie technospeak, go to Hobartwelders.com forums. These guys start talking about "moment" and such--how much weight a given span of X-thick material will support in it's center before failing, blah blah blah. Good stuff to know, but I'd rather know how to blueprint valve springs.
You can also do a search on their forum for "Hoists" "cranes" or "gantries". I did one once, and those guys have some cool shit.

I'm going to build on in my shop: 11 feet long, with one post against the wall and the I-beam on a swivel like a Jib boom. The post at the other end will be on a huge caster, so the whole thing can swing out from the wall when needed, and lay flat against the wall when not in use. Chain fall and trolly will run the whole 11-feet.
Coolest I ever saw had posts in four corners like the one in the diagram, but the middle beam was on trollies so it went side-to-side, with a chain hoist on trollies hanging from the middle beam--he could pick an engine up in one corner of his shop and drop it in the far corner.
-Brad

[atch]

[ QUOTE ]
atch,

I think you need to talk to an engineer...


...what size trolly do you have, what beam does it fit? 4", 6"?

[/ QUOTE ]

fer shur on the engineer idea.

the trolley is currently set up for around 4 1/2" and could be changed to anywhere between 3 1/2 and 4 3/4, or thereabouts. my trolley and chain hoist both are labeled as rated at one ton.

now i'm really thinking hard about the beam/trolley idea. i've got two cherry pickers, but am getting more intrigued about installing the beam.

[Paul]

atch,
so a nominal 4" wide beam hmm, next I would look at headroom because the 30' span with only a four inch wide beam will more than likely be fairly tall.. especialy if you expect to have it engineered for the 1 ton capacity.

the taller it is the lighter it can be and of course the lighter it is the less it should cost..

my incomplete list of common beam shapes shows only smaller beams with 4" flanges, the heaviest is a 12x22 (that's a nominal 12" depth and a weight of 22 pounds per linial foot) prolly too light..

the next one that might be a better choice is a 14x26 but it's flange is 5" wide..

there are other posibilities too, your engineer could tell you better but you may be able to use a built up beam, like a T shaped beam welded to the top of a lighter main beam to strengthen it, or a T shaped beam welded to the bottom of a heavier beam for the trolly to run on..

Paul