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hilljack
10-04-2006, 10:44 AM
Hello everyone,

I want to build a rear engine rod. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what to couple to a small block for a driveline. If I put the motor, trans and rear end all linked together it would be about 70 " long, plus I would have no suspension travel. Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8, or is there some trick out there? How did they do it on slingshots?

I'd appreciate any imput,

thanks,

nick

Richard D
10-04-2006, 10:49 AM
Eldorado/Tornado transaxle. Turbo 400 guts. Later models were possibly O/D.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 10:57 AM
thanks richard d,

will that bolt up to a small block?

Richard D
10-04-2006, 10:59 AM
thanks richard d,
will that bolt up to a small block?
I believe so...but not sure. Try asking a transmission shop.

buschandbusch
10-04-2006, 11:00 AM
see if you can find a wrecked or parted out Pantera:

http://www.panteraclub.com/351cstock2.jpg

Big A
10-04-2006, 11:05 AM
Eldorado or Tornado

Somewhere in my pile of old magazines there's a late '60s early '70s article on building the ultimate sleeper out of a VW bug (bad word around the HAMB) with a small block in the ass. Complete with fake groceries covering the motor.

plan9
10-04-2006, 11:07 AM
any of the import mid engine cars will have the gear for what you want to do.

i dont have the link, but perhaps someone knows of the '34 p/u with a porsche engine mounted in the bed of the truck? outstanding craftsmanship.

Sutton
10-04-2006, 11:07 AM
What type of rod is this going into?

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:08 AM
Big A,

Your avatar shows an old rear engine pickup. What do they use for those?

adjustablejohnsons
10-04-2006, 11:10 AM
Hello everyone,
I want to build a rear engine rod. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what to couple to a small block for a driveline. If I put the motor, trans and rear end all linked together it would be about 70 " long, plus I would have no suspension travel. Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8, or is there some trick out there? How did they do it on slingshots?
I'd appreciate any imput,
thanks,
nick

Slingshots were not rear engined. The last thing in a slingshot was a pushbar, a parachute, and the driver's puckered up ass.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:11 AM
It's going into the bed of a 1936 ford pick up. I want the cab to be forward. I want it to have the look of a pickup for the dry lakes.

lowburban
10-04-2006, 11:12 AM
There was an Isuzu mini (I know mini's and imports are cuss words around here but the application is applicable ) years ago that was featured in alot of mags that ran a Toronado tranny and it had a smallblock in it. I would think you could find more folks that have done something similar on the internet. Good luck.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:12 AM
I know they weren't rear engined, but the engine trans and rear were pretty compact.

steevil
10-04-2006, 11:21 AM
http://www.canadianrodder.com/Spotlight/2004/bougie/bougie1.htm
http://www.fsra.org/cdnrodder/IMG_2577.jpg

Richard D
10-04-2006, 11:27 AM
see if you can find a wrecked or parted out Pantera
That would probably be ridiculously expensive!

Richard D
10-04-2006, 11:28 AM
any of the import mid engine cars will have the gear for what you want to do.

i dont have the link, but perhaps someone knows of the '34 p/u with a porsche engine mounted in the bed of the truck? outstanding craftsmanship.
Any affordable import wouldn't be able to handle the power of a V8.

buschandbusch
10-04-2006, 11:31 AM
do a search here, there's both a Tornado rear engined buggy project and a VW powered A pickup with the engine in the bed if I remember correctly


That would probably be ridiculously expensive!

that's all relative- I've seen complete good condition cars advertised under $20k, so an engine and transaxle shouldn't be too out of the ballpark, just consider what you'd have when you're done?

Beemer
10-04-2006, 11:33 AM
People have been putting SBC's in Pontiac Fieros for years. Perhaps that transaxle would work for you.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 11:36 AM
that's all relative- I've seen complete good condition cars advertised under $20k, so an engine and transaxle shouldn't be too out of the ballpark, just consider what you'd have when you're done?
They have Ford engines:mad: . He wants an SBC.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 11:37 AM
People have been putting SBC's in Pontiac Fieros for years. Perhaps that transaxle would work for you.
Forgot about those. Try a kit car website.

Frank
10-04-2006, 11:43 AM
That would probably be ridiculously expensive!

And a waste. A decent tranny ZF out of a Pantera can easily be worth much more than for an entire parts car with no tranny. I've heard $3000 - $7000 is typical.

Toronado would be the way to go.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:46 AM
been doing some th425 (toronado transaxle) research and it puts the motor directly over the wheels. I don't want to be picky but I'd like the motor to be in front of the rear wheels. What kind of transaxle did they use on the Pantera? I know Porsche transaxles are similar.

53sled
10-04-2006, 11:48 AM
Any affordable import wouldn't be able to handle the power of a V8.

really?

KY Boy
10-04-2006, 11:51 AM
been doing some th425 (toronado transaxle) research and it puts the motor directly over the wheels. I don't want to be picky but I'd like the motor to be in front of the rear wheels. What kind of transaxle did they use on the Pantera? I know Porsche transaxles are similar.

Porsche transaxles (G50) are similar and there are adapters for at least the chevy LS series engine that are used by factory five in their new supercar. http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/GTMkit.html But I think you would have 4 reverse speeds and one forward if you used it turned around with the engine in front. I think the Pantera used ZF transaxle. VERY EXPENSIVE.....

kropduster
10-04-2006, 11:51 AM
i've seen some vw powered dune buggies with the motor/trans turned around (engine in front of trans). i guess there is some way to reverse the gearbox? anywhos i have seen toyota, ranger 2.3s, sbcs, and even a few northstar caddies hooked to VW trannies. that would get you in front of the axle.....
good luck.:)

Flexicoker
10-04-2006, 11:52 AM
There was an article in Street Rodder (i think) a loooong time ago, where a guy put a sbc in the trunk of a deuce roadster. The transaxle was out of a motorhome I want to say. he made it fit. What about a Northstar out of a wrecked Caddy? It'd be transverse mounted and probably way less cool looking... but it'd be pretty easy. I bet you could pick up a unit pretty cheap from a wrecked geezer pleaser.

Or, if you have a big budget you could check out:
http://www.xtrac.com/mainindex.htm
They have a ton of transaxles and I bet one would work for you. BUT, they're made for racing and probably will be way too pricey,

loogy
10-04-2006, 11:53 AM
If your trying to keep it somewhat traditional, why not couple the motor to a early side shift tranny and then couple the tranny directly to a Halibrand-like center section. Then build your own suspension from there. Winters sells a Halibrand Championship Independant Quick Change and Speedway Engineering sells a Stock Car IRS Change Rear End. Both look mighty cool.

If your looking for a European car transaxle that will handle V8 torque, look at either the Porsche G60 (Spendy. Can be run upside down for a mid-engine or rear trans application like Factory Five does) or the Audi 014 or 016 (relatively cheap and plentyfull. Able to handle well over 400hp/tq. The other option would be a ZF trans like those out of the Pantera (not very strong and VERY expensive for what you get) or something a Mendeola MD4E transaxle but they start at $5395 and go up rapidy depending on the options. A built VW 091 transaxle with a flipped r&p will hold up to 200HP and more if your carefull not to "shock" the tranny too much.

The problem with the Toronado tranny is that it is ugly, chain drive (internaly), automatic only and places the motor in a weird position.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:57 AM
loogy, when you say an early side shift tranny, do you mean like a t10, muncie or saginaw?

hilljack
10-04-2006, 11:59 AM
I like the audi 014 or 016 suggestion. I'm shooting for the horsepower to be around 300.

dmarv
10-04-2006, 11:59 AM
The Porsche G50 transaxle can easily be used with a Chevy V8. I've seen a Porsche 911 with a new Corvette engine in it. The only problem is cost. The Porsche 915 transmission can be had at a much cheaper price than the G50 and can handle the power of a SBC. The main difference is that the G50 has a hydraulic clutch control and the 915 is mechanical with a cable. Most Porsche people prefer the G50 because it is a smoother transmission. I personally like the 915.

Dan Marvin, Owner
Exeter Auto Supply

Flexicoker
10-04-2006, 11:59 AM
Transvere mounting car be cool!

http://s2.desktopmachine.com/pics/Lambo_miura_01-1024.jpg

buschandbusch
10-04-2006, 12:01 PM
They have Ford engines:mad: . He wants an SBC.

not sure I recall him saying SBC, he said small block? There's more than one way to skin a cat. No need for angry face, jeez........ :mad:

Revhead
10-04-2006, 12:01 PM
Corvair trans.. or porsche 911 box, upside down.. lots of info on both of those cause they use them in kit cars. The corvair has all sorts of stuff bolted to it, including SBCs, Buick aluminum V8s and more. Plenty of adapter plates are stil lavailable. Look up Clarks corvair, or Kennedy engineering for adapters.

53sled
10-04-2006, 12:01 PM
Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8,
http://www.kennedyeng.com/other.htm
http://www.weismann.net/index.html

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:04 PM
not sure I recall him saying SBC, he said small block? There's more than one way to skin a cat. No need for angry face, jeez........ :mad:
You're right, he didn't specify that he wanted the best small block:D ! Just pokin' fun at the Ford guys. I'd rather have a Ford than Jap!

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:06 PM
not sure I recall him saying SBC, he said small block? There's more than one way to skin a cat. No need for angry face, jeez........ :mad:

I would use any small block. I actually have not been using sbc's because they're too common. But I do have a couple of them laying around.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:06 PM
Corvair trans.. or porsche 911 box, upside down.. lots of info on both of those cause they use them in kit cars. The corvair has all sorts of stuff bolted to it, including SBCs, Buick aluminum V8s and more. Plenty of adapter plates are stil lavailable. Look up Clarks corvair, or Kennedy engineering for adapters.
From what I've read, Corvair boxes are weak, and Porsche is big $$$. Check V8vair.com for more info. There have been some really badass V8 Corvairs built.

buschandbusch
10-04-2006, 12:07 PM
You're right, he didn't specify that he wanted the best small block:D ! Just pokin' fun at the Ford guys. I'd rather have a Ford than Jap!

OH- you meant angry face at Ford, you can always do an adapter to SBC....

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:08 PM
this is great. We're actually gettin somewhere. This would've taken me days on my own. Thanks

dmarv
10-04-2006, 12:10 PM
You could always use a more traditional setup, like on my dragster. Here is a pic. 1941 Ford sideshift tranny with a highly modified torque tube. The splines on the u joint at the transmission match the splines on the pinion coming out of the banjo rear end. The transmission mounts right up to the rear end.

Dan Marvin, Owner
Exeter Auto Supply

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:10 PM
I would use any small block. I actually have not been using sbc's because they're too common. But I do have a couple of them laying around.
Maybe you should do a detailed bio, and you'll get more applicable response. If you're a 50yr old aerospace engineer, you may have the $ and resources to use Porsche or Pantera stuff. If you're a young working stiff like I once was, well...

Gigantor
10-04-2006, 12:11 PM
I knew a dude who put a 460 in a 61 Econoline ... he ended up with a Drive shaft that basically had just enough room for the Ujoints ... crazy, but he couldn't keep the front wheels on the ground.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:13 PM
You could always use a more traditional setup, like on my dragster. Here is a pic. 1941 Ford sideshift tranny with a highly modified torque tube. The splines on the u joint at the transmission match the splines on the pinion coming out of the banjo rear end. The transmission mounts right up to the rear end.

Cool! Any more photos? Is it finished? How about some TECH posts?!?!

loogy
10-04-2006, 12:14 PM
loogy, when you say an early side shift tranny, do you mean like a t10, muncie or saginaw?

It depends on what your looking for. Length is going to be your problem so the shorter the better.

Keep in mind that the Porsche 915 transaxle has a dog leg first gear meaning that first is left and back (as opposed to left and forward like normal). Not a big issue but something to keep in mind. Also, for the money you would put into a 915, I think that the Audi transaxle is a much better unit.

Here's a couple of things that you may be interested in:

http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/Audi-915/index.asp

http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/5000/5000.asp

http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/915/915.asp

http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/Audi-shifter/Audi-Shifter.asp

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:16 PM
The transmission mounts right up to the rear end.

No suspension-fine for dragster, not so good for street. Maybe try a Corvette rear?

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:17 PM
Maybe you should do a detailed bio, and you'll get more applicable response. If you're a 50yr old aerospace engineer, you may have the $ and resources to use Porsche or Pantera stuff. If you're a young working stiff like I once was, well...

I'm a young fabricator who's old lady threw his clothes out of the house last week because this car building hair I have up my ass isn't brining home enough bacon. So, basically, a Pantera, ferrari modena or can am race car transaxles are out of the question. It's more like VW transaxle and some bailing wire.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:20 PM
I'm a young fabricator who's old lady threw his clothes out of the house last week because this car building hair I have up my ass isn't brining home enough bacon. So, basically, a Pantera, ferrari modena or can am race car transaxles are out of the question. It's more like VW transaxle and some bailing wire.
Damn, that's rough! If I ever get married, I'm gonna build a custom van just in case...'30s roadsters suck for sleeping.

KY Boy
10-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Just to widen the field a bit here's a couple places with a "few" adapters...

http://www.rodshop.com.au/transmissions.htm

USA - KENNEDY ENGINEERED PRODUCTS, (http://www.kennedyeng.com/)

KY Boy
10-04-2006, 12:23 PM
No suspension-fine for dragster, not so good for street. Maybe try a Corvette rear?

Richard, I would agree. On the cheap you could do any engine-tranny combo and a vette/jag rear but I think it would be long bed. The new vettes have the tranny-rear end combo but then were back up in price again.

On another note if you want subaru power it would be REAL easy:eek:

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:24 PM
for the money you would put into a 915, I think that the Audi transaxle is a much better unit.

Do they come in automatic? Sticks are fun, but I've got a bum left leg:(.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:24 PM
Damn, that's rough! If I ever get married, I'm gonna build a custom van just in case...'30s roadsters suck for sleeping.

She's a Drama queen.

Wesley
10-04-2006, 12:25 PM
Hello everyone,

I want to build a rear engine rod. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what to couple to a small block for a driveline. If I put the motor, trans and rear end all linked together it would be about 70 " long, plus I would have no suspension travel. Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8, or is there some trick out there? How did they do it on slingshots?

I'd appreciate any imput,

thanks,

nickBack in the dark ages (late 70s) I helped a friend put a Toronado front clip (engine, transaxle, frame with suspension) in the bed of a Chevy Luv pickup. Later he pulled the 455 olds out and used a Blown 427 Chevy. To get the Chevy bolted up to the Olds transaxle he used an adapter from TranDapt (if my memory isnt completely shot) and made his own front motor mounts. Yes it was heavy using the toronado front frame section, but it sure made the job alot easier. Of course we discarded the toronado steering box and made a bar that went from the center link to the frame to keep the rear wheels from steering the truck.

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:28 PM
To get really whacked here. If I used the Toronado setup I could make the thing 4 wheel steering. How do you figure the Ackerman on that?

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:28 PM
To get really whacked here. If I used the Toronado setup I could make the thing 4 wheel steering. How do you figure the Ackerman on that?

Just kidding, of course

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:29 PM
To get the Chevy bolted up to the Olds transaxle he used an adapter from TranDapt
Trans-Dapt is the first place I looked, they are still around but I didnt see that particular application. I dont think he wants Toronado, but it would probably be the simplest, most economical, and most available.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:30 PM
Just kidding, of course
It would make parallel parking real easy!

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:31 PM
Finally a thread with 50+ posts that's NOT about a T.V. show!

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:33 PM
Finally a thread with 50+ posts that's NOT about a T.V. show!

I didn't tell you . . . I'm building the car for a tv show buildoff. :eek:

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:35 PM
I didn't tell you . . . I'm building the car for a tv show buildoff. :eek:
Oh shit...better call it a "Rat Rod" then!

loogy
10-04-2006, 12:37 PM
Do they come in automatic? Sticks are fun, but I've got a bum left leg:(.

The Audi transaxles? Yeah, lot's of them were auto's.

Here's a shot of a Porsche G50 truned upside down. You can see how high it makes the stub axles. Something to consider if your not planning on having a super low stance. The motor and transaxle would have to be mounted super low in the chassis to ensure correct CV alignment.

http://www.colin.dalzell.com/gt40/enginetransaxle/040412-3.htm

BJR
10-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Corvair with a Crown Engineering kit. A friend of mine has one it puts the small block Chev engine in front of the transaxle, which sounds like what you want. Brian

hilljack
10-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Hey Richard D, not to get off topic but did you try Broadway title for your titles. For the last two cars I built I just went to the dmv with a bill of sale for the frame and body and they issued me a title.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:38 PM
The Audi transaxles? Yeah, lot's of them were auto's.
Are they as strong as the manuals?

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Hey Richard D, not to get off topic but did you try Broadway title for your titles. For the last two cars I built I just went to the dmv with a bill of sale for the frame and body and they issued me a title.
No I didn't try them, I'll check it out. TX DMV is different, I don't want it titled as a new vehicle, antiques here are exempt from smog checks.

KY Boy
10-04-2006, 12:44 PM
That upside down G50 looks like the ticket. I think you can pick one of these up for ~2 grand. Not sure how much the adapter costs

chuckspeed
10-04-2006, 12:51 PM
Hill -

If you're on a budget, take a look at adapting a Chrysler LH transmission to your needs. They're designed to take a longitudinal engine mount, and the centerline of the axle is about 6" behind the crank flange.

You'd have to figure out an adaptor plate to go from the smallblock bolt pattern to the LH bolt pattern, then do the same for an LH flexplate. After that - you've got to wire in an ECU for the transmission, as it's electronically controlled with its own 'brain'. finally - I think these things were rated to 250 ft-lbs of torque, so you're not gonna hang a monster motor in front of one.

LH's included the Concorde, the Intrepid, the Eagle, the LHS, and the 300C. Late model units even had a manual shift (autostick) feature.

finally - if it were my nickel, I'd opt for a Toro trans from the late 70's/early 80's, as a SBC will bolt up and the damned thing has an overdrive, to boot! I'd live with the extra 8 - 10" of setback; makes pullin' the front wheels off the ground that much easier!

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:57 PM
I'd live with the extra 8 - 10" of setback; makes pullin' the front wheels off the ground that much easier!
Wheelies are cool.

Kevin Lee
10-04-2006, 12:57 PM
All traditional: Look at Beatty's belly tanker. Swing axle made entirely from old Ford parts. Believe the axles were actually Model A torque tube/driveshafts. Could be really cool if you were willing to scrounge and wait for the right parts.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 12:58 PM
All traditional: Look at Beatty's belly tanker. Swing axle made entirely from old Ford parts. Believe the axles were actually Model A torque tube/driveshafts. Could be really cool if you were willing to scrounge and wait for the right parts.
Where can we find this info?

loogy
10-04-2006, 01:04 PM
Are they as strong as the manuals?

Te Audi turbo 5 cylinders put out some helacious power so I would assume that the auto's would be up to the task but I not 100% sure on that. I've got a friend who is an Audi tech. I'll ask him and get back to you.

Another option to think about is to use a transaxle out of a 80-82 Porsche 924 or out of a 944. The later trannys were Audi based. The benefit would be that you could use the 924/944 rear subframe as well. This gives you built-in transaxle mounts and rear trailing arms with torsion bars. Basically it's an self contained unit. You would have to adapt your engine AND bellhousing containing the clutch/pressure plate to the nose of the transaxle.

http://www.924.org/techsection/7transaxle.htm

chuckspeed
10-04-2006, 01:05 PM
Where can we find this info?

there's a Hot Rod from the mid 50's that describes the process of converting the banjo rear to a swing axle. Fairly complicated, but doable. I forget which month/year; I think I sold that mag to the HAMBurglar...

53sled
10-04-2006, 01:06 PM
Where can we find this info?
google it (http://www.petersen.org/default.cfm?DocID=1014&cat=SPEED%3A%20THE%20WORLDS%20FASTEST%20CARS%20&ExhibitID=284).

you get tons of usefull hits with "beatty belly tank*"

Richard D
10-04-2006, 01:08 PM
Another option to think about is to use a transaxle out of a 80-82 Porsche 924 or out of a 944.
Wouldn't that still be high dollar?

Frank
10-04-2006, 01:21 PM
Richard, I would agree. On the cheap you could do any engine-tranny combo and a vette/jag rear but I think it would be long bed. The new vettes have the tranny-rear end combo but then were back up in price again.

On another note if you want subaru power it would be REAL easy:eek:

Isn't the Olds Aurora like that? I know the Shelby Series-1 was based the Aurora's driveline and I seem to remember reading it used a transaxle.

loogy
10-04-2006, 01:28 PM
Wouldn't that still be high dollar?

Not really. The 924/944's were the redheaded stepchild of Porsche. Seeing how they are not all that desirable, the prices for a roach can't be that much. Look at the prices on Ebay, their cheap. Even 944's can be purchased for relatively cheap on Ebay.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 01:30 PM
Look at the prices on Ebay, their cheap. Even 944's can be purchased for relatively cheap on Ebay.
What about parts & repair costs? Likewise for Audi?

Big A
10-04-2006, 01:33 PM
Big A,

Your avatar shows an old rear engine pickup. What do they use for those?


Little Red Wagon and Back-up Pick-up ran Dodge power, 426 and 440 I think.

Here's some info on Little Red Wagon...
http://www.allpar.com/model/littleredwagon.html

The HAMB Bomb is a long way off getting the wheels in the air, but this thread is good for motivation.

loogy
10-04-2006, 01:37 PM
What about parts & repair costs? Likewise for Audi?

Being cool and different takes brains and money. If you have a little of both, you can probably get the job done.

Big A
10-04-2006, 01:39 PM
Being cool and different takes brains and money. If you have a little of both, you can probably get the job done.


Damn. That's what I was afraid of.

:D

dmarv
10-04-2006, 01:57 PM
Where can we find this info?

On the dragster I'm building, it originally had an independent rear axle built from Ford torque tubes and drive lines. Here is the only pic I have of the setup.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 01:59 PM
On the dragster I'm building, it originally had an independent rear axle built from Ford torque tubes and drive lines. Here is the only pic I have of the setup.
You should take LOTS of photos and do a build up article! Classic dragsters are awesome!

2tall2beahotrodder
10-04-2006, 02:13 PM
my buddie is building a 40 ford truck with the engine in the back. he used the sub frame off of a tarino and graphed it on to the front and center section of the 40 ford frame.. Its of centered, but works great...

the truck was built as a drag car back in the 70s. now turning into a show only . if you want pictures of how it was done.. send me a PM and ill email you some

toledobill
10-04-2006, 02:21 PM
Fieros are a dime a dozen around here, and V8 Archie has stuffed more V8s into those little firetraps than you could imagine. It seems the easiest and low-buck-est ways to go for a drive train. Try http://www.v8archie.com/

el chuco
10-04-2006, 02:42 PM
If a Corvair transaxle can be mated to a small block Chebby (kit), and a type 1 VW transaxle can be mated to a Corvair engine (flip ring and pinion), would the VW transaxle mate up to an SBC with a not-so-complicated adapter? VW transaxles are a dime a dozen and can be beefed up to handle some moderate power. Just throwing this out there.

Hackerbilt
10-04-2006, 03:27 PM
Hill -

If you're on a budget, take a look at adapting a Chrysler LH transmission to your needs. They're designed to take a longitudinal engine mount, and the centerline of the axle is about 6" behind the crank flange.

You'd have to figure out an adaptor plate to go from the smallblock bolt pattern to the LH bolt pattern, then do the same for an LH flexplate. After that - you've got to wire in an ECU for the transmission, as it's electronically controlled with its own 'brain'. finally - I think these things were rated to 250 ft-lbs of torque, so you're not gonna hang a monster motor in front of one.

LH's included the Concorde, the Intrepid, the Eagle, the LHS, and the 300C. Late model units even had a manual shift (autostick) feature.

finally - if it were my nickel, I'd opt for a Toro trans from the late 70's/early 80's, as a SBC will bolt up and the damned thing has an overdrive, to boot! I'd live with the extra 8 - 10" of setback; makes pullin' the front wheels off the ground that much easier!

I was gonna mention those...
Wonder is the rotation correct?
I believe the torque rating MIGHT be a little better than that, considering some of the bigger V6's they were behind in the classier cars, plus they were the transaxle used in the Prowler, which had a higher output engine.

Computer harness might be a problem though.
Wonder could it be bypassed and controlled simply by switches or is the activation sequence too complicated?

Poormans Paddle shift type of setup...or maybe a shifter that selects which solenoids are activated sequentially...almost like a neutral safety switch setup, but for triggering the proper valves for each gear.
Theres only so many solenoids to play with and I think they're only open or closed...

Lon
10-04-2006, 06:29 PM
There is a Hot Rod article on a mid engine V.W. Bus. He mounted the engine, trans, and rear as one unit. The combination was bolted to a sub frame that pivoted in front of the axle. The parts arent extotic one offs and the sub frame was just a rectangle made of steel tube.

Lon
10-04-2006, 06:31 PM
Oh and Aardema built a rear engine hot rod. And over head cam conversions for Chevy smallblocks. His website has some cool stuff on it. I just cant remember it right now.

mpls|cafe|racer
10-04-2006, 06:42 PM
To the thread starter: You can flop the ring gear on a VW air cooled bug to make it spin "backwards" which is what you need. Unfortunately, the bug tranny will NOT take the power of a SBC. The VW Bus tranny may be able to, but you'll be pushing it. The Porsche stuff is high buck, and is nothing but slightly reinforced air cooled VW stuff really. Avoid it.

The best bet? The Audi 5 cylinder as previously mentioned. These cars can be modified to put out well over 500hp and the stock manual transmissions take it very nicely.

What you'll need to do is mount the motor behind the cab, the tranny behind the motor, and use lack of a shaft as your drive. You should be able to put the power to the ground easily, you'll have minimal loss, and the parts can be found relatively easily to do so.

You will however have to get creative with linkages and stuff for the shifting.

I know it's a fuckin sin to praise anything that isn't 60 years old, american, and covered with rust on this site, but this is one area where you will be better off using German parts whenever you can. ;) :)

mpls|cafe|racer
10-04-2006, 06:44 PM
If a Corvair transaxle can be mated to a small block Chebby (kit), and a type 1 VW transaxle can be mated to a Corvair engine (flip ring and pinion), would the VW transaxle mate up to an SBC with a not-so-complicated adapter? VW transaxles are a dime a dozen and can be beefed up to handle some moderate power. Just throwing this out there.

The problem is that you need to give up your soul and first born child to get a VW tranny like that to take serious power without grenading.

(I am also into VW based sand rails, and that is one of the big problems we have with them air cooled engine/tranny combos.)

NITROFC
10-04-2006, 06:55 PM
Saw this 32 a few times !!!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH041.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH042.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH044.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH043.jpg

Good Wood
10-04-2006, 08:29 PM
Check out www.thunderranch.com (http://www.thunderranch.com)

sgtlethargic
10-04-2006, 08:31 PM
Saw this 32 a few times !!!



http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH044.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH043.jpg
Any idea what's up with the 'unleaded hydrogen only'?

Thanks,
Kurt

junk-junkie
10-04-2006, 08:56 PM
Has anyone suggested running the driveshaft past the axle to a v-drive and then flipping the axle so the pinion faces the "wrong" direction? It'll be a bit of a packaging problem & limit travel of course.

And my $.02, I know of a 500hp audi that holds up as long as you don't sidestep the clutch.

xderelict
10-04-2006, 09:11 PM
Does anyone know about the rear engine flathead from somewhere in the north west?I'm sorry I'm so vague on this but it seemed it was some chain driven set up. Does this jog any memories?

Matt Franklin
10-04-2006, 09:18 PM
i've seen some vw powered dune buggies with the motor/trans turned around (engine in front of trans). i guess there is some way to reverse the gearbox? anywhos i have seen toyota, ranger 2.3s, sbcs, and even a few northstar caddies hooked to VW trannies. that would get you in front of the axle.....
good luck.:)

I think they go for around $6k new.
Pretty expensive.

EDIT:
I found these by googling mendola transaxle.

The Mendola site itself:
http://www.mendeolatransaxles.com/homepage.php

This may give you some ideas for cheaper solutions, although unguarded chain drives make me nervous.
http://www.taylor-race.com/techsprt.cfm

Another:
http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135&sid=cc4235084975af7990e0b258edc06b35

And another:
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/tech-powertrain-transaxles/18018-who-wants-build-transaxle.html

Other references to search would be Bill Porterfield and Mid-Engineering.

http://members.aol.com/hrharrys/index7.html


Good luck and post pictures of your progress!

I've always wanted to do this, and look forward to seeing more rear or mid engine cars.



.

Matt Franklin
10-04-2006, 09:21 PM
From what I've read, Corvair boxes are weak, and Porsche is big $$$. Check V8vair.com for more info. There have been some really badass V8 Corvairs built.

One of our professors said he used a modified Tempest transaxle in his younger days to put a Pontiac 350 in the mid of a Corvair.

Mojo_AL
10-04-2006, 09:28 PM
I remember reading on a GT40 replica site that some Renaults had good transaxles that put the engine in front, not over them. Hard to get in the States, but also came in some Eagles (medallion?). Of course, these are manual boxes, not autos...

Good Wood
10-04-2006, 09:29 PM
Check out www.thunderranch.com.

Bugman
10-04-2006, 09:39 PM
The Pantera uses the same transaxle as the original GT40 did, bolts to a Clevland Ford, and can be had for around $2K in good condition...

Hi!
10-04-2006, 09:45 PM
I once worked on a 36 ford pickup that had a toranado setup in the rear. The problem was driving the death trap around town. With no weight over the front wheels the brakes caused the truck to slide. when you hit the gas the front end gets light. It was converted back to convetional and now drivable.

I worked on one rear engine truck that the radiator was moved back to and it had cooling issues with a hopped up motor and got a little better with a stocker. Just to point out some problems with drivers.
Motors in the rear are for race cars and volkswagons Its one of those things that seems like a good idea untill you put it on the street and try driving it.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 10:35 PM
I know it's a fuckin sin to praise anything that isn't 60 years old, american, and covered with rust on this site, but this is one area where you will be better off using German parts whenever you can. ;) :)
German ain't American, but they aint' so bad. A whole bunch of us descended from them, and they don't sell out to the highest bidder(Crapan).

Tinbender
10-04-2006, 10:51 PM
I'm going to set my motor faceing backwards and use a V drive out of a boat.(64 Falcon sedan delivery) I'm not sure if the V drive can take it, but I've got two different types. The car is still in the design and parts gathering stage, but I think it'll work.
Some of the wheel standers turn the motors backwards and run 4X4 transfercases using the front output. That's my plan B if the V drives prove too weak.

Richard D
10-04-2006, 11:15 PM
V-DRIVES CAN TAKE A SHITLOAD OF POWER! Check out an issue of Hot Boat Magazine.

socal_wrench
10-05-2006, 01:02 AM
About any V drive will handle what you can spin through it. Straight cut gears like a NP205 transfer case.Smaller the angle greater the load they will take.

JPMACHADO
10-05-2006, 05:47 AM
It's early here so this may be a crazy idea, but here it goes.

What if you coupled an affordable tranny directly between the engine and rear end like in the dragster pics? Then put the entire set up in a very narrow clip frame of its own that was allowed to rotate way upfront where it connected into the car's original frame. Then the engine, tranny, and axle could all move togeather. I saw a similar set up on a motorcycle (I think it was a "Biker Build Off" episode). I know the engine has a lot of weight to it, but maybe with it being in the front of this set up , with very limited movement being applied to it, it might work. I know this is way different, but putting an engine in the rear of car is already a problem that requires some engineering. Good luck to ya.

nobux
10-05-2006, 07:09 AM
It's early here so this may be a crazy idea, but here it goes.

What if you coupled an affordable tranny directly between the engine and rear end like in the dragster pics? Then put the entire set up in a very narrow clip frame of its own that was allowed to rotate way upfront where it connected into the car's original frame. Then the engine, tranny, and axle could all move togeather. I saw a similar set up on a motorcycle (I think it was a "Biker Build Off" episode). I know the engine has a lot of weight to it, but maybe with it being in the front of this set up , with very limited movement being applied to it, it might work. I know this is way different, but putting an engine in the rear of car is already a problem that requires some engineering. Good luck to ya.

The problem with that approach is that the unsprung weight of that set-up would be huge. Very detrimental to a good ride quality.

JPMACHADO
10-05-2006, 07:22 AM
The problem with that approach is that the unsprung weight of that set-up would be huge. Very detrimental to a good ride quality.


I'm not arguing with with you, I'm just wondering if there is some way to make this work because it would be such a cheap and easy alternative. Do you think maybe the rest of the car would just move around the engine and tranny maybe? I understand what you are saying about the weight, I just didn't know if maybe the car (without the engine) would be so light that maybe it would do the majority of adjusting. Please write back with your thoughts.

tomslik
10-05-2006, 07:27 AM
One of our professors said he used a modified Tempest transaxle in his younger days to put a Pontiac 350 in the mid of a Corvair.


seems to me a 63 tempest had a 326 as an option.....with the transaxle...

Matt Franklin
10-05-2006, 07:36 AM
seems to me a 63 tempest had a 326 as an option.....with the transaxle...

Yup, front engine, flexible sagging driveshaft and a transaxle in the rear. He rigged up an adapter between the transaxle and the 350. Years ago I happened to see spare he had left over from that ancient project. If I remember right, the tranny case looked like a powerglide.

Richard D
10-05-2006, 08:08 AM
I'm not arguing with with you, I'm just wondering if there is some way to make this work because it would be such a cheap and easy alternative. Do you think maybe the rest of the car would just move around the engine and tranny maybe? I understand what you are saying about the weight, I just didn't know if maybe the car (without the engine) would be so light that maybe it would do the majority of adjusting. Please write back with your thoughts.
You guys read my mind!

olddaddy
10-05-2006, 07:00 PM
A long time ago there was a kit for installing a sbc in the back seat of a Corvair. It turned the transaxle around facing forwards making the car a mid-engine setup. I rode in one that was downright scary it was so fast and handled so well. Unbelievably quick and rock steady in the turns. There are also lot's of kits for installing damn near any engine you can think of on a VW transaxle, and they are pretty stout when built for offroad buggies. Worth a look anyways.

sprbxr
10-05-2006, 11:07 PM
A Porsche 915 trans won't handle V8 torque for long unless it is built ($$$). THe Porsche trans you want is the Porsche 930 trans. It is a 4 speed but it was built to handle a ton of torque. To use it in a mid engine configuration you have to flip the ring gear to the other side of the diff. Most 930 trannys had a limited slip. I see them for sale all the time for $1500. The G50 is a great trans but it is alot more money ($2500-$3500) to buy and they only come with a limited slip on occasion. They are not as stout as the 930. If you want a 5 speed with as much strength as a 930 you will need to find a G50/50. These only came in 91-92 911 Turbos and 94 911 turbos. The had a variable slip diff. If I remember right it had 40% lock under accelaration and 100% lock under decel. Unfortunatly the G50/50 will run you between $4500-$5500 if you can find one. Back in 1991, the 911 turbo stickered for right around $100,000. A ton of money now but a shitload in 1991.

Justin

safariknut
10-05-2006, 11:23 PM
A long time ago there was a kit for installing a sbc in the back seat of a Corvair. It turned the transaxle around facing forwards making the car a mid-engine setup. I rode in one that was downright scary it was so fast and handled so well. Unbelievably quick and rock steady in the turns. There are also lot's of kits for installing damn near any engine you can think of on a VW transaxle, and they are pretty stout when built for offroad buggies. Worth a look anyways.
Those were manufactured by Crown Engineering(Ted Trevor)and was a great set up.I rode in one that had a modified 365hp 327 in it and that car got hammered pretty severely(Reeves Callaway built it).It used the Corvair transaxle with the Crown ring and pinion and modified Corvette halfshafts supplied by Crown.The trans was basically a T-10(wide ratio)with a different case and gave no problems whatsoever. I don't know if Crown is still in business or not.

Nick32vic
10-05-2006, 11:35 PM
Nobody mentioned Steve Grimes Blown Flatty thats chain driven?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/NIck32vic/Stuff/PICT0087.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/NIck32vic/Stuff/PICT0080.jpg

Richard D
10-06-2006, 07:56 AM
Nobody mentioned Steve Grimes Blown Flatty thats chain driven?
That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.

Matt Franklin
10-06-2006, 08:12 AM
Nobody mentioned Steve Grimes Blown Flatty thats chain driven?


Absolutely awesome! First time I've seen it. More pics? Especially build-up pics?



.

hilljack
10-06-2006, 05:37 PM
I,m back. And, I have to say that ONe of my other ideas is a chain driven speedster. Maybe there is a way that I could put both ideas together. I saw Grimes' chain driven flattie in a mag and it's awesome. THe only thing about it is it's not meant to be DRIVEN HARD. You know this by seeing the steering set up that puts the wheel under the dash. I think Grimes himself even said it in the article. Beautiful car none the less.

Let's morph this whole thing into a rear engined chain driven beast to get even scarier. And let's have the chains driving on the outside of the body work for all to see. It's my understanding that the Toronado setup mentioned earlier in this thread uses a chain off the flywheel to drive the transaxle. So I guess that the chain could handle the torque produced. You just don't want the chain to be behind you when it breaks and you have to control the chain slap somehow.

Matt Franklin
10-07-2006, 12:12 AM
There was a cool 1/24 scale model back in the 60s called the Beer Wagon. It was based on the styling of a Mack AC (or was it AP?).

Many of those trucks had EXTERNAL CHAINS driving the rear wheels. You can see the models on eBay occasionally.

EDIT: Aha! Here's a link:
http://www.tomdaniel.com/85_kits/85_kits_pages/beer_wagon.html

ANOTHER EDIT:
Here's a pretty cool book showing some of the Mack chain drives...


Unfortunately this pic doesn't show the chain drive as clearly as you'd like.


--Matt

.

loogy
10-07-2006, 09:42 AM
...
http://www.oldmacks.com/283_2.JPG

JPMACHADO
10-07-2006, 10:00 AM
Why not go nuts and put the engine in the front, only backwards and let the chain drive run the entire length of the car?

flatblackindustries
10-07-2006, 11:39 AM
Porsche 928 transaxles are popular conversions with an adapter plate. I have seen them used on everything from SBC to flathead Fords.

loogy
10-07-2006, 11:51 AM
The problem with a 928 transaxle is that it is REALLY long. It comes in both auto and manual though and your right, it will stand up to a large amount of power. A good used automatic can be had for about $1000.

http://www.mailordercentral.com/928intl/images/922300003.JPG
http://www.mailordercentral.com/928intl/images/AUTOTRANS4.JPG

Hackerbilt
10-07-2006, 12:15 PM
Can't find the site anymore, but remember seeing V8 powered hillclimb dune buggys with a chain final drive to each wheel hidden in the custom made extra long swing arms!
The drive shafts from the transaxle entered the swing arms about half way back and then the chain drives (fully inclosed inside the arms for safety) took over to power the wheels at the very end.

Loads of ground clearance was the goal but the things were awesome to watch in video.
Everyone else had a job getting up the slick muddy hill, those guys went up the hill about 40 Mph, went up the near vertical rockface (30ish feet!) that marked the end of the "hill" and on into the woods beyond the wall.
Chain drive can work. WELL.

hilljack
10-08-2006, 12:31 AM
...
http://www.oldmacks.com/283_2.JPG

SICK I love it.

hilljack
10-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Why not go nuts and put the engine in the front, only backwards and let the chain drive run the entire length of the car?

My original chain drive idea was for a speedster. I want a 1.5 seater that's fairly slammed. I don't want a driveline going through the cockpit. I saw some old british speedsters that has chain drive and, eureka, the birth of a sick idea. A chain running the length of the car on the outside. Screw all you chopper guys with open belt primaries, I got open chain drive on my speedster.

hilljack
10-08-2006, 12:52 AM
Well . . . back down to earth for a minute.

I sold my latest car to a guy in New york and he had an enclosed hauler pick it up. What was in the hauler was unreal. A $200,000 shelby gt 350 complete with carroll's signature on the visor. The guy even had ME drive the car off the hauler, unreal. But, that car was chump change. There was a 2 million dollar Maserati 450s sitting there under my car. One of only eleven ever made. What an inspirational automobile.

Anyway, the Maserati has a transaxle in rear with what's called a De Dion axle. Invented by Count De Dion in the 1900's. It uses a tube running parallell to the differential and the tube carries the hubs for the rear end. You hook up 2 trailing arms and a panhard bar, etc. just like any rear. No need for a arms. The maserati used this with a tranverse leaf and friction shocks. And, it won Le Mans with it. So, I use a diff. that's independent and I hook the motor, trans and diff. in line and use the De Dion setup. The fact that it's so long would be cool because I could let the diff, with the De Dion setup hang out the back of the bed exposed like the modifieds do.

hilljack
10-08-2006, 12:55 AM
Besides a vette differential, what's a good differential that's irs, and not exotic.

Mojo
10-08-2006, 01:38 AM
Besides a vette differential, what's a good differential that's irs, and not exotic.

Probably corvette? Don't forget about 4wd trucks with independent front suspension, they have little diffs up front that should be able to handle some ok power. You can probably get them in a lot of different ratios too. 4WD S-10's are all over the place.

Can't believe I missed this thread the first time around. I love mid-engined cars, i'm pretty much obsessed with them. I was going to build a chevy truck with a Eldo 500/TH425, and BMW 535i rear trailing arms and crossmember. Very simple layout, light weight too. Stout arms, the hubs were 58" apart, and they had strong CV joints. Was going to have axles cut to fit, about $200 a pair if I remember right. Never had the money to make it happen.

In reply to previous post... if you go eldo/toro, those use buick olds pontiac bellhousing patterns. You'll have to have an adapter for chevy. I remember seeing a 88? Ford Fiesta in Hot Rod magazine with a 425 transaxle in the rear, vette suspension, cut axles. He had a trans-adapter made that moved the SBC motor forward 4". Worked out really well as far as spacing goes. If it was me, i'd grab a rotted later corvair. Use the rear suspension and transaxle... rotate the trans around, flip the ring gear (Crown made a kit), and take it easy on it. Those transaxles were GM stuff, the early autos were powerglides, the 4-speeds were muncie. The weak spot was the diff. Just don't hammer down all the time, it would be fine.

loogy
10-08-2006, 10:13 AM
Besides a vette differential, what's a good differential that's irs, and not exotic.

BMW, Datsun 510 and Z cars, Subaru, Audi Quattro's , Mercedes, VW 4Motion's, AWD Volvo's, Jaguar, Mitsubishi Evo, Mazda RX7, Late model Lincoln Mark whatever, Late model Ford Thunderbird, Mustang Explorer, Expedition with irs rears, Lexus, Infinity, and on and on and on.

The late Ford irs diffs are based on the popular 8.8 solid axles so parts plentifull and relatively cheap.

cornfieldrodder
10-08-2006, 11:35 AM
The manufacturer's name is lost, but there is an adapter to put an SBC to a Subaru transaxle. The trans is factory mounted with the engine in front of the trans. manual or auto versions are available. The units for 6 cylinders should be up to the job.
I saw the article that mentioned the adapter kit in a kit car magazine around 90-94. It may have been an old issue then.
It would even work for the front engine/chain drive idea. The front sprockets could be driven off of the axle shafts, going through the frame forward of the cowl. Then some looooong ass chains could slop grease all over the side the frame and body giving a pre-war british look to the car.
Just an idea.

Bugman
10-08-2006, 11:46 AM
BMW, Datsun 510 and Z cars, Subaru, Audi Quattro's , Mercedes, VW 4Motion's, AWD Volvo's, Jaguar, Mitsubishi Evo, Mazda RX7, Late model Lincoln Mark whatever, Late model Ford Thunderbird, Mustang Explorer, Expedition with irs rears, Lexus, Infinity, and on and on and on.

The late Ford irs diffs are based on the popular 8.8 solid axles so parts plentifull and relatively cheap.
Don't forget the late Couger. same chassis as the Thunderbird, but usually cheaper. The Viper is IRS too.

xtralow 60
10-08-2006, 08:21 PM
I have a good tranny that just came out of a '73 caddy that had a 500" motor in front of it. It all worked. I bought the car for the motor. I would be willing to part with the tranny if you're interested. The car was a front wheel drive but the motor was still mounted in the car just like a rear wheel drive.

Devin
10-08-2006, 09:13 PM
i've seen some vw powered dune buggies with the motor/trans turned around (engine in front of trans). i guess there is some way to reverse the gearbox? anywhos i have seen toyota, ranger 2.3s, sbcs, and even a few northstar caddies hooked to VW trannies. that would get you in front of the axle.....
good luck.:)

yeah, you flip the ring gear.

Hackerbilt
10-08-2006, 09:58 PM
Probably corvette? Don't forget about 4wd trucks with independent front suspension, they have little diffs up front that should be able to handle some ok power. You can probably get them in a lot of different ratios too. 4WD S-10's are all over the place.

The problem with most 4x4 IFS units would be that they are offset to the left side. 80's Nissan I believe WERE center mounted.
Would the crown gear be rotating correctly if turned around as a rear axle? Would the gear be driving on the coast side, thus having less durability?
(It's already a little marginal for strength due to its front usage where it normally only sees 50% of the torque due to the rear being the primary drive and the front being the additional drive unit. Thats how the OEM's get away with the small aluminium carriers.)


If it was me, i'd grab a rotted later corvair. Use the rear suspension and transaxle... rotate the trans around, flip the ring gear (Crown made a kit), and take it easy on it. Those transaxles were GM stuff, the early autos were powerglides, the 4-speeds were muncie. The weak spot was the diff. Just don't hammer down all the time, it would be fine.

Corvairs were reverse rotation engines IIRC, so flipping the crown gear wouldn't be necessary once you turn the transaxle around for V8 use. (Not sure if its even possible on a Vair anyway.)
4 pinion diffs were available to strengthen that problem area...not sure if they're still made.

Kelmarks V8 kit had a special shaft and bellhousing that bolted to the back of the transaxle without turning it around! Weird but it worked!!!! Look it up if you don't believe!

As for the Vair automatic...the V8 would be rotating the wrong way to allow the trans pump to pressurize, so I think thats out too...

Dirk35
10-09-2006, 05:11 AM
Id love to see a well done mid engine 36 PU.

Oh yeah,try looking up Tractor Pullers. They usually use direct links or a really short drive shaft to a tranny and you basically straddle the tranny when youy sit on it. We used to pull Small Tractors but have gotten out of it.

jakespeed63
10-09-2006, 06:15 AM
BOP (Buick Olds Pontiac) transmissions do not bolt up to SBC, except for some 80's 200r4's?? had a dual bolt pattern. Why do you need to run a SBC? Why not do an Olds Toronado complete drivetrain? Also the 79 era Cadillac 425's where pretty good motors. More and more speed parts available for these engines. How are you planning to engineer the rear suspension and drivline?
Good luck with the project, love to see people thinking outside the box...er engine bay!
Also, It justed dawned on me that a Chevy Corvair, which is RWD, has a SBC boltpattern?? Check with someone like Clark's Corvair parts for a conversion kit for SBC into Corvair. These 4 speeds can be ungraded to handle a fair amount of power. Hell, just put a complete Corvair engine and trans in your project, this way you will not have to woory about a radiator. Dare to be different.:cool:
JT

jakespeed63
10-09-2006, 06:25 AM
DUH! Didn't realize this thread had so many pages! Terrific group of idea's though. Is there any Hot-Rod project HAMB'rs can't build?:cool:
JT

48fordnut
10-09-2006, 06:30 AM
I have a chevy v/8 to corvair adapter. that might work. :)

mustangsix
10-09-2006, 07:31 AM
The later Dodge/Chrysler cab-forward front-wheel-drive cars had a transaxle the mounted the engine north=south ahead of the wheels. I think they used the same transmission moved to the rear to build the Prowler, but that would give you an automatic with a good layout for a midengine car. I'm not too sure how reliable they are, though.

For a more compact arrangement, there are adapters that allow a V8 to be mounted east=west to a GM transaxle, or you could even pull a Caddy Northstar powertrain. It's a compact package and could be made into a mid or rear engine configuration.

kustombuilder
10-09-2006, 07:55 AM
G-50 Porche transaxle from 87-98 two-wheel-drive 911s. you can use that for a mid engine application and they do have adapters to fit SBCs. if you want a 6th gear and an even beefier transaxle go with the G96 transaxle from a GT3 Porche.

kustombuilder
10-09-2006, 07:57 AM
there is a guy localy with a Chevette running a 455 Olds motor and Toronado transaxle in the rear. they windened the quarters to fit over the giant rear tires and wide ass transaxle. it's kinda neat in a hokey sorta way.

Richard D
10-11-2006, 03:14 PM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136401

Blair
10-11-2006, 03:28 PM
I scanned through all of the posts and it doesn't look like anyone said anything about using a Hewland LG box.

There are a few different versions of hewland transaxles and they actually can be had for a reasonable (2-3K) price. They are built to go behind a small/big chevy or ford. The new version runs 6-8K I think, but its been a while since I looked.

The 915 porsche box (as mentioned) really won't handle the torque and they are spendy (1500 for a core) for what you get. There really aren't any cheap transaxles out there that will handle the power of a V-8.

metalshapes
10-15-2006, 01:47 PM
CanAm Racecar builder Bob mc Kee built his own Transaxle using an early Ford Diff, Quickchange gears, and a T10 Tranny.

nexxussian
05-11-2007, 06:20 AM
I saw pictures of the McKee transaxle, it appeared to be well sorted. He sandwiched a Super T10 between the diff and the cogs of a quick change (Ford, Halibrand, Winters, ???). It had a jack shaft from the quick change cogs back to the pinnion. He had rolled the trans over to where the shift arms were just to the right of center on the top to make room for the pinion jack shaft underneath the trans. It had a cable (Morse or similar) to each shift arm so there was less slop than a normal cable shifter. It must have been tough, he built it for a 426 Chrysler Hemi powered CanAM car.

As for the cheapest V8 transaxle combo it has to be the TH425. You can get the engine, trans and suspension out of the Eldorado or the Toronado and I'm surprised no one mentioned these were used in the FWD motorhome GM used to build. Those had a 454 I believe. I have seen Eldo and Toro hulks go for $200 complete (well one had been wrapped around a tree and the other was rust bucket) I even saw a burned out motorhome go for $25 at a local salvage auction(the miniumum bid for the day).

I saw a Corvair with a Blown (671?) 350 in the middle with a hommade torque tube / shaft to a TH425 at the Spokane Goodguys in '06. I believe the sunvisor said Porche Killer. Regardless the TH425 is bomb proof, if ugly and heavy.

I would use it all (eng, trans, suspension), but I would probably put it in a '48 ish COE truck (a buddy has one he is trying to sell). Go like hell and not bake you out of the cab on a hot day. Probably take a radiator out of a city bus to cool it under the bed like that though.

That's my $.02

spark
05-11-2007, 09:04 AM
i've seen some vw powered dune buggies with the motor/trans turned around (engine in front of trans). i guess there is some way to reverse the gearbox? anywhos i have seen toyota, ranger 2.3s, sbcs, and even a few northstar caddies hooked to VW trannies. that would get you in front of the axle.....
good luck.:)

Reverse the crown wheel and pinion

Dreddybear
05-11-2007, 10:22 AM
928's had transaxles and can be had for cheap. They were v8's. Someone actually gave me one once just to get it off his property, I got it running and did burnouts for a week before it broke a timing belt and I parted it. I got 200$ for the tranny. Should be easy to adapt.

Gas Huffer
05-11-2007, 10:35 AM
Not sure if it's the same set-up others have talked about (never built a Porsche), but what about pulling a 914 apart. There are 914s out there everywhere running sbc, so I would imagine that they have proven themselves capable of handling the power, plus you can buy a running 914 CHEAP. Once again, sorry if I'm being repetative...

Goztrider
05-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Chuck's speed mentioned earlier about the Chrysler LH transaxle possibility of being used. The 3.5L motors in these cars generated 214-221hp, and around 250ftlb of torque, and they even slightly resemble a Hemi.

In the future - probably the far future - I've been contemplating using one of these motors and transaxles, complete with the K-frame to add to the back of a RPU type truck, and house the motor and trans in the bed. These cars have what feels like a massive amount of power, and when you shave off roughly 2500 pounds of 4 door car and drop down into a lightweight pickup body like the RPU, it should be sick as hell to drive.

Anyhow, that's how my warped mind works. Not to mention, in the big assed car the thing got 22-28 MPG! Think what it'll do in a car that weighs next to nothing!

1gearhead
05-11-2007, 11:13 AM
The ZF trans axle assembly out of a Pantera is probably the best unit out there for what you are thinking of doing, but are incredibly expensive $$$$$$. You can beef up a VW trans axle to handle about 400HP. Look in some of the Dunebuggy mags for sources. A Porsche trans axle also works, stronger than the VW, but also stronger. I have done three of these setups, one with a corvair trans with Crown conversion kit, basically unsatisfactory. The next with the ZF 5-Speed, worked out very well. The third was with a beefed up VW trans axle and it also worked well. Shift linkage will be a challenge to work out to make it smooth and positive. Good Luck!

JohnnyFast
05-11-2007, 11:16 AM
This setup measures 40" from the back of the SBC block to the centerline of the Jag rear axles. It could be even shorter if you went with a "shorty" Powerglide. The adaptor was a simple item to fabricate. The photos were taken before the holes were drilled....thus the ViceGrips. :)

That's a stock length 350 Turbo between the engine and the Jag pig.

metalshapes
05-11-2007, 12:58 PM
I saw pictures of the McKee transaxle, it appeared to be well sorted. He sandwiched a Super T10 between the diff and the cogs of a quick change (Ford, Halibrand, Winters, ???). It had a jack shaft from the quick change cogs back to the pinnion. He had rolled the trans over to where the shift arms were just to the right of center on the top to make room for the pinion jack shaft underneath the trans. It had a cable (Morse or similar) to each shift arm so there was less slop than a normal cable shifter. It must have been tough, he built it for a 426 Chrysler Hemi powered CanAM car.


Pics of the McKee transaxle...

tjm73
05-11-2007, 01:53 PM
I read someplace once that the Audi 016 are supposedly good to around 400-450hp. Can't remember where I read it though.

porknbeaner
05-11-2007, 02:48 PM
thanks richard d,

will that bolt up to a small block?

The ultra late model ( '90s?) would bolt up to an SBC but the earlier won't they have the same bolt pattern as buick olds and pontiac.

metalshapes
05-11-2007, 02:52 PM
yeah, you flip the ring gear.

Like this?


Edit.

Scary pic, but I dont think he got hurt....

Cris
05-11-2007, 03:20 PM
Pics of the McKee transaxle...

Wow...I have a photo of that car on my bathroom wall...

http://www.auto-grafik.com/postedimages/phoenix.jpg

knotheads
05-11-2007, 03:29 PM
thanks richard d,

will that bolt up to a small block?
you will need a chevy to b-c-o-p trans adapter plate

sanmartin72
05-11-2007, 03:42 PM
Hello everyone,

I want to build a rear engine rod. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what to couple to a small block for a driveline. If I put the motor, trans and rear end all linked together it would be about 70 " long, plus I would have no suspension travel. Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8, or is there some trick out there? How did they do it on slingshots?

I'd appreciate any imput,

thanks,

nick
use a 66 or later corvair 4-speed transaxle, all the parts you will need are available. This comes from a friend named Rusty who was in the OLD SPEED SPORT CREW out of Tucson.

papabear4208
05-27-2007, 11:14 PM
i am parting a 69 toronado with a great low mileage front wheel tranny (th425) and great condition cv's, iknow a lot of people use these for dunebuggys, i am a hot rodder myself so this doesnt interest me, i believe this is what your looking for, if your interested in buying the front end for your project let me know, my e-mail is papabear4208@yahoo.com

twofosho
05-28-2007, 04:04 AM
I thought the first Mckee Transaxle (T10) actually ran one of the shafts through the countergear with the countergear bearings riding on it.
If you're trying to do this on the cheap, find an old V drive boat setup as mentioned above. With motor and trans turned 180, the rotational senses would be correct, and you could run the trans yoke u-jointed directly to the V drive. With the drive axle behind the motor-trans, the driveline adaptation should be simple and straight forward and long enough as to not get into weird ujoint angles. It would also negate the need for independent rear suspension.

Phil1934
05-28-2007, 04:12 AM
How about a real short 3 speed like early Ford van?

drhotrodmd
05-28-2007, 05:55 AM
My buddy used a V drive in this. It has a blown 427 with a 4 speed hooked to it.


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gemcityrenegade
06-11-2007, 05:50 PM
I'd just run the drive train backwards. To get the drive shaft to go to a rear axle, Use a tranfercase style drive to shoot the drive shaft back to the rear end. I saw a sweet old hot rod quickchange looking drive on a vintage jet boat. That I think did the same kind of thing but to a prop instead of a rear end. Or you could just pick a tranfercase. I would use a Dana 300. It's small, strong and gear driven. There is more gear change options as well with this setup.

As far a the axle spinning in the wrong direction. You could look in to a reverse cut high pinion axle (R HP Dana 60)and see about fitting standard cut gears while running the housing upsidedown. So it will be spinning in the right direction. Then having the standard cut gears in would allow the load side of the ring & pinion teeth to be in the right place while moving forward. Also that because the high pinion style housing would be upsidedown, It would now be a low pinion style housing. Just make sure that any of the bearings (pinion) don't get starved. I am sure Currie, Dynatrac or any of the expensive axle shops would love to take that project on. It would be alot of money but so would building a cool rear or mid-engined hot rod for the flats.

VonMoldy
06-12-2007, 12:17 AM
why not use a transfer case

HotRodHeb
06-12-2007, 12:42 AM
i dont have the link, but perhaps someone knows of the '34 p/u with a porsche engine mounted in the bed of the truck? outstanding craftsmanship.
Yeah, I know all about this truck. It is being built by a good friend of mine and his son.

It is nearing completion and may be at the next Goodguys event in Pleasanton.


And yes, the craftsmanship is definately top notch!

4t64rd
06-12-2007, 07:09 AM
The problem with most 4x4 IFS units would be that they are offset to the left side. 80's Nissan I believe WERE center mounted.
Would the crown gear be rotating correctly if turned around as a rear axle? Would the gear be driving on the coast side, thus having less durability?
(It's already a little marginal for strength due to its front usage where it normally only sees 50% of the torque due to the rear being the primary drive and the front being the additional drive unit. Thats how the OEM's get away with the small aluminium carriers.)



Corvairs were reverse rotation engines IIRC, so flipping the crown gear wouldn't be necessary once you turn the transaxle around for V8 use. (Not sure if its even possible on a Vair anyway.)
4 pinion diffs were available to strengthen that problem area...not sure if they're still made.

Kelmarks V8 kit had a special shaft and bellhousing that bolted to the back of the transaxle without turning it around! Weird but it worked!!!! Look it up if you don't believe!

As for the Vair automatic...the V8 would be rotating the wrong way to allow the trans pump to pressurize, so I think thats out too...

Most of the Corv8 kits are still being made, and the post 66 Corvair 4 speeds can handle a mild small block. Clark's Corvair's sells the Otto kits.

http://www.corvair.com/gfx/otto-33.jpg

Eldorado... What could be better than Caddy power?

Michigander
06-12-2007, 08:58 AM
Those were manufactured by Crown Engineering(Ted Trevor)and was a great set up.I rode in one that had a modified 365hp 327 in it and that car got hammered pretty severely(Reeves Callaway built it).It used the Corvair transaxle with the Crown ring and pinion and modified Corvette halfshafts supplied by Crown.The trans was basically a T-10(wide ratio)with a different case and gave no problems whatsoever. I don't know if Crown is still in business or not.

The early Corvair 4 spd is a GM design, and can take maybe 250 fl-lb. The later 4 spd is a Saginaw that's not much better. Adapters are now available to fit a T-5 O/D trans, but it's not cheap. Corvair differentials also need 4 pinion carriers to hold V8 torque. In the end you have $2-$3K in a reliable transaxle that can handle 300+ ft-lbs. Not cheap!

Steve

SinisterCustom
06-12-2007, 09:41 AM
If ya want a STRONG trans for mid or rear engine......MENDEOLA.

drhotrodmd
06-24-2007, 02:21 AM
Mark is just using a 4 speed in his which works fine.


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roadracer
06-24-2007, 07:31 AM
I used a Renault Alpine transaxle in my GT40 replica. Handles up to 500hp, I never had a problem. Definately go over to the kitcar sites/mags and call up GT40 manufacturers. PM me if you have any more questions about this or want pics, I'll try and dig some up. The tricky part is the shifter - I iused the same system in the Lotus Esprit, i.e. twin cables running back to the transaxle. That had to kept aligned perfectly or you'll start missing gears...

brandon
06-24-2007, 08:48 AM
did you check in the for sale section .....theres a rear engine stude for sale.....a couple cool pics in the ad.....brandon:D

Unclee
06-24-2007, 09:08 AM
One of our professors said he used a modified Tempest transaxle in his younger days to put a Pontiac 350 in the mid of a Corvair.

Tempest and Corvair shared most drive train parts, but Tempest was front engined and used a flex shaft going back to the transaxle.

By the time GM upgraded the Corvair suspension the Pontiac had morphed into a Chevelle cloan. The later Corvair box was a Muncie M20 with a weak ass input shaft facing rear. The Crown Manufacturing adapter(Ted Trevors, Costa Mesa Ca., I believe) ran a strong input shaft past the ring gear to reach the back of the transaxle. The worst thing about using this set-up would be, in addition to availability, the shifter. Everyone I ever saw or read about had to be shifted carefully as they did'nt take the time to build something strong enough to take abuse.

As a side note; Trevors ran his mule at Piles Peak one year and won 3 classes with 3 different motors, then a magazine street tested it with the 427 in it, which was the last class he ran. They said that coming out of the hole, foot flat to the floor, it had limited tire slip for about a 1/2 car length, then it was gone! Musta had geat 60 foot times!

daveheld
10-03-2007, 07:26 PM
I have a little experience with mid engine applications - mostly in the Fiero / kitcar world, but I hope this summary will address the issues raised in this thread... some of the info has been covered before, but here goes.

Toronado trans- will handle any amount of torque produced... but very, very heavy... and that weight is mostly behind the axle - which is not optimal for handling.

Chrysler trans - so far I have not seen an application where this trans works with anything other than the chrysler engine ( with matching VIN ). The engine computer, body computer ( the one that is inside of the car and lets you know the door is ajar ), transmission computer all must be from the same car and all must be wired to keep from activating the ShutDown Relay. This is an anti-theft device.

By the way, I'm working with a company to get an aftermarket computer / wiring harness to eliminate the 100 lbs of wiring that is necessary to make this engine / trans work in a custom application.

Porsche 914 trans - Renegade hybrids re-gears these transaxles to allow them to work with a low torque V8 engine. It will likely accommodate a V6 as well.

Porsche 915 trans- getting increasingly scarce and the case must be machined to flip the ring gear for mid-engine applications.

Porsche 930 - excellent, but after flipping the ring gear and changing the ratios, you're looking at about $7k

G50 - Will definitely handle a V8, but you must run it upside down for mid-engine. This puts this V8 engine's oil pan REALLY close to the ground.

Audi 5000 - good choice all around. Can handle high RPM torque, but may not handle the low-end torque. The audi 5000 turbo engines put out plenty of HP, and this trans can handle it, but that HP comes at higher RPMs. This trans is also better suited for light weight cars.

Hewland - big bucks, and unlike those transaxles mentioned above, the distance from the bellhousing to the axle centerline is about 10 - 12 inches ( I think ).

Porsche 928 - good all around... available in auto and stick. Adapter plates available to mount a V8 to the trans - without the torque tube, but the distance from the bellhousing to the axle center line is about 15 inches.

New Vette - If only GM put the gearbox behind the differential this would be my dream come true... but alas, the location of the gears puts the axle centerline about 15 or more inches from the bell housing.

VW trans - not a chance with a V8, but plenty of vw variants are available to handle the torque. Pick up a copy of Sand Sports magazine for a collection of available options.

Mendeola - about $15k and can handle any engine. I have no first-hand experience with them. No dimensional info.

Quaife - sequential gear shifting, high torque capacity, very nice... also about $15k

Transverse engine / trans - V8 archie popularized the use of sbc's in fieros. The trans of choice is a getrag ( available in some Fieros ) and the Isuzu trans ( the other available trans in a Fiero ) is not that bad either.

Anything with a northstar transverse is capable of moving a big, heavy Caddy around with no problem, but the wiring harness for the NorthStar engine and associated trans may be an issue for some.

Pre-NorthStar Caddy - Known to most as the 4.9L v8... this engine was the precurser to the NorthStar. Much easier wiring harness. Only mated to an auto trans... again, the trans can handle this engine.

that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head. Hopefully this info is helpful. I don't want to come off as a know it all... rather I'm submitting this information to generate some discussion. I'm open to any comments, suggestions, etc... If you would like to hear more, drop me a line.

dave@team321.com
Cocoa Beach FL

hemisteve
10-03-2007, 08:08 PM
How about a 2 speed Halibrand rear from a Shrike Indy car? Setup as independent with adapter for a smallblock already there. I know where one is and it's reasonable $$ wise - plus you can part out the rest of the Shrike - would be worth some big $$ - maybe offset some of your costs.

Steve

Jalopy Joker
10-03-2007, 08:29 PM
Will be watching this thread closely. A guy I know got a old jet plane fuel tank that he is going to build for El Mirage/Salts. Needs to be rear engine, tank only 11' long. Likely will use a 4cyl motor, but still needs to figure things out like you as far as a trans/rear end. Have Fun.

metalshapes
10-03-2007, 10:17 PM
I have a little experience with mid engine applications - mostly in the Fiero / kitcar world, but I hope this summary will address the issues raised in this thread... some of the info has been covered before, but here goes.

Toronado trans- will handle any amount of torque produced... but very, very heavy... and that weight is mostly behind the axle - which is not optimal for handling.

Chrysler trans - so far I have not seen an application where this trans works with anything other than the chrysler engine ( with matching VIN ). The engine computer, body computer ( the one that is inside of the car and lets you know the door is ajar ), transmission computer all must be from the same car and all must be wired to keep from activating the ShutDown Relay. This is an anti-theft device.

By the way, I'm working with a company to get an aftermarket computer / wiring harness to eliminate the 100 lbs of wiring that is necessary to make this engine / trans work in a custom application.

Porsche 914 trans - Renegade hybrids re-gears these transaxles to allow them to work with a low torque V8 engine. It will likely accommodate a V6 as well.

Porsche 915 trans- getting increasingly scarce and the case must be machined to flip the ring gear for mid-engine applications.

Porsche 930 - excellent, but after flipping the ring gear and changing the ratios, you're looking at about $7k

G50 - Will definitely handle a V8, but you must run it upside down for mid-engine. This puts this V8 engine's oil pan REALLY close to the ground.

Audi 5000 - good choice all around. Can handle high RPM torque, but may not handle the low-end torque. The audi 5000 turbo engines put out plenty of HP, and this trans can handle it, but that HP comes at higher RPMs. This trans is also better suited for light weight cars.

Hewland - big bucks, and unlike those transaxles mentioned above, the distance from the bellhousing to the axle centerline is about 10 - 12 inches ( I think ).

Porsche 928 - good all around... available in auto and stick. Adapter plates available to mount a V8 to the trans - without the torque tube, but the distance from the bellhousing to the axle center line is about 15 inches.

New Vette - If only GM put the gearbox behind the differential this would be my dream come true... but alas, the location of the gears puts the axle centerline about 15 or more inches from the bell housing.

VW trans - not a chance with a V8, but plenty of vw variants are available to handle the torque. Pick up a copy of Sand Sports magazine for a collection of available options.

Mendeola - about $15k and can handle any engine. I have no first-hand experience with them. No dimensional info.

Quaife - sequential gear shifting, high torque capacity, very nice... also about $15k

Transverse engine / trans - V8 archie popularized the use of sbc's in fieros. The trans of choice is a getrag ( available in some Fieros ) and the Isuzu trans ( the other available trans in a Fiero ) is not that bad either.

Anything with a northstar transverse is capable of moving a big, heavy Caddy around with no problem, but the wiring harness for the NorthStar engine and associated trans may be an issue for some.

Pre-NorthStar Caddy - Known to most as the 4.9L v8... this engine was the precurser to the NorthStar. Much easier wiring harness. Only mated to an auto trans... again, the trans can handle this engine.

that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head. Hopefully this info is helpful. I don't want to come off as a know it all... rather I'm submitting this information to generate some discussion. I'm open to any comments, suggestions, etc... If you would like to hear more, drop me a line.

dave@team321.com
Cocoa Beach FL

Two more come to mind...

The ZF transaxle that was used in the Pantera,
and the Renault 25 Transaxle.

The Renault is pretty rare in the states but I've seen complete cars on Ebay.
The Gearbox is popular with GT40 builders in Europe.
Shouldnt be too hard to get one shipped here ( you'd have to get the adaptors from there anyway...)

EDIT.

Nevermind...
Looking back through this thread I realised at what I just posted has already been said before.

x2cracing@msn.com
10-04-2007, 10:35 AM
not sure about the engineering, but would running it through a 4x4 transfer case work. yes , no , maybe?

mustangsix
10-04-2007, 11:03 AM
Here's another depiction of a V-drive setup:

http://www.alphamalerail.com/1_category/transmission/trans_images/turbo_425_v_drive_1.jpg

roadracer
10-04-2007, 12:20 PM
good grief, how much lost power through all that lot? I've never seen anything like that before. You'd think they could drive the rear straight off the back of the engine easier..except for that damn suspension concept I suppose :D

hrm2k
10-04-2007, 12:26 PM
you have a couple of choices that are from forgein cars. The 924, 944, 928 Porsche have trans axles. Kennedy engineering has the adaptors to bolt up to a small block. You could alos look into the Audi 4. It has a transaxle much like the Porsche but believe it or not, it will hold more HP than the Porsche. The Porsche 924 / 944 transaxle is good for about 350 HP.

nexxussian
10-11-2007, 07:17 AM
I know it's already been mentioned but the Poche G50 is about the stoutest manual box I have seen listed (that has synchros, I don't expect he wants a crashbox like the Hewland). The Toronado axle assy is compact and bulletproof, we have a guy here with the 455 and TH425 out of a Toronado in his Corvair, yes, it hauls ass. It even handles amzingly well (you can't really tell from the outside).

BJR
10-11-2007, 08:12 AM
Maybe this has been mentioned as I didn't read all of the posts. Why not run a conventional engine trans with a very short driveshaft or maybe just a CV joint and a 1990's T-Bird IRS? That would put the engine in front of the rear end by the length of the trans and driveshaft/ CV joint. Or would that be too far?

treb11
10-11-2007, 09:15 AM
corvair transaxle. do a web search for the Crown conversion kit

1gearhead
10-11-2007, 09:43 AM
The ZF 5-speed out of a Pantera is the best bet, but incredibly expensive. Next best alternative is the trans axle out of a Porsche. still not cheap but affordable to accompllish what you want to do.

strike a poser
10-11-2007, 02:52 PM
One thing not mentioned about useing the engine-trans-rearend bolted together with a common cradle for the assy. is the pivot location. You can put the pivot location anywhere along the cradle useing the engine as a counter ballance to take the unsprung weight off the wheels and the ride quality would't suffer at all.
The VW bus mentioned above drove to Bonniville from PA., ran there and drove home. It could'nt have rode that bad, the weight on the rear wheels is'nt much different than a pick-up.

Mojo
10-11-2007, 08:49 PM
I found pictures of a corvair a couple weeks ago on Ebay, it used a toro transaxle. The trick with this one, is that they removed the differential from the transaxle, and replaced it with a normal tailshaft. They then turned the motor around, and ran a very short driveshaft from the trans, to a normal ford rear axle suspended by 4-links.

In the corvair, it put the motor pretty far forward, about the same as a crown conversion. But it seems like a strong, compact method to get a mid-engine drivetrain. Unfortunately, there was no pictures of the drivetrain layout.

Mercmad
10-11-2007, 09:58 PM
Hello everyone,

I want to build a rear engine rod. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what to couple to a small block for a driveline. If I put the motor, trans and rear end all linked together it would be about 70 " long, plus I would have no suspension travel. Is there some transaxle that would work on a v8, or is there some trick out there? How did they do it on slingshots?

I'd appreciate any imput,

thanks,

nick
Panteras have ZF'($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) but replicas and kit car guys track down either the porshe 928 or Renualt dovrin V6( sp?) transaxle.Both handle V8 torque in a light car easily.

drag
10-19-2007, 03:16 PM
I helped a German guy mate a Porsche 924 or 944 with a small block Ford engine in a Ranger pickup when I was in Germany back in the 90s... There was always a great deal of alcohol involved so I don't remember much about the how... The engine had a flywheel and bell-housing from a manual transmission with a Porsche flywheel bolted to the ford one, then a shortened Porsche drive shaft went between the engine and the trans-axle... The engine was spaced a couple inches in front of the trans-axle and used regular motor mounts on the front and a plate going to a transmission mount below the bell-housing... The trans-axle used the solid mounts from the Porsche, with the IRS setup modified to fit the truck frame... The trans-axle took care of the clutch function but I don't remember how... The radiator was mounted in the front of the truck... I left before we built the exhaust or tried to figure out how to build the shifter assembly...

BeyerAutoSalvage
10-20-2007, 08:24 AM
Why not use the 325-4L trans from a Cadillac (82-85) with a BOP adapter and flip the ring gear? (puts the engine facing rear which puts more weight forward of the axle) This is what we are doing for a 99 Pontiac Sunfire GT. I have 3 325 4L tranny's, and 1 non OD 325 tranny. They are cheap as hell and can be built using TH350 and 200 4R parts inside to handle the grunt. I can also give you any dimensions you would like off these parts too.

ironhunter
10-20-2007, 08:40 AM
i've seen some vw powered dune buggies with the motor/trans turned around (engine in front of trans). i guess there is some way to reverse the gearbox? anywhos i have seen toyota, ranger 2.3s, sbcs, and even a few northstar caddies hooked to VW trannies. that would get you in front of the axle.....
good luck.:)

Just gotta flip the carrier over in the VW to run engine in front. If you're gonna use a toronodo, you'll have to use a BOP engine or buy an adaptor to downgrade to an SBC.
Use a Jag rear coupled with a double joint. You got fully independent suspension, inboard brakes, and the engine/tranny/3rd member can all be mounted rigid. Cheaper than anything else mentioned on the first page or so. Maybe somebody has mentioned it later in the post, but I got tired of reading.

Mojo
10-26-2007, 12:13 AM
Why not use the 325-4L trans from a Cadillac (82-85) with a BOP adapter and flip the ring gear? (puts the engine facing rear which puts more weight forward of the axle) This is what we are doing for a 99 Pontiac Sunfire GT. I have 3 325 4L tranny's, and 1 non OD 325 tranny. They are cheap as hell and can be built using TH350 and 200 4R parts inside to handle the grunt. I can also give you any dimensions you would like off these parts too.

how are you flipping the diff? Do you have pics?

nexxussian
10-26-2007, 03:39 AM
I have one (VW w/ a flipped diff) that I had a friend do for me. I don't have pctures, but you put the diff in with the ring gear on the other side of the pinnion. It works for the VW (earlier ones anyway) because the pinnion is centered in the case and both sides of the differential case portion of the transaxle unbolt. After you put the diff in backwards you set the gears up as normal (like the tech threads for the banjo rears) and go to town. My transaxle has one of the Dee Engineering (Bugpack) 4 spider 'Super Diff's in it, with the close ratio 3rd and 4th. But it's a Swing Axle, so I don't quite know what I'm gonna do with it now (the car I had it in is scrap iron now).

Reverand Greg
10-26-2007, 08:58 AM
Factory five racing uses adapters to use a porche trans axle to mate to an LT1 for one of there kit cars and this thing handles 500 hp.
www.factoryfive.com (http://www.factoryfive.com)

FredK
10-26-2007, 02:58 PM
Have you checked this link? :D
http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/915/915.asp

Misfit
10-28-2007, 03:53 PM
Why not use the 325-4L trans from a Cadillac (82-85) with a BOP adapter and flip the ring gear? (puts the engine facing rear which puts more weight forward of the axle) This is what we are doing for a 99 Pontiac Sunfire GT. I have 3 325 4L tranny's, and 1 non OD 325 tranny. They are cheap as hell and can be built using TH350 and 200 4R parts inside to handle the grunt. I can also give you any dimensions you would like off these parts too.

I sent you a pm, maybe you can help.

Thanks

pastlane
10-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned before but why not a Fiero setup? They made adapters for big & small block Chevies, it sits sideways so not too bulky. Don't know if there was a standard trans option (tend to think not). Years ago someone built a 32 roadster with a setup like this.

Ricola
11-01-2007, 10:34 PM
I built and currently own this Porsche 914. I used the stock 901 5 speed transaxle. I had it rebuilt with a billet intermediate plate and had 5th gear changed to an "H" gear to lower the RPM's at highway speeds. The engine is out of a 1980 eruo spec "S" Porsche 928. It is factory rated at 300 hp turning AC,PS,pullution pump and a big ass fan all of which I removed.

Guys run 350 HP through the 914 all the time.

Ricola
11-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Here the assembly.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/ricola_bucket/brokenengine004.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/ricola_bucket/928brokenengine002.jpg

This is just another form of Hot Rodding to me.

I used photo bucket for these.

wearymicrobe
11-01-2007, 11:01 PM
Just a quick note or to from someone who has done a whole lot of kit car building.

The Fiero is going to be dirt cheap to buy and build off, they will take a Northstar/LS1/SBC pretty easy.

The 914 is decent but price wise not the route that I would be looking shifter is a pain.

The Audi boxes have been used in the GT4's and a number or tube frame lambo builds over the years.

Don't even bother with the G50. To much cash same as the ZF, you are looking at 5K just for a core to rebuild. But if you want big HP numbers and have the cash they area good option.

You can use a flipped MDX or Honda Pilot combo in the back, the dune buggy guys have done it for a while, still not going to be cheap.

This has been done before, if you have the cash contact www.thuderranch.com they have a 32 kit called the lightning that uses the northstar motor mid engine with I believe a zf.

Model40-770
11-08-2007, 09:27 PM
If you are thinking chain drive like i have been....i am dropping a motorcycle engine in the rear of my 26 touring......just started modding the frame.....it is only a freebee GS450 engine but anything else would be a shoe in later....i'll be going with 1100cc or larger engine.....as far a light weight and compact it was the best thing i could think off.....the harley davidson servicar rearend looks just like a mini banjo rearend from a rear view......still sorting out my rearend choices but will be cutting up one soon........looking at gutting a banjo housing and going from there ......servicar rearends around here are really hard to find......

48fordnut
11-08-2007, 09:34 PM
I have a sbc to corvair adapter that was used in a mid eng sports car.

Rudgeman
11-08-2007, 09:44 PM
That toronado trans will bolt up to a small block, my best friend had a really terrible billet clad 84 dodge rampage street rod with a rear engine SBC. That is the trans that was in the car. The car was built by George Willever out of Pompton Plains New Jersey. Could not tell you how to get ahold of him,I think he lives in Florida now.

Palm Desert Rat
11-09-2007, 10:38 AM
Check out El Mirage and Bonneville belly tank race cars. They are rear engine set ups. Hot Rod magazine August '49 shows one of the earliest. More on another one in HR mag from '59 (do not know month). Running a Porche, Fiero, etc sound too lame to use in a Hot Rod.

luckyfasteddie
11-11-2007, 07:21 PM
I did it from scratch in 5 months.

zman
11-11-2007, 09:56 PM
Fiero seems to be the best bet, with the Corvair then the Audi.
but then again I'm cheap...

Besides a vette differential, what's a good differential that's irs, and not exotic.

Jag, has a Dana 44 center, and can be had cheap....

you will need a chevy to b-c-o-p trans adapter plate

shouldn't that be b-o-p, what's your c for?

nexxussian
11-12-2007, 11:19 AM
...shouldn't that be b-o-p, what's your c for?


Cadillac?

zman
11-12-2007, 12:35 PM
Cadillac?

Never heard of putting the C in there though, always just BOP... hmmm...

thehotrodguy
11-12-2007, 01:11 PM
Get a V-drive kit (made for race boats) - basically will allow you suspension travel, regular rear, etc. You run a short driveshaft from regular trans to the v-drive unit, then another driveshaft to the rear. The motor will look a little odd, considering the fron of the motor will be facing the rear of the truck.
I saw a 400 sm block in the bed of an early 80s S-10 with that setup, looked cool as hell and would wheelstand like nobody's business. Not much for driving quality, but the cool factor was 10x any s-10 I've seen.

terryr
11-13-2007, 12:21 AM
Pete Aardema has a mid engined 1937. And an interesting website.

http://www.aardemasohc.net/index_files/Page1158.htm

nexxussian
11-13-2007, 05:21 AM
SOHC SBC :D. BIG $$$$$ but still :D.

terryr
11-13-2007, 11:36 AM
There used to be a page where he put porsche 928 4 cam heads on a big block chevy, and put it in a 34 with a corvette transaxle. Can't find it. It was also on My Classic Car.

296moon
11-13-2007, 12:19 PM
use a toronado its easy,gonna do a rear engined race rod next as just finished this sleeper, rear suspension is stock with 600lb coils it handles great and its quick but will be even faster when I can aford some mondellow headshttp://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q286/296moon/bmw229.jpg

terryr
11-18-2007, 07:12 PM
That car reminded me that there was a mid engined kitcar about 20 years ago. They had an 'sports car' version and later came out with a hotrod version. Huge engine in the bed, an olds transaxle, and 1970's corvette rear suspension. Kelmark?

desoto
11-18-2007, 07:48 PM
Saw this 32 a few times !!!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH041.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH042.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH044.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/FCPRO/GGRH043.jpg

This is Bob Schutte's Deuce. Bob's REALLY tall and he needed the legroom afforded by the fact that there wasn't an engine in the middle of the firewall.

The car was built a few years ago (2004) by Mike Casey. Mike is now with Enigma Rod Shop in Billerica, MA. You can reach him at 978-667-6060.

The car's pretty straight forward. Toronodo driveline and a seen-one,-seen-
em-all tuned port small block.

desoto
11-18-2007, 07:56 PM
Here's the link to an engine shot.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/28/29/3/15/67/252631567hCdMhz_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1252631567028908655hCdMhz)

rockin rebel
11-19-2007, 06:22 PM
before All These Fancy Cars Came Out We Used Boat, V-drives. Work Great:d

terryr
11-29-2007, 12:26 AM
I found that company I was thinking of. Mid-Engineering run by Bill Porterfield. Wonder what happened to him?
He was nice enough to show his designs to anyone, and they were all copied and sold cheaply.
Some photocopies rephotographed.

He also won Hot Rods Street Machine of the Year with a mid engine 442.

http://members.aol.com/hrharrys/index7.html

Pauly da mick
01-22-2008, 10:02 PM
Audi trannys are popular with the kit-car crowd.

Heres a link you might find useful......

http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/5000/5000.asp

Model A Vette
01-22-2008, 10:47 PM
I'm running an MID Engineering adapter in my reversed 4.3 V6 rear engined Corvair.

I'd like to correct a couple of misconceptions about Corvair transmissions and transaxles.

The Corvairs up to and including 1965 used weak transmissions which were very similar to '64 and earlier big chevy transmissions. Small gears, small cases and easy to break.

The '66-'69 Corvairs used transmissions that were based on the big Chevy Saginaw 3spd and 4 spd trans. Chevy basically drilled the mainshaft to be hollow so that the shaft from the rear mounted engine could pass thru the diff and trans to connect to the main shaft on the front of the trans. They modified the case to allow shifting gears with a shaft similar to the way a T5 shifts, but in the bottom of the trans. The side cover looks like a 7 bolt side cover from a big Sag but has no holes for side shift arms. The trans mounts toward the front of the of the powertrain and if it were x-rayed you would think it was big Saginaw.

The Crown kits put a big car front shaft into the front of the Corvair trans so that an engine could be put in the rear seat of the car. The engine was not reversed and the trans and diff worked just like it did in a stock Corvair. There were no special Crown ring an pinions.

Kelmark and Kennedy Engineering turned the Corvair transaxle around and upside-down to get the transaxle/engine package shorter to allow more footroom in the Corvair.

There are kits to install 2 extra spider gears in the corvair diff to make it stronger.
Even with mods the Corvair transaxles are only dependable for about 300 hp or less. Anything more will make you an expert on rebuilding them. I started getting my expert badge in 1971 on my rear 350 Corvair.

twofosho
01-22-2008, 10:57 PM
66 to 69 Corvair 4 speed was based on the light/medium duty Saginaw, not a Muncie as stated above.

Depending on your machine/fabrication skills, the strongest and easiest to do cheap and dirty solution is most probably the Toro/Eldo powertrain complete and unmodified from whatever you find it in. Being that the cars they come in weigh 4000 to 5000 pounds plus, they should be able to shove a 2500 to 3000 pound car around quite easily. As stated above, using the entire frame section and suspension (with perhaps a second idler arm in place of the steering box) should be a cake walk in the overall scheme of things. In it's earlier 425 (400 based) guise it'll handle a 500 inch, 500 horsepower, 500 foot pound torque, Cad motor, no trouble. The last 325 OD ones much less, but reputedly can be beefed with the same parts used to beef a 200R4.

The Toro based drivetrain used in the AMBR winner Russ Meeks built for John Corno in the early 70's certainly shows what can be done with one.

kustombuilder
01-23-2008, 09:56 AM
i don't think i posted pics of what my buddy Dan Turner did to put a HEMI in the rear of his Studebaker. he basicly took an early 60s GM 3 speed and whacked the tailshaft off. he had the shaft itself shortened and resplined (and reheat treated i believe) and then made a very short housing to hold a bearing and seal. ad a SBC to HEMI adapter between the motor and the scatter shield and you have a low buck, home grown mid engine HEMI powered Studebaker.

it still puts the driver position pretty far forward but that HEMI looks DAMN COOL where the back seat used to be. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/kustombuilder/DansStude2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/kustombuilder/midengineStude.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/kustombuilder/midengineStude-4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/kustombuilder/Dansgarage008.jpg

Revhead
01-23-2008, 10:21 AM
A lot of people use Porsche 911 G50 trans axles flipped upside down with an adapter.. but expect to spend at least $1500 for the trans. I'm not positive, but you might be able to use a corvair transaxle. You need to use a mid engine corvair kit that uses a '66+ saginaw. Get the 4 spider gear kit too to make it stronger.. Clark's Corvair has everything including the adapter.

Also you can use modern corvette stuff with the torquetube and transaxle. C5+ ('97+). The corvette has a torquetube, but you can take it out and the engine will bolt directly to the transmission/differential combo.

Mac the Yankee
01-23-2008, 01:38 PM
This may have been covered (if it has, I apologize), but what about using the modern corvette transaxle and just shorten the torque tube to the desired length? This will give you the strength/dependability and the prices seem to be coming down...

54MEB
01-23-2008, 02:00 PM
With an adapter you can use the Audi 5000 transaxle. I'm using an A4. Both mount the engine longitudinal instead of transverse. They are relativley cheap and can handle lots of HP. Check out www.lambolounge.com for some examples.

Here's the dirrect link http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmission/5000/5000.asp

DocWatson
01-23-2008, 03:07 PM
Kind of a no no, having all that unsprung weight but this is still kinda cool. The Don Waite roadster. Sorry I cant find a pic of the whole car.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/docwatson1938/DonWaite-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/docwatson1938/DonWaite-1.jpg

Doc.

sidevalveguru
11-05-2008, 07:19 PM
It's going into the bed of a 1936 ford pick up. I want the cab to be forward. I want it to have the look of a pickup for the dry lakes.
Could you do it like an old inboard?
Engine/tranny/xfercase in backwards; spool in xfer case, driveshaft down side of motor. Will have to have an offset rear.

Mike Miller
11-05-2008, 08:00 PM
Pontiac Fiero GT has the whole setup, some have been converted to SBC from 2.8 V6 most of that running gear was Citation and was used on sunbirds. The whole thing comes on a sub frame. Cheap

James427
11-05-2008, 08:31 PM
I was in Columbus Ohio about 5 years ago and drove by a guys house that had what looked like a yellow GT-40 on a shelf in the back. Turned out to be a kit car body. So of course I stopped by and asked to look! He had a real clean 32 Ford 2 door sedan, black, pinstriped and I think with red wheels. He was making a "traditional" looking rear engine flatty street rod. I think I rremember it being a chain drive too. Is this the Grimes car before it was finished????? I never saw it with more than a shell of the body.

If it wasn't his car, does anyone else know who that was in Ohio??

art.resi
11-05-2008, 09:13 PM
C5 or C6 transaxle and leave out the tq tube.
They are t56 6 speeds or autos .

Al Napier
11-05-2008, 09:31 PM
If you do a little Googling for a Kelmark GT (kit car) you'll probably find a few examples of them using Toronado transaxles and glean some good info. for yourself.

Al in CT

Richard D
11-05-2008, 10:45 PM
Could you do it like an old inboard?
Engine/tranny/xfercase in backwards; spool in xfer case, driveshaft down side of motor. Will have to have an offset rear.
V-drive?

4t64rd
11-06-2008, 07:50 AM
Those were manufactured by Crown Engineering(Ted Trevor)and was a great set up.I rode in one that had a modified 365hp 327 in it and that car got hammered pretty severely(Reeves Callaway built it).It used the Corvair transaxle with the Crown ring and pinion and modified Corvette halfshafts supplied by Crown.The trans was basically a T-10(wide ratio)with a different case and gave no problems whatsoever. I don't know if Crown is still in business or not.

Crown is owned by Clarks Corvair Parts now, they still make some of the pieces and they have a website:

http://www.corvair.com/user-cgi/main

exwestracer
11-06-2008, 08:19 AM
thanks richard d,

will that bolt up to a small block?

Toro/Eldo units use a different bellhousing bolt pattern, but they've been putting Chevys in front of them for years. Shouldn't be too hard to find the right adaptor. BTW, all GMC motorhomes use the same transaxle.

brett4christ
11-06-2008, 09:21 AM
What years Toronados and/or ElDorados used these transaxles? I would like to keep the engine "north/south".

Mojo
11-09-2008, 12:22 AM
What years Toronados and/or ElDorados used these transaxles? I would like to keep the engine "north/south".

66 to 77? for the Toro's, and 67 through 77? for the eldos. I think 78 was the downsized car that used a th325 trans, instead of the th425. Sometime in the mid or late 80's they went to 4 speed autos based on the 700R4. Extremely weak without modifications. It's my understanding that all the transaxles share the same internals as the conventional transmissions, so they can all be hopped up. I've never tried it, so take it with salt.

The smaller eldo's used the same longitudinal setup all though the 80's I believe, if not the early 90's. The smaller cars have the same front susupension layout as the big ones, it's just scaled down. Might be useful for putting the motor in the back of something, although it's all pretty heavy stuff.

luckyfasteddie
11-09-2008, 04:28 PM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/luckyfasteddie/DSC00477.jpg

Matt Franklin
11-09-2008, 05:28 PM
Hey, LuckyFast,
Is this the latest layout?
Are you going for more of an open-engine look?
I like it!


http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/luckyfasteddie/DSC00477.jpg

luckyfasteddie
11-09-2008, 07:04 PM
Thanks , I had a bed on it,the clutch went out,had to remove everything to get at it and liked the way it looked with everything exposed .Moved gas tank to under the hood ,relocated tail lights Toying with making new engine frame out of 1/2" x3" steel with holes LFE

Mr48chev
11-09-2008, 07:12 PM
It's been done
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/Rob-D/Roslyn%2007%20Run%20to%20Roslyn/RuntoRoslyn07004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/Rob-D/Roslyn%2007%20Run%20to%20Roslyn/RuntoRoslyn07003.jpg

Mid 70 Eldorodo drive train with a 500 Cad

with an adapter you could hook a small block to that trans or possibly the later Eldo/ toronado drive trains (around 79) would be easier to find.

plym49
11-09-2008, 07:26 PM
Corvair transaxle. Will take all you can give it.

Late model, you can try a Porsche 911 transaxle. SBC adapters are available (check out factoryfive; they use this setup for one of their kit cars), but the 911 core will be $$$$.

The corvair rear was used with a SBC by many builders over the years, including on the Manta kit car.

skwurl
11-09-2008, 07:40 PM
Thanks , I had a bed on it,the clutch went out,had to remove everything to get at it and liked the way it looked with everything exposed .Moved gas tank to under the hood ,relocated tail lights Toying with making new engine frame out of 1/2" x3" steel with holes LFE
I like it much better with ther bed on it. Just my.02

Matt Franklin
11-14-2008, 12:15 PM
I appreciate the way you keep making it better. Yup, an artistic engine frame with holes sounds like a great next step.



Thanks , I had a bed on it,the clutch went out,had to remove everything to get at it and liked the way it looked with everything exposed .Moved gas tank to under the hood ,relocated tail lights Toying with making new engine frame out of 1/2" x3" steel with holes LFE

repoguy
11-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Cadillac Northstar set-up would be interesting.

Misfit
11-14-2008, 12:46 PM
I bought an '83 Toronado donor for my rear engined project. It has the 4 spd overdrive so I believe it's the TH325. I plan on turning the engine around and flipping the pumkin as well - if it can be done.

luckyfasteddie
11-14-2008, 04:46 PM
I appreciate the way you keep making it better. Yup, an artistic engine frame with holes sounds like a great next step.
this pic is a gen idea of what I'm thinkin,my little 2.8 has plenty of get up and go and gets 23+MPG with the tall tires , its also gonna be a part time rpu this summer LFE

gasserjohn
11-14-2008, 06:25 PM
look up chevoda 55?chev s/w nomad complete photo build on his web site....wheel standing street car all the imfo you need

Steve Grimes
11-14-2008, 07:25 PM
Hey James 427. that was me you visited in Columbus Ohio; I've still got the "chain car" and it runs great.

Steve Grimes

luckyfasteddie
11-14-2008, 08:13 PM
Wow that is awesome,any build pics anywhere ?

ken1939
11-14-2008, 08:35 PM
Yes my suggestion may have been mentioned, but I know you can put a northstar in a fiero, soo.....

luckyfasteddie
12-11-2008, 04:59 PM
I appreciate the way you keep making it better. Yup, an artistic engine frame with holes sounds like a great next step.
Been working on the next step,not done yet but it is starting to take shape,spent about 20 hours in the garage this week with my youngest son,dont get any better than that LFE