y-block to shoebox? School me!

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Hello y-block experts,

I just took the shoebox out for the inaugeral run around town and I have now realized that the flathead (original, been sitting for 30 years) comes nearer and nearer to death daily. (Bad noises, a lot of blow by, and mysterious coolent eating)

So I am thinking that a step up to a "late model" engine is probably in the works for next winter. I think I want to go with a y-block. I have all summer to gather parts and pieces. Please let me know what I will need to make the swap! I would like to keep the 3 speed that is under the car now, will there be a problem with that?

Does anyone know where I can find a "runner" y-block (cheap is good http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Thanks!
Mike

[du$ty]

im no expert....but ive got a shoebox ford trans and rearend backed to my y block in my T.....so i know for a fact you can keep that 3 speed from the flatty.and that rearend will hold up just fine too.all you need is a y block car bellhousing.the clutch disc will also work as long as its the same size as your pressure plate you get with your engine...you know 10 inch would be best i believe the truck ones are 11.49-50 is the big spline in 58 it went to a 23 spline.if ya need any more info just howler at me.ill help ya out best i can.

[286merc]

Dont know what year you have but the 49 has weak axles. Upgrade to 50-1 and you are OK with a Y as long as you dont beat it. Y 3spds after 55 are a lot stronger and usually dirt cheap.
Ive torn up several shoebox trannys behind even hot flatheads but I was never completely sane when younger either.

Your flatty problem could be as simple as a blown head gasket. Getting coolant into the oil will make a mess of the bearings in short order.

[du$ty]

286 merc ...think hes ok...looks like he has a 51 ....also i belive you can put a 289 flywheel and pressure plate on a y block.i think thats what i got to match up.

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I've got a '51. Does the engine fit in the engine compartment without modification? I realize I am going to need engine mounts, but is there a rear sump pan that I will need to look out for?

Thanks for the heads up on the 289 flywheel.

Has anyone out there done the swap that I am contemplating? I would love to see pics and hear some tips!

Thanks!
Mike

[du$ty]

we'll you will have plenty of room.i saw a great shoebox this weekend with a 312 in it.its on one of the million round up picts.not sure which post.you'll have room.and that trans will bolt up.pretty easy swap if ya ask me.you'll be fine.you got a couple differnt ways to mount that motor also.side mounts ..or front mounts like on a truck or thunderbird.i have a front mount plate from a truck if you want to go that way.

[Fat Hack]

Ford started offering the y-block in 53-54, so mounts from one of those oughtta work for ya.

(A radiator from a 54 y-block car should fit in easily enough, too.)

As engine swaps go, this one shouldn't be too hard at all! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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Your flatty problem could be as simple as a blown head gasket. Getting coolant into the oil will make a mess of the bearings in short order.

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No coolant in oil. I think it is leaking out of one of the water pumps. That is the least of my worries. The bad noises are a stuck lifter/broken valve combo, and a knock, barely audible over the lifter noise. There are probably also a million cracks in the block. I just resurected it from a 30 year slumber and I have no idea on the previous history. It has never run great for me, but it runs good enough to bomb around town. I would like to put an engine in that I can get up over 50 mph with out worrying that the pistons are going to change holes. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Thanks for all the info,
Mike

Kartbreaker~ I wished you lived closer...most people in my area don't know ford made any engines prior to the 5.0 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[du$ty]

topdead....hahah 5.0...shush.....ive got one of those in the garage too....hahaha can you say 331 someday....dont tell anyone...im gonna say its a 260...hahha.like i said howler if ya need something.

[Tuck]

I have a running 302 ill trade you for your flathead

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No thanks on the 302. I've got one of those sitting on a palet in the corner. (probably could run) But I just want to stick with something that was availible in the 50's. (I know that that sounds like I am being a "traditional fag", but that is what I want for this car)

Thanks anyway!
Mike

[warbird]

Not a bad swap at all. As others have said, you can use the stock 3-speed behind the Y-block, or substitute a later tranny. Even a top-loader 4-speed would be pretty much a bolt in.

You'll need to find a truck or T-bird oil pan and oil pickup in order to clear the front crossmember. Hurst used to make motor mounts for this swap, you may be able to turn up a set on e-bay. If you do use Hurst mounts, you'll also need a truck or Bird front cover, or plan on making some spacers for use with the standard pass. car cover. Or just make up your own mounts, probably be just as easy.

If you really want to keep things 6-volt, that can be done. I seem to recall that you can mix and match parts from the flathead and Y-block starters to come up with a 6v. unit. Find a '54 or '55 Ford generator and you're all set. However, I'd just convert to 12v. and be done with it.

Exhaust system shouldn't be a problem as there's a lot of room for it. Throttle linkage will take a little engineering as will the clutch linkage. I can't remember exactly how the cross-over shaft was laid out on a '51, but you should be able to come up with some kind of mount for the engine side of it.

I helped on a couple of these swaps way back when, and they all turned out well with a big increase in power and drivability.

[286merc]

The Y is going to come in at 200+ lbs over the flatty so dont expect good handling or braking unless you do some work.

The mounts are the easy part, the Y is going to sit a lot higher than the flatty and the oil filter adaptor/element will be talking to your steering column. I dont know what headers are available or what factory dual manifolds work. Its been decades since I saw that swap done.

Also remember that there are 2 bellhousings. The truck had mounting ears and the car having the side mounted motor mounts did not.

Maybe Warbird or someone else can come up with pix or magazine references. I sort of remember a 3 carb 312 shoebox featured back in the day.

[Brock49Ford]

Once you go Cadillac...you never go back.
http://photo.starblvd.net/brock49ford/1-1-3.jpg
I can tell you all about putting one of those in there. I skipped the Y-block but I have a really cool book, copy actually, that details several swaps, Cad, Olds, Hemi into the Shoebox. I'll see if there is any Ford to Ford swaps, there is a novel concept.

[Bigcheese327]

I think there was a white shoebox with a six-carb 312 in R&C event coverage a while back - no hood, it looked real cool. I always tend to think of Cads or Olds's in shoeboxes because of C9's stuff - maybe that would be a good route as he seems to be pretty intimate with the swap and could probably help you out.

[Bigcheese327]

Wow, I guess Brock beat me to it.

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Sure I could make a Fordillac or a Foldsmobile. But I would still need the proper info and a running motor. (and I would love to leave the trans alone) Nothing has been ruled out yet!

Brock, Anyway I could get a copy of you copy?

Bigcheese,286, thanks for all the info! I am going to print this thread for future reference.

Bttt for the day crew!
Mike

[warbird]

[ QUOTE ]
The Y is going to come in at 200+ lbs over the flatty so dont expect good handling or braking unless you do some work


286 is right about the increased weight, but when I was involved in this swap all we were really concerned about was beating the '55 Chevys.


The mounts are the easy part, the Y is going to sit a lot higher than the flatty and the oil filter adaptor/element will be talking to your steering column. I dont know what headers are available or what factory dual manifolds work. Its been decades since I saw that swap done.


I can't remember having any clearance problems with the oil filter, but if need be a remote filter adapter will fix that. Just be sure you've to the block adapter for the spin-on element and not the canister type. Any of the stock rear outlet manifolds should work but you could run one of the goofy looking front outlet units on the drivers side if need be. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



Maybe Warbird or someone else can come up with pix or magazine references. I sort of remember a 3 carb 312 shoebox featured back in the day.


I don't have any pictures of the way we did it, sorry. But I seem to remember an article about this swap in one of the "little pages" from the mid fifties. I'll have to dig through my collection and see what I find.




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[warbird]

OK, found it. August, 1956 Car Craft. Engine Swap: OHV for '49-'53 Fords, by Eric Rickman

Article indicates that there is an oil filter/steering gear interference problem, at least with the canister type filter they used. I recall using a spin-on with no problems, but a remote filter would take care of any clearance issues for certain.

They shortened the front mounted road draft tube to clear the front crossmember, but one of the later rear mounted tubes would take care of that.

They modified the transmission mount to allow the engine to sit one inch further forward to allow for more firewall clearance. Again, that's a problem I don't recall running into.

Motor mounts were fabricated, using a setup similiar to the early Bird front mount with torque stabilizing rods on each side of the motor.

Worst part of the swap was dropping the center steering arm to clear the rear-sump Bird oil pan. Modifying a truck pan MAY allow you to avoid this step, but then again maybe not. On one of the swaps I helped on years ago, we notched the center of the front crossmember to allow the stock Y-block pass. car pan to fit. Then boxed in the cut-out for strength. Don't know if I'd do it that way again as then you have to pull the motor to drop the pan. And no telling what that does to the strength of the crossmember.

They also moved the stock column shifter to the bottom of the steering column to get more room for the shift linkage. But hey, a good floor shifter would alleviate that little problem!

Also, they had to relocate the battery and modify the throttle linkage, but that's easy stuff.

Hope this helps some.

Like I said, I don't remember having some of the above mentioned problems on the swaps I participated in, but I've been known to exhibit signs of advanced CRS from time to time. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Warbird is my new hero! I collect old car crafts and I went looking in my stash and wouldn't you know it, Aug 56 is the only one I am missing from that year http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I will have to find it at the swaps or on epay.

Thanks again for all of that info!
Mike

[warbird]

One other little tidbit. The '56 Car Craft article shows the engine ready to install with the early Bird pan. In comparing that pic to a truck pan I found hiding under the work bench today, it appears that the rear sump on the Bird pan is somewhat deeper than the one on a truck pan. So, use the truck pan and you MAY not have to mess with the steering gear. Think I'd rather modify the pan than the steering gear.

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Truck pan... check
Spin on filter or relocater... check
correct mounts... check

Just making my swap meet list for this summer http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks again everyone,
Mike

By the way I would still like a copy of the copy of that book that shows all those engine swaps, let me know.

[du$ty]

i know ill catch shit for it....but if it was me id keep a Ford in a Ford.i know you'll make the right choice. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif if your going y block.howler at me i have some spare parts. i even have an extra engine id give you...Radshit gave it to me...id pass on the love to a y head!.but i dont know how id get it to you.hamb relay anyone?

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I know I would love to keep this ford all ford, but I may have just stumbled on a good running 58 buick parts car with another nonrunner for more parts. (364 Nailhead) WAY CHEAP! I think Wilcap makes an adapter to hook one to a Ford Trans. I am checking. I know that is going to take some surgery to shoehorn into that engine bay. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I will see if it is really a runner or not,
Thanks again for all the info and the engine offer! (too far away http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)

Mike