Why is my car so DAMN SLOW????

[flamedabone]

Seriously. This has been drivin me nuts since the HAMB Drags.

She ran a 13.40 @ 101.9 mph. That doesn't sound so bad, but I've got 408 cubes and 2400#s. Kind of a wuss gear, 3.25 w/ 30 inch tire.

Since the drags, I have been keeping an eye on other guys times and now I'm REALLY self concious.

The closest I have found to my combination is a dude who has almost my exact Pontiac motor. (Same heads, cam, etc. Makes 465 horse at the flywheel.). He's also got a 3.25 gear and 30 in tires. BUT- His car is a 3600# mullet car Firebird. He runs....12.50s @ 110 mph.

What the FUCK!!!????

Ryans big assed skinny block ran low 13s' too, BUT he was crankin off 116 mph spinnin the tires till the eight mile mark. My car was hooked up pretty well, I thought. It's just FUCKIN SLOW.

So what do you think? Was the 104 degree temp killin the motor? How 'bout the 1000 foot altitude? What is my "corrected" ET? Would that make me feel better? Or, do I just need to hang my head in shame and park this sumbitch.

Slowly out of the closet, -Abone.

[Ryan]

Ummm.... 13.40 is fast as all hell for a street car... Even faster for a 60+ year old car using aged technology... Go buy a 2003 Vette and see what you run.

I don't think alot of people understand just how fast a 13 second street car is. That is scary fast.

And don't forget, we were running on a 104 degree day on just about the slipperiest (not a word, I know) track I've ever seen...

[hankcash]

you probably need some stickers.
my civic used to be slow, then I added a couple of NOS stickers to the winshield... now it's real fast!
HC

[FeO2]

Don't worry A Bone(as I hand him my favorite Crying Towel)You still have the Coolest looking car at the track(or on the street)Style points alone outweigh your less than stellar time slip...Charlie http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tuck]

When i built my mustang i was told to start at the rear end and work up to the motor...

it doesnt matter what you have for horse power if you dont have the right gears and tranny combo.

I would move to lower gears as step #1

I ran 3:73's and a T-5 with a kevlar button clutch... that alone shaved OVER a second off my ET

Tuck

[choprods]

NO.......30.9 is SLOW...... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rickyracer1962]

sounds like your A is twice as fast as burndup's truck.

[DrJ]

It is so a word!
slip·per·y ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(slp-r)
adj. slip·per·i·er, slip·per·i·est

1. Causing or tending to cause sliding or slipping: a slippery sidewalk.
2. Tending to slip, as from one's grasp: a slippery bar of soap.
3. Not trustworthy; elusive or tricky: “How extraordinarily slippery a liar the camera is” (James Agee).

[SAVAGE]

You need to have Rickyracer help toon up your car. My coupe ran 13.6 at 2700 above sea level at palmdale. I would agree with ryan 13 second street car is really fast. My coupe scares me and most people who ride with me..

[SAVAGE]

my cousins car is a little better though,. He has a street driven 66 chevelle he built all himself that runs 7s in the 1/4 mile. he has a 622 in it. He got it when he was like 13 and has been improving it for about 15 years

[SAVAGE]

here is another shot of it. He isn't satisfied yet he took a year off and plans to do another engine that makes about 200 more horsepower

[Boones]

Lets finding a set of slicks and a set of gears and see what it will go even if it is only a 1/8 mile track. If it is still a baby then give it a bottle. your still one of the fastest in town, just dont miss with that red Honda Civic...

Ryan, I respectively disagree, mid 13's, is not fast for a street car ... decent yes but not fast especialy for something under 2800 lbs.. I say this as back in '84 I had a 67 camaro with a 355 sbc & 4sp with high gears (273's) and it would run 13:80 to 13.95 (1/4 mile) depending on the track temp with street tires and except for the highschool kids (which I was) I would get my ass dusted all the time on the street Maybe the Portland/Vancouver area just had some fast cars so it twisted my concept.... It took something in the 12's to be considered quick and 11's to be really fast..

I still think it takes 12's to be respected on the street.

[fatassbuick]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to have Rickyracer help toon up your car. My coupe ran 13.6 at 2700 above sea level at palmdale. I would agree with ryan 13 second street car is really fast. My coupe scares me and most people who ride with me..

[/ QUOTE ]
I love that picture!

My humble opinion would be to change the rear end gear. What was your RPMs through the traps? What's your redline? Also, weight distribution plays a role. Did you rebuild your tranny? Maybe it's slipping.

[flamedabone]

See, dammit? Even Boones' mulett car is hangin with me.

I went with a puss gear, smaller cam and tight converter so I would be able to drive it where ever when ever, But I still think this thing should run a high twelve in full street trim.

What really chaps my ass is the damn Firebird. The EXACT SAME motor as me with the same gear set/tire dia. Even with 1200# more weight he's KICKIN MY ASS BY A FULL SECOND!!!

Damn mulett cars...

How bout the temp thing? Would an 80 degree day get me in the 12s?

I know using your "corrected ET" sounds like you are a pussy, but if it will get me into the 12s, my fragile little ego might stay intact.

Help me, guys. I'm gettin made fun of.

PS. Savage, that's a bitchn' shot of your coupe.

[rickyracer1962]

are you running an automatic? whats your stall speed if you are? probably just need a little more gear and a higher stall

[HOTRODPRIMER]

-Abone, the sedan does have the aerodynamics of a barn,,, http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Try a different gear that should step up your times!HRP

[Fat Hack]

The Mulletbird probably has an advantage in weight transfer, traction and aerodynamics.

They sound like little things, but as you get faster and faster, it takes alot more to keep getting faster...

(It's easy to take a 21 second car and make it run 18s, but it takes more effort (money, etc) to make the 18 second car go 15s...and then to get that 15 second car into the 12s takes an even BIGGER step...and so on!)

In short, you are at the point where you will have to tweak and maximize several things to get noticeably lower ETs...traction and gearing will help you overcome whatever you may lose to aerodynamics, and a multitude of other factors will help creep you closer to your target times as well.

Things like front end alignment, tire pressure, transmission performance (good shifts, no slips, little parasitic loss, etc), and so many other items you can optimize.

Some transmissions (automatics) are giant heat sinks that really soak up alot of power. For instance, if you have a TH400 and your Firebird buddy has a TH350, he's using less power to operate his tranny than you are...the trannys which require less power to operate are usually not as strong, but you will go faster till they break! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 727 Torqueflites and C6 autos gobble up LOTS of power compared to their more thrifty 904 and C4 counterparts.

Lots of things to consider in the quest for more...and every item gets more and more critical the faster you're going already!

Just takes time, patience, calculated effort and a solid game plan...you can get into the 11s with different gearing, better tires, maybe a converter change and some practice seeing what driving style works best...it's a science...but a fun one! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Boones]

hey lets line it up against the shop truck and see how she does... or just forget about making it go fast and let your frustrations out on the Henry J.. That will have a better weight transfer, better tires and a little more engine set back.. and be street legal to boot...

[wingnutz]

With your 406 it's important to coordinate the drivetrain to compliment the "Sweet Spot" of your motor's torq and horsepower band.

It would be very helpful to know your cam specifications so that you can determine what gear set to use. Comp. cams has a hot line that can help you find the right cam for the car, using the gear ratio, weight, trany, tire height, and engine component combination. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

You should match the distributor advance to the RPM's of your stall converter. Put lighter springs in the distributor so that full advance kicks in just before torq convertor lock-up! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My street driven 31 roadster that weighed 2,150 lb's (with me in it) with a 355 cu.in. turbo 350, 3,500 stall, MSD 6 and a 3:55 gearset in the quikchange ran a 10.92 @ 123 mph. all because I stayed with the right combination for that car. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don't go changing gears around until you find out about your motors "sweet spot"! (you may have to Tickle it a bit to find it!)! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mark

[jdubbya]

It needs a new gear, the 30" tires even make it worse. Try a 3.73 gear to use with a 30" tire. That gear will still make it real streetable.

[flamedabone]

10.92!!! Yea, that makes me feel MUCH better....

Does anyone know the sea level correction factor? If altitude and an 80 degree day would drop .40 off my et, I would live with that...

[fatassbuick]

http://www.pontiacracing.net/altitude%20correction.htm

[scotth]

Man, I hate to say it, but it sounds like it's down on power! If you plug those #'s into a calculator, it says you're only making 198 HP (at the flywheel!) As others have mentioned, the tranny may be eating it, the convertor may be slipping, etc. Is the motor tight? Good compression, leakdown, good tune? Did you try running it "cold" (letting sit for a hour or two before you run it.)

I'd say take it back to the track and beat on it, experiment with tune and driving style and see where it goes. You didn't mention 60 ft, how did it look there? It sounds like the car is working, chassis-wise. 13.4 is a pretty good ET for 101.9 MPH. (A typical mustang is running 13.8-9 or so with those traps)

Also, I plugged in your gear ratio, and tire size into the handy calculator, and it says you're only hitting 3994 Rpms in high gear (1:1) at 101.9! If you want to maximize your 1/4 mile performance, pick the MPH you want to go, the max RPM you want to spin it, plug that into the formula (with your tire size) and it'll tell you how much gear you need. If you wanna do 120MPH, shifting at 5800 with a 30" tire, you need a 4:30 gear (roughly.) You'd be hitting your redline at the finish line in high gear.

I put the calculators on my old moostang website if you wanna play with it. http://www.sh3d.com/ss/calculators.asp

Shameless plug: I have some drag tree simulators I built you can play with there too...

-Scott

[Ryan]

Yeah, a whole lot of traditional hot rods run 12s... And for that matter, line me up with any one of your buddies that "run 12s" and I'll spank their asses in my '38.

If you want to get real technical - 13 secs ain't all that fast. There are street cars that run 6-second quarters now days, but it all goes back to what you call streetable... Could you drive one of those "street cars" to the HAMB drags from over 1000 miles away?

This subject has always bothered me a bit. I've spent more time at the drag strip than prolly anyone registered on the HAMB... I've seen more guys go to the track claiming 11 or 12 second quarters only to go home with 14-second et slips. Bottom line, I don't believe any talk till I see it... And if you don't think 13 seconds is fast, you've never driven a 13 second car on the street.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[fatassbuick]

[ QUOTE ]
... Could you drive one of those "street cars" to the HAMB drags from over 1000 miles away?



[/ QUOTE ]
Boy, that's the fucking truth. I almost shit when I hear flamed was driving all the way out there.

I know a guy who can barely get his car ten miles to work because it's a "race car". Runs 7.9 to 8.0 in the 1/8th.

Hold your head up.

[burndup]

[ QUOTE ]
sounds like your A is twice as fast as burndup's truck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ricky speaks the truth, yet I have no "issues" with my vehicle's slowness.

My truck was designed to haul pussy, not ass! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[rickyracer1962]

too bad it only hauls one pussy, and hes the driver. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tman]

Yeah Flamed, you are tops in my book for what you did. What was that 2500 roundtrip AND pull off 13s all day????? No interior,insulation, side windows?!@!!!!!! Fuck, you are my hero. You will be god if you build that Henry J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And BTW, that track was snot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I heard 130 on the concrete from one of the locals. NOBODY could hook up perfect.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I would imagine the altitude definitely has something to do with it. I ran a 12.4 at palmdale waaayy above sea level...then ran 11.2 when i brought the car back to the east coast. I would also agree that you need to lower the gear ratio...your e.t's show that your loosing all that power somewhere

[Hot Rod To Hell]

I have to agree, 13's ain't bad. BUT, I definitely agree, SOMETHING in your combination isn't right. A damn near stock ponch 400 should go 13's in a 2400# car. What's the word on your setup (Air cleaner, carb, intake, heads, cam, headers) ??? A lot of the things that you need to do to keep a car "streetable" don't really apply to that light of a car. And most magazine guys are pussies about what will be "streetable", so guys that listen to them usually err on the side of "way too small", instead of getting close to the ideal combo for there particular ride. I have a VERY streetable 3100# car that goes 10's on the motor. It sure wasn't built on a budget http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif, but the combo's pretty damn close to ideal. Let's make with the details and we'll get you cruisin down the track in no time! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SimonSez]

There are a lot of gains to be made in the details. Have you played around with advance curves, timing, jetting, secondary springs, etc ?

An an example, I had a '32 roadster with a 351 that went from 14.4 to 13.9 just by changing from a shitty 10" aircleaner to a 14" K&N.

I wouldn't rush out and do things like changing rear gears until you have got the best out of the combo you have now. Anyway, if you are going to race on street tyres, too much gear and stall speed will just spin the wheels.

[WZ JUNK]

My best run of the day of the HAMB drags was a 13.4. I have ran a 13.2 on that strip before and so I do not think the heat effected the track a lot. My poorest time of the day was my run against you at a 13.8 and that run was in the hotter part of the day. I am going back there to run in the Hot Rod Reunion in two weeks. I am looking for some 3:73 gears to replace the 3:23 that I currently run. I have ran in the street rod shoot out the last few years and have found that most fast daily driven hot rods run in the high 13’s to 14’s. The Model A sedan at the drags with the blower motor has been driven from OK to Indy Goodguys and ran in the street rod shoot out, before being driven back to OK. I have seen him run in the low 12’s and be street legal. These are the cars that you can drive half way across the United States without problems. A fast car that could be driven on the street is the red coupe we saw at the drags that will run in the 10’s but I would not want to drive it a long distance to an event. I think your car is probably a low 12’s car and you could still drive it daily. If you start messing with it too much, you will end up with a drag car and then kiss your street driving good bye. I will give you a year to mess with it, and then bring it back here. I want a redo.

[Tuck]

why not rush out and buy GEARS?

First thing I would do...
NOT buying gears is having the same mentality that buying a bigger carb will make your car go faster... WTF?

My buddy has been trying to beat my 5 liter ever since he got his 67 firebird on the road.

Hes spent over 22 grand in his quest. The car is MINT.

The bigest single thing that made his car go faster was his GEARS???

it doesnt mater if you have 400 HP or 200 HP
you not gonna GO anywhere in the 1/4 or 1/8 if you dont have the right drive train.

He invested in strange axles and 4 different combos of gears.

He bought a 6AL, went from 350 to 455 pontiac big block... did everything you could imagine, best carb intake combo, did his research... got down in the low 12's on the "strip"

Guess what... all that money on his engine got him NOWHERE... over 400HP and MY 270HP with the right GEARS still kicked his ass by 2 car lenghs in the quarter.

WHY? b/c of gears and suspension...

that was OFF the bottle.

I agree that a 12 second car is fast. 13's is ok... that'll scare yer mom and impress your g/f... but a solid 12 et will plant your ass in the seat.

I spent alot of time Drag racing my 5.0, but i never brag about it here... Theres a drag strip 15 miles from my house. I also had NOS 150HP w/ 15# bottle.. tokyo about and I emptied the bottle in one night~ then toppers shindig where i ran it about 35 times down the 1/8 mile at there show n go~

I think there are alot of guys on this board with REAL seat time in a car that just dont talk about it here...

I was really into racing for a while then moved on... just like a stint I had with mud trucks... never wavered from rods and kustoms....

Go buy a set of gears... best investement twards a quicker ET you could make...

a stock mustang suspension alone was good for taking a 14.8 to a 13.3
Gears shaved a second and a half off my et,
NOS shaved another FULL SECOND
slicks another half...


horsepower means SHIT
Tuck

[38Chevy454]

Flamedabone, I think your engine could be down on what actual power you think, the suggestions for tuning the advance curve and the timing, etc. are all good ones. However, the biggest improvement you can make is gears and some converter. I think you would gain a bunch even with a new good quality converter. A good converter will multiply the torque by a factor of 2 or so. The gears will help get the engine up in the power range, but at the expense of freeway rpms. A turbo 400 does take a lot of power to operate vs a turbo 350. You can also look into suspension improvements so you can plant the tires harder and get better traction even with street tires, I do not recall what your rear suspension is.

Now that we discussed ideas on going faster, do not take it so hard about your times. Compare to what almost everyone else was running and you see that your car was in tha faster 20% of cars at MoKan. Even higher if you take out the dedicated drag cars.

BTW, Pontiacs are torque motors, so use that to your advantage, they not high rpm screamers.

[burndup]

[ QUOTE ]
too bad it only hauls one pussy, and hes the driver. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, I KNEW you were gonna come back with something like that...

shitshitshit...

NO! You're just plain WRONG, ok?! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Boones]

Ryan I think you missed what I was saying...I was not talking about a traditional hot rod running 12's. I would not say FlamedAbones hot rod is traditional, a very cool hot rod it is but not traditional.. When I was talking about 12's runs, I was talking about fast street cars (any make). I agree 12's in a traditional hot rod is fast. especially with what was available at the time...

From driving and riding in it around here I know it is quicker then what he posted at the drags...

As for your ride, I know it is fast from run times you have talked about here on the board and probably capable of whooping on most truly streetable sreet cars out there.. I only wish I had something that ran that well. Flamer was telling me how bad it sounded

[AHotRod]

Seriously...at 101MPH, the engine just isnt making good horsepower. I'd like to know what the engine combination is?
Cam profile, ignition, carburation,exhaust,etc.
Not to make you feel bad, but my '74 Corvette 350 I/SA ran 11.80's @ 110MPH weighting a class weight of 3610#s.
Maybe we can help!
Glenn

[Kilroy]

Do you want a streetable hot rod or do you want a drag car?

Don't matter to me but it seems like you chose your combo for what you knew you were going to use the car for. I think you succeeded. Why change now?

On the other hand if you want to go racing, you need to build a racing combo.

Pick your sacrafices. If you like the road manners of your car then don't change it just to brag about a few seconds.

The only car I've ever been truely scared in as a passenger (I've ridden shotgun in cafe racers etc. and even on the back of a few psycho crotch rocket bikes) was a friend of mine's hoosier sponsered, true low 12 second 67 camaro. Felt like the fucking thing was flying.

[Smokin Joe]

It's more than horsepower, it's the whole combination.
Traction, weight distribution, tire size and pressure, rear ratio and tranny gears all designed to keep the engine in it's powerband as much as possible on the track and put the power thru the tires to the track. Your engine spends much more time climbing to it's HP peak than at that peak during a race. If you're shifting to below the RPM where it makes power, you're wasting time getting back into the power band. Make sense? It's the torque curve and traction that wins races, not the peak HP. Your mother's grocery getter could beat John Force if he spins the tires! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hot Rod To Hell]

[ QUOTE ]
Your mother's grocery getter could beat John Force if he spins the tires!


[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Joe, but I have to disagree. I have seen fuelers smoke the tires all the way down the 1/4 and run 8's! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I see where you're going with it though, and it is a valid point.
Seriously though, there should be a lot of potential in your car if if you can just get the combo optimized. I do not think you would have to sacrafice ANY streetability to gain a ton of performance. We really do need the details on your combo to be any major help though!

[SimonSez]

I plugged a few figures into Quarter Jr ...

1000ft elevation, 104 degrees, barometer 29.8 (guessed this one) and 75% humidity (and this one).

400 Cubes, 400 hp @ 5500, shifting at 6000 rpm, TH400 with 2000 stall speed, 3.25 gears and 30 inch tall tires, 8 inches wide and 2400 lbs.

This combination has the potential to do 12.11 at 119.3 mph (4350 rpm at the finish).

Changing the gears to 4.11 improves it to 11.60 at 121 mph (5590 rpm at the finish).

So sure, it will run faster with some 4.11's, but a big engine in a light car can also go pretty damned quick with highway friendly gears.

[Paul]

13.40 is not slow.

a little tuning, the right gears, get it to hook and I bet you can do better-

that's a given.

but how fast DO you want to go?

12's?, 11's??, 10's??!??

when is it fast enough?

if it were me I'd refine the combo and be happy with 13 flat.

(or 12.9's)

Paul

[FuelFC]

What were the incremental times and MPH? Shift points. Launch RPM. Trap RPM? Etc... If the car doesn't 60' you got nothing. Toss the brick or throw the brick, which goes faster and farther in the same time period? Gears always help, but you need to get to root causes of situation first. Enough fuel volume and pressure, timing, suspension set up (no binding/shaft angle/free movement and full range of motion/right shocks, tire size/pressure, weight transfer, and on and on. Do not spend dime one until the present set up is maximized. It should be a mid 12 car if it is what you say with some very cheap work.

[stan292]

I agree with Ryan on all the points he makes, but as a resident "greybeard"here , I'd have to respectfully caution him about stating he's "spent more time at the dragstrip" than any other HAMBer. More time than any other 28-year-old member maybe!

As someone with more than a 30-year headstart on the young lad, I'm guessing he still has a few (hundred) more visits to the track before his attendance figures catch up with some of the "old timers" here. (-:

All those who talked about getting the right "combination" - and taking care of the little things are absolutely on track. Also, I have to throw in with the group advising a deeper rear end gear. Decide what ratio you think you can live with on the street, and do the tuning and details to suit that gear.

[Rocky]

I was watching my video of your runs last night and you didn't do as bad as you would have yourself believe. After all, a street driven, street geared car turning 13.40's on street tires with 105 degree heat ain't bad at all!
Strip gears, slicks and a super-tune would have your sedan in the 11's easily but! All at the sacrifice of streetability in your street car. Compromise costs tenths. What do you really want? A racer or a street car? After all, you DID drive the car all the way from the east coast, right? Try doing that with a dedicated race car. I agree there's a little more that can be done without loosing too much streetability but how much will you be willing to lose?
All this diatribe coming from the guy turning mid 20's in a wore out Rambler.......

[krupanut]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Ryan on all the points he makes, but as a resident "greybeard"here , I'd have to respectfully caution him about stating he's "spent more time at the dragstrip" than any other HAMBer. More time than any other 28-year-old member maybe!

As someone with more than a 30-year headstart on the young lad, I'm guessing he still has a few (hundred) more visits to the track before his attendance figures catch up with some of the "old timers" here. (-:



[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean time at the strip or time in the drivers seat?

[Scotch]

Okay - 2 points to make.
First- Hey Savage, is your cousin named Robert? Does he have blondish, thinning hair? If so, he owes me money. If not, sorry for the inquiry.

Next - Making a Pontiac sing is not about high rpm horsepower, its about low rpm torque. You should be shifting at 5,500 or so, and you should be running a Ram Air IV cam or a modern copy of it. Go to www.classicalpontiac.com (http://www.classicalpontiac.com) and ask a few questions - the guys there are Poncho experts and will help you out. The 400 Pontiac is a great motor when properly equipped, but you can't build it, run it, or treat it like a small-block Chevy cuz it's a different animal altogether. Launch at low rpm (like 2,000-2,500), shift at 5,500, and you'll pick up some time. Let the grunt of the Poncho pull ya, and don't ask it to wind up real high cuz it loses power up there..which may account for your low trap speeds. Ponchos will earn your love and respect, but you have to treat em' right and run them where they like to make good power.