Old Race Car found. HAMB Historians please help... [Archive]

metalshapes

03-18-2004, 11:06 PM

I hope this is enough of a Hot Rod for me to post about it on the HAMB, but maybe somebody can help me find out more about the history of this car.
I found it on Ebay, hardly anybody was bidding on it and there was no reserve.
All the history I know sofar is that the car was raced in the Boston area in the early '50s, brought to Arizona by the last guy that raced it when he moved.
He started restoring it and then he died.
His widow had everything hauled off and thrown away at the dump.
All that is left is the rolling chassis.
It has a early Ford I beam front suspension with F100 front brakes, an early '50s Ford rear ( it is seized solid, so there is a truck rear end in it now to hold the ass end up ), it had a straight6, and probably a simple flat aluminum body riveted or screwed straight to the frame.
The frame itself is made out of thin wall 1 3/4 round tubing, the roll bars are 1 5/8.
The workmanship on the frame is really nice, who ever built it knew what he was doing. And I would be really surprised if this was the only car he ever built.
The modifications are not that nice, and probably not done by the same person.
The frame seems to be made out of mufflermoly ( exhaust tubing ), but if it is chromemoly, how would I test that?
I am really happy that I was able to buy this car, It fits my tastes so well and it is a perfect stablemate to my other cars.
If any body can help me find out more, or tell me where to look for info, I would really appreciate it.

metalshapes

03-18-2004, 11:07 PM

Front suspension

metalshapes

03-18-2004, 11:08 PM

Mocked up with some parts I had lying around...

Roadsters.com

03-18-2004, 11:31 PM

Muffler tubing will have a seam, unlike chrome-moly, and be more prone to rust.

That roll bar could only be the work of Sir Edward Valentine, who later emigrated to Canada and did the logos for rhe Vancouver-based rock band Heart.

Dave
http://www.roadsters.com/

choprods

03-18-2004, 11:35 PM

That looks like one of those old"build your own roadster" [from plans] in popular Mechanics and some other books in the fifties and sixties....you know what Im talking about?
Maybe more of a "sports car"-than hot rod.....

Unkl Ian

03-18-2004, 11:45 PM

A wonderful piece of history.Too bad we don't know more.

I bet Brock Yates,or Chris Economaki would know this car.
Brock still does work for Speed channel,you could reach Chris through Speed Sport News.

Tman

03-19-2004, 12:04 AM

Any chance the widow or family still has some pics?

Adam F

03-19-2004, 12:07 AM

I have just been reading a book called: American Sports-Racer-From Kurtis to Cobra by Rich Taylor ( which IMHO is a fantastic read and actually does include quite a bit of hot rod relate stuff.)

To me it looks like chassis is a copy of a Devin, but this is just a wild estimation which should be discounted immediately.

One thing that is a FACT is this: I'm jealous as hell!

Moonbeam (http://www.metalshapers.org/nitrogeezers/dean_moon.htm)

Adam F

DrJ

03-19-2004, 12:11 AM

Someone in your Phoenix area posted some pics of some sports cars a few months ago. They were driving and racing them. Weren't much more than what you have plus a nose nad rear and some sheet metal on the sides of the frame.
One of them had the Ford axle modified into a twin I beam setup. I don't remember more than that.

Junkyard Dog 32

03-19-2004, 12:20 AM

METALSHAPES- Is that rearend mounted on top of the rear springs? I'd like to see some detail on that, please.
Great find. It does look like a "build it yourself" chassis.
There's a few like it in the Hot Rod "Spotlite" books from the early 60's.

JOEhttp://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

metalshapes

03-19-2004, 12:30 AM

Roadsters, The roll bars ( hoops ) have a seam in them.
I have not found one in the main tubes yet, there is surface rust but no thin spots or rust through.
Is that the only way to tell?

Choprods, It is no DIY kit.
The welds are absolutly flawless, and I would like to shake the hand of the guy that layed them...
I see this car as equal parts Hot Rod and Sports Car.
Like Allards, Old Yeller and the Eliminator, but maybe not as fancy...

Uncl, Isn't this a great find?
I can't begin to tell you how thrilled I am about owning it.
Would it be hard to get in touch with Brock Yates or Chris Economaki?

Tman, The guy I bought it from is going to try and get the name of the widows husband, through the guy he bought it from.

Adam, A couple of years ago I had a Devon body in my back yard.
I dont think it would fit this frame very well, but I could be wrong...

Doc, That was probably me posting pics of my Mallock...

Junkyard, The rear leafsprings run lengthwise with the axle on top.
It has a trample bar on one side under the spring ( I dont know if there was an other on the other side )
If it needed that, it must have had some decent horsepower...

scarliner

03-19-2004, 05:24 AM

I watched this car sell and could not believe,there was not much interest at all.It really is an unusual set up,and I liked it the minute I saw it.I would say you done alright,and I bet some history will turn up on it.If you get in touch with the original owners wife,bop her upside the head once for me,just for trashing,a very cool piece of history.Good luck with it and by the way loved your top post on the roadster!I had to reply here to that post,so much interest in it,if I tryed replying there,with my slowboy comp-utr I could click on it and go on vacation for two weeks and it might be loaded,when I got home!

Spike!

03-19-2004, 08:01 AM

Very cool Alex! What are your plans for it? I don't think the car could have found a better home as you are a very talented craftsman. Keep us "posted" on the progress!

Spike

tommy

03-19-2004, 08:26 AM

That's a cool piece!! I'm jealous. I want a 50's Detroit powered sports car of some kind. Have you given any thought to building the body? Aluminum?

Are the front radius rods running forward or am I seeing things backwards?

Kevin Lee

03-19-2004, 09:57 AM

I've got nothing constructive to add relating to history - but I just wanted to say that is one cool chassis. Good luck finding out the history.

just steve

03-19-2004, 10:08 AM

Check out this site:

http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/

Old sports car racing, including sports racing specials, and a couple of pages of "mystery cars" that they're trying to identify.

Neat chassis -- I'd be sketching up a body or looking for an old Devin or Bocar body if I were you . . .

Steve.

metalshapes

03-19-2004, 12:16 PM

Scarliner, Wasn't that weird?
It sat at $2.25 for days! I am glad it went up from there, cause I felt guilty enough to the seller, when I picked it up.
Thanks for the complement on the Hardtop.

Spike, my plans are to undo the chassis mods.
The split bones run forward, and are welded to a swaybar as a pivot point.
And one of the X members has been bent out of the way, for a bigger Tranny, or Scattershield. I know some of these cars ended up on the drag strip. ( Didn't they used to have a class for sportscars? ) I know a guy who scored very well a couple of years in his Bocar.
I have a spare unrebuit '57 SBC ( incase I blow the one in the Roadster up...) that is almost a straight bolt in in the Special.
And then put a simple lightweight body on it ( something a lot like my Mallock. )
Unless I find out what it really looked like, then I might have to recreate that...

Tommy, Aluminum body... definitely.
Supposedly that is what it had before.
Yes, the split bones run forward but it is a later mod.

Grim, Ain't It cool?

Steve, thanks for the site.
I have thought about building something nice and swoopy for it, but right now simple and light weight is winning.

Thanks for the help sofar guys.
If anybody has anything more, please let me know.
I will keep you posted on any progress...

SamIyam

03-19-2004, 01:39 PM

I have an old Hot Rod Magazien from the 60's that has a few modified sports cars with Chevy v8's in them...
In fact, one of them reminds me a lot of your frame there.

I'm just guessing, but I believe it is on of my Hot Rod Yearbooks... there was like a Bug Eye'd Sprite with a Chevy v8 and some other cars...

I'll look and let you know... but I think you got something cool there!

Sam.

Junkyard Dog 32

03-19-2004, 01:59 PM

Should we assume, from the double roll bar, that it was a two seater?

Are there tabs or mounts where the body bolted up?

JOEhttp://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

safariknut

03-19-2004, 02:15 PM

There are a couple of guys in the Boston area who might know:one is Ken Duclos who ran K-D engineering and the other would be Peter Sefferian(sp)who has a car dealership(Sefferian Motors in Cambridge I think).Both were into sports car racing back then.Sorry I don't have their numbers anymore.
Ray

Unkl Ian

03-19-2004, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be hard to get in touch with Brock Yates or Chris Economaki?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Speedvision didn't have the absolute slowest Fucking website I have ever seen,
I would look there for an E-mail address.
He used to write for Car and Driver,I think the same guy does their web site too. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

metalshapes

03-20-2004, 01:05 AM

Sam, if you could find it, that would be great.

Junkyard, yes, its a two seater.
I looked at it some more today, and it looks like the rollbars were put on later. But maybe not by the same weder that did the suspension mods.
There are seat belt tabs behind where the pass seat would be, and there used to be some at the driver side too, but they were ground off ( Maybe it was about to be upgraded ).
There are no tabs or brackets for any body work, but there are small holes drilled in the frame, spaced about 8" apart ( some are 4" apart ),
So I guess the aluminum was riveted or screwed straight to the tubes, and it must have been fairly thick to be able to space them that far apart.

Safari, I will try and track them down, so I can contact them.

Uncl, I will try and find that adress.

Thanks again all.

Tman

03-20-2004, 02:35 AM

HR Yearbook #1 has a Bug Eye in it, I see no car like yours. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Hackerbilt

03-21-2004, 12:20 AM

Now whats this doing way back on page 3? Oh no....that will never do!
Alex...more pictures, info and the buildup. PLEASE!

NOT a Hot Rod? Oh yes it is! Just the EUROPEAN version.
That thing would spank a buckets ASS...and its made from muffler tube...and powered by aa early small block! DAMN!
THATS a hot Rod folks.

Bill

metalshapes

03-21-2004, 01:57 AM

Hey Hackerbill,
I thought you might like it.
I am going to have some fun with this one...
Whoever built it had some experience or some good cars to look at.
It looks like a simple machine, but it has some good tricks done to it, like offsetting the engine and gearbox away from the driver to even out the wheel weights...
It seems to be built when the school of thought was Flexible frame and Rock hard suspension, I'll find out what that was like.
One thing is for sure, it seems to be made for high speed powerslides. And since I like doing those, chances are good that this puppy will travel sideways again! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BTW, I think this is probably an American built machine, with just enough European influence to give the Imports a hard time...
But we will know for sure if and when we can find some more History...

Lowlife

03-21-2004, 12:41 PM

metalshapes,when I saw that frame,my first thought was this little jewel that Dick Kraft built,more hot rod than sportsrod.

Lowlife

03-21-2004, 12:43 PM

Here's the frame.

Lowlife

03-21-2004, 12:48 PM

Then you stated you'd probably keep the bodywork simple and these came to mind.Ted Cannon's,circa '51.

Lowlife

03-21-2004, 12:52 PM

Dick Seifried's from '51.Can't wait to see how this turns out,I'm sure you'll do it right!Hope someone comes up with some history on your car.

metalshapes

03-21-2004, 02:15 PM

Thank you Lowlife, those last 2 pics are a lot like what I have in mind.
But maybe with fenders like Ken Miles' MG Special " the shingle"

Hackerbilt

03-21-2004, 05:27 PM

Man, I hope some good info comes your way on this little weapon! Sure would be nice to see it in action way back then. Glad a guy with a clear vision ended up buying it or it may have become a...dune buggy or worse! These cars are an almost forgotten segment of Hot Rod history that COULD be more fun than just about any other body style IMHO.

An honest to god SPECIAL...not a Modified (Although I love them too!) or a bucket but a hand fabbed backyard, corner burnin' Racecar! WITH licence plates, if you want!
It'd be going on the street if I had it...but SOLO would be almost as good with a little less hassle...
Damn! The MALLOCK...the Roadster...now this?
I think that much fun for one guy should be outlawed you lucky dawg! Hahaha

This is an incredible vehicle for new NOSTALGIC tech articles too.
EG..That chassis, with just a few diagonals added, would have torsional and beam rigidity that a ladder frame could only dream of...yet its made from cheap, easily welded thin wall tube! Best part is you can make them accurately by using a "plywood bulkhead" building form that you cut apart later to remove...and just think of the safety you have sitting down inside that frame compared to a flimsy T bucket body... These are seriously capable vehicles folks!
Gonna watch this REAL close!

Keep us posted Alex. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bill

Matty Dog

04-25-2007, 07:30 PM

Pure Hell

04-25-2007, 07:56 PM

I've been wondering the same thing ... Haven't seen much since looking at the Ol' Yeller / Lion's special over lays ...

Love to know what she is ... and how the build is going ....

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 08:08 PM

I know dragging up old posts from the past is frowned upon, but I was wondering if there was a part 2 to this story....

Alex, did you find out any more history?
Has any progress been made in bringing it back to life?

Man, I thought I'd have it on the road by now...

But I keep finding out more about it, and every time I'm happy I havent started yet.

This is the history as far as I can tell ( with the help of Race Car Historians that have really helped me a lot.)

Dick Morgensen built a Plymouth powered Special in 1954.
He later swapped a Nailhead into it, and after Margaret Pritchard crashed it ( She died in the crash ), the car went to Max Balchowski.
That Car became Old Yeller #1.

That is not my car...

My car was also built by Morgensen and Boyd Hough ( a fabricator who was famous for his welding ), and at about the same time.

The car was raced by Tracy Bird ( who later became one of the organisers of the SCCA in the southwest )
He entered the car as a Mercedes, because it had a straight 6 out of a Adenauer Mercedes Benz in it.
The car was two tone Purple & Black.

Later the car showed up in a ad in MotoRacing.

MotoRacing August 23-30, 1957 pg 11
Vol. 2 - No.22
Sacrifice $1350 DM Special ready to race.
Sister to Morgensen's special. Running
Mercedes 300S engine & 4 sp box. Class
winner. Plenty of room for a big V-8.
Lots of spares. Open to offers.
Dave Crane 3302 East Montevista,
Phoenix, Ariz.
BRidge 5-3215

What happened to it after that, I still dont know...

But it did get a V8 at some point because some of the Chassis tubes are modified.

So I plan to restore it with a Nailhead mated to a Jag XK120 gearbox, because that is what the sistercar had ( the '54 Morgensen Spl, which later bacame OY 1)
And the same group of guys also built a Drag race Special ( there was a class for Sportscars back then ) which I'm told, also had a Jag gearbox

I'm still trying to find good pics of the car, and sofar I've only found one ( not good enough quality to post)

If anybody can help me with more Info, I would really appriciate it....

Attached pic is of the Drag Car...

Rootie Kazoootie

04-25-2007, 08:13 PM

I know dragging up old posts from the past is frowned upon, but I was wondering if there was a part 2 to this story....

Alex, did you find out any more history?
Has any progress been made in bringing it back to life?

Let em frown, I wasn't aware of this post but it's interesting.

Obviously not the same chassis but quite similar, I wonder if this was the inspiration. HRM 11-62

29bowtie

04-25-2007, 08:22 PM

Thanks for bringing up this old thread,very interesting.Seeing that it originated in the Boston area,i'll check through some photos my dad has from Watkins Glen opening weekend.You never know?

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 08:30 PM

Thanks for bringing up this old thread,very interesting.Seeing that it originated in the Boston area,i'll check through some photos my dad has from Watkins Glen opening weekend.You never know?

No, it didn't originate there.

It was built in the Phoenix area ( where I found it ).

The guy I bought it from said that it had been in the Boston area.
This may be good info, or maybe its not...

I've tried several times for him to get me in touch with the guy he got it from, but he doesnt seem to be interested.

I even offered to pay him for his time and/or for the info...

Also, I reread my old post...
The Chassis is not Muffler Moly.

Its Chromemoly, Gaswelded together by Boyd Hough...

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 08:38 PM

If it was in the Boston area, it must have been brought back later
( maybe by somebody that lived in the Phoenix area earlyer )

If you have a chance to look at old Photo's
it would have looked a lot like the '54 Morgensen Special in its earlyest versions.

Cycle front fenders, bobbed Chevy Truck rear fenders, headlights in the grille ( the mounts for those are still on the Chassis...)

Attached pic is of the '54 Morgensen Special...

Pure Hell

04-25-2007, 08:38 PM

Man am I jealous !...cool,cool, cool ....

Great that you have found that much history .. Saw you had it on Tam's site..
I 'll keep my eyes open as I cruz all my old mags ...

I found my "starter" Special .. 55' ish Victress C-3 roadster on a 120 Jag chassis ... Don't have any history, other than it was "suppose " to have had track time ?? .. even still, I can't wait to get her on the tarmac .... shooting for next year...

Mule Farmer

04-25-2007, 08:43 PM

Very cool

When you do get started dont forget to keep us posted.

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 08:51 PM

Very cool

When you do get started dont forget to keep us posted.

Absolutely...

When I start working on it, I'll post all the progress.

Here is a link to Tams Old Racecar site.

Its on the mystery car page...

http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/AlexMorgSpecial1.html

Matty Dog

04-25-2007, 08:51 PM

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 08:56 PM

A Nailhead is all very well, but how cool and unique would it be to find an old 300 Benz motor and box and tweak it up a bit...
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stuartlamb/MB300/images/enginerestoration/engsun.jpg

There were over 12,000 of the W186, W188 and W189 cars built between 1951 and 1952, so maybe finding one wouldn't be as hard as you might think.
[Bracing myself for a flaming!]

yeah, I have thought about doing that...

But it would be a much more expensive engine to race ( 'cause this car needs to get back on the Track...:D )
From what I've heard about it, it was heavy and down on power.

The Nailhead seems like a good choice, because thats what was in the Sistercar ( before that one was converted to a SBC...)

Pure Hell

04-25-2007, 09:08 PM

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 10:06 PM

That would be slick to run the MB ... but the Buick could be spendie enough ..

I had thought of something more "interesting" .. but Dollar to HP/weight I think I'll stick with the small block that's in her .. for now ...

I put a mock up SBC engine in it before I knew what it was.

I have a Nailhead for it now...
And a 6 deuce intake ( six 97's are going to be pretty expensive...),
and a Cook Adaptor to mount a Chevy tranny ( I will probably have to modify that for a Jag Tranny.)
I got a radiator out of a early '50s Chevy and its a perfect fit ,
a nice old 4 spoke steering wheel,
King Bee headlights, the same taillights as Morgensen used on the '54,
Chevy Truck rear fenders,etc...

A lot of HAMBers have helped me with parts already...

1950ChevySuburban

04-25-2007, 10:25 PM

I just found this thread........... wow! What a find, and digging thru all that history is, for me, quite fascinating!
I certainly don't have any info on this chassis, but looking forward to your progress!

Maybe see you at Wild West March 3rd for the open house deal? I'll be dropping the '50 off to get painted that afternoon. ( There's food involved, you know I'm there! )

1950ChevySuburban

04-25-2007, 10:27 PM

You know, chalk this up to pure ignornance on my part, but looking at the old pics, I can't help but wonder if this car may have raced with Jim Hall's Chapparals years ago?

Pure Hell

04-25-2007, 10:31 PM

Man that will be a great combo ... should run like hell ...
Since I don't have a firm history ... I'm going to run in that 55' ta 60' era .. think thats were mine was run ...
283 w/ Hilborn and a mag, T-10, Jag rear end and hunt a quick change down the road ....

metalshapes

04-25-2007, 10:37 PM

283 w/ Hilborn and a mag, T-10, Jag rear end and hunt a quick change down the road ....

Cool...

Lets get these cars on the track, and we'll race...:D

BTW, I hope you'll post about your build on the HAMB as well...

pasadenahotrod

04-25-2007, 10:49 PM

These cars were called "Specials" in their day. There is a Trend or Fawcett one-shot which is all about Specials from all over the country.

Steve 38

04-26-2007, 12:04 AM

Alex, do you have Vintage Motorsport magazine #5 1992? It has a two page spread on the Morgensen Special, with 3 good pics.

metalshapes

04-26-2007, 12:09 AM

Alex, do you have Vintage Motorsport magazine #5 1992? It has a two page spread on the Morgensen Special, with 3 good pics.

No, I dont have that one.

But I have the Road Racing Specials book by Vintage Motorsport.

Might be the same, but I'll go look for that issue to be sure...

Thanks for the info.

Steve 38

04-26-2007, 02:01 AM

It might be the same thing, if VM released it. This was a special, run over several issues called Road Racing Specials, and written by Dean Batchelor. Covered all the low volume specials from the '50s through to the Cobra Daytona's, including Ol' Yellers, Cunninghams, Ken Miles specials, Scarabs etc etc, and all the lesser knowns. My scanner has dropped dead on me, but I'll purchase another one soon, so can scan it for you if needed.

VonMoldy

04-26-2007, 03:05 AM

man those cars look fun!

mustangsix

04-26-2007, 07:33 AM

Those fifties specials, along with the English Lotus Seven provided a lot of my inspiration.

I second finding a Benz engine, but a near visual duplicate is the Datsun 240-260-280Z inline six. I think the Datsun engineers must have dissected more than a few Mercedes powerplants.

hibbyjr53

04-26-2007, 08:10 AM

I think there is a vintage branch of the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) some of the "historians" there may be of help. I'll throw the name Allard into the guessing pot.

palosfv3

04-26-2007, 08:38 AM

These threads are the type that make this forum great. Have you checked the Vintage sports car drivers association web site and links page?http://www.vscda.org/links.html . I've hung out at some events and the knowledge of the history exists within these people.
Did you ever make contact with Economacki or Yates? Best of luck on your project.

flt-blk

04-26-2007, 10:22 AM

:eek: :D If you're still using the 9" I sold you in this car, I think that means I
get the first burnout.. :eek: :D :D :D

73roundlight

04-26-2007, 10:51 AM

I think that it is a build it yourself frame too, the alot of Devin sports cars were on this type of frame. A guy in Deleware made a car called the D-Mar and its frame is very much like this - except narrowed. It runs a 57 or 58 Corvette mill in it, a totally awsome car.

I know they used to sell a car body like this to drag with too, I think there were some pics in RJ a couple issues ago (I'd know which one but I don't have them at work).

Good luck with it! I'm jealous too. You could also do something like the old Kurtis cars that could be cool.

Best.