Pre-unit or Unit' Triumph motors... that is the question...

[SamIyam]

So besides one being older and one being newer... what is the difference?

Cost?
Upkeep?
Resale?
value?
Desireability?
Aesthetics?

If you can compare it to something in the hot rod relm... I will probably understand... is it kind of like the difference between say a newer caddy motor and an older early caddy? You can have a bitchen' car no matter which motor you put in it... but having that early Cad is just the icing on the cake...

If you saw a spot on Triumph... with a Unit motor in it... would you say "man, that would be cooler if it had a pre-unit in it" or are bike guys that picky?

Thanks guys,
Sam.

[justinm]

contact this guy
Mean Marshall's Motorcycles
1714 16th St, Oakland, CA 94607
Phone: (510) 834-6335

he's been dealing with british bikes for a long time.
where's Ward?- he might have an opinion also.

[ELpolacko]

Sammy, the pre-units are much cooler 'cause the're older and more rare. Basicly from the dawn of time to 1962 you could get you Triumph with the engine and trans separate ,like the Harley stuff, save for the Cubs and some of the 500's. There is a great interchangeablilty of parts between the two so there really is no performance advantage.

My bike is a 1957 T110 wich means it is a pre-unit swing arm bike in 650 form. The later T120s are Bonnevilles and came with two carbs instead of one. Some of the later bikes or ones specially ordered with them had alternators. Much better for charging, my generator cost me upwards of $500 to convert to 12V and that lets me use a very powerfull incandesent sealed beam headlight. Anything more I will overload the gernerator and fry out annother $250 armature. Other than that there really isn't any reliability advantage either way.


I can ride my bike nearly every day of the week and do little or nothing to it. I have taken it on fairly long rides, up to 200 miles a day. It's reasonably quick but not real fast and is a hell of a lot of fun to flick around corners. Honestly since I sorted out the front suspension and brake it can corner nearly as hard as a modern sport/touring bike.


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DrJ]

...are bike guys that picky?

...



Some "Harley guys" will say "That's not a "real" Harley, about a Sportster.
Yes some can be that picky.
If you give a shit what some of "them" think you won't have any fun, unless you let "them" sit by your side while you build "their" bike.

[SamIyam]

I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that Dr.J ... my point was simply to find out which engine is more desireable... desireability is determined by what "people think"... mainly the people who are into bikes... or "bike guys" determine what is desireable...

I know what I want... and I know enough to know that you will sink the same amount of money into either bike building it... so if the difference is just the initial cost of the core... why go with the lesser...

Sam.

[DrJ]

I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that Dr.J ... my point was simply to find out which engine is more desireable... desireability is determined by what "people think"... mainly the people who are into bikes... or "bike guys" determine what is desireable...

I know what I want... and I know enough to know that you will sink the same amount of money into either bike building it... so if the difference is just the initial cost of the core... why go with the lesser...

Sam.



Yep, I was sorta beating around that same bush...
So, you ain't gonna be building any four door customs any time soon Eh Sam? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gettingreasy]

You gonna build a bike Sam? A freind and me were talkin about building a 60's Triumph alky drag bike, but the engine we wanted got sold from out under us.
-Jesse

[The Blownranger]

Unit all the way! 69/70 Best.Trumphs improved a little
every year till 70.That was the pinnucle.
OIF is OK if you use a custom frame,Chopper/bobber/street tracker. 750/5 speed.

OT..They had a neat late model Trumpet in the movie,"How To
Lose A Man In 10 Days".(not a movie I`d rent,wife did)
Silver Bonneville with aftermarket seat and mild customizing.
It was the first Hinckley Triumph That I liked.

JR...

[SamIyam]

I have quite a few irons in the fire now... but as soon as they are done (in about a year) I'm going to get started on one.
My good buddy Tims' brothers own a Motorcycle repair shop and they build Triumphs, cervice them, along with other Brit' bikes... and a few Indians and Hogs thrown in the mix... they used to flat track and they have all thier original bikes they used to race... it's a neat shop with a lot of history... so after seeing Weesners rendition of a bob'... I fell in love like the rest of you'all... and then started to let Tim's bros. know what I wanted... yesterday Shon took me in the back container and showed me a pile of parts that I could have for what he bought them for... and he'll keep them there until I pay for it all... so with their help... I should be able to put together something really reasonably... Shaan also just picked up a pre unit '51 bobber that I spewed all over... he bought it from a friend, so it is a keeper (can't turn around and sell stuff you bought from friends)... but man-o-man was it bitchen!

Anyway, the pile of parts is an old back halved bob' with a king and queen seat, and all the parts to make a complete bike... I have a seat, I want to get a 21" front wheel... it has a peanut style tank (kinda long) and a Unit motor with dual carbs... plans are to hack the back of the bike off and go all new construction on the rear and get rid of the mast (whatever that pole under the seat is), move the rear wheel forward a tad, get it togetether and then have fun! Sean feels confident that I can have a whole lot of fun for under $1500... and then go on from there...

So, I'm looking for a 21" wheel, some drag bars, and a rear fender... the rest I think is there...

when finished, I'll ride it and get some experience... and then blow it apart for chrome and paint... should be fun!
Sam.

[SamIyam]

ElP'... how is the little chopper coming along that you were messing around with the last time I was at your shop? Any new developments?

Also, on the pre-units... did they all come with magnetos?
Are magnetos for either a unit or pre-unit getting so high priced that one can't afford them?
I'm kinda wanting to eliminate the battery... Sean said that they sell a kit that goes inside the motor, where I don't know, that will keep the points lit... but he said they do not put out a ton of amperage...

What does a pre-unit motor and trans sell for money wise?

Sam.

[58villager]

Brittish Cycle Supply has a kit that works without a battery.Keeping the points lit is about all it does. When you pull up to a light at night it gets real dark real fast.You have to keep the "R's" up to keep the lights on.If you like the pipes I like and have the law enforcement Greenhorns we have it's not a good idea.Running a MityMax is almost as good as real Lucas Electrics."The Prince of Darkness"

[48_HEMI]

Sam I had a 1959 Triumph T-120 Bonniville in 1959. It was the first year Bonniville and the last year for the separate trans.
My thought when the 60 bonnivilles came out was
!. they have less places to leak http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
looking back the 59 was the only year for the pre-unit with dual carbs I guess that would make it rare and desireable, If you have big bucks I know where you can buy a brand new one in the crate http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SamIyam]

Ok Oldcarglassdude... send me a PM and spill the beans... price and all, don't hold back. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also really appreciate all your guyses help... this is new water to me... and I want to do it as right as a can for a newbie (some of the car parts scrounging skills are the same for bikes)

Lets keep the discussion going!
Sam.

[Zor]

if your buildin' a chopper or bobber, pre-unit is WAY cooler. and like was said earlier greater interchangeability of parts. but really it is not a devastating thing to have a unit brit motor. especially since the pre-units are geeting harder to come by.

[SamIyam]

Yea... that's why I was REALLY drooling over the one he picked up from a friend... the bike was a complete '51 frame, motor, trans, magneto, sprung rear hub (yuck!), drpped bars, newer '63-? tank, beeotch seat... single carb head... and it could be a runner in a weekend... all for $1000! But he said it was worth a considerable amount more... but like I said... it was a friend to a friend deal...

[ray]

zor, you're just saying that cause i wouldn't let you ride mine at the drags!

modern electrics all the way.

sam, you mentioned shortening the rear?? that sounds strange.

weezs rendition sux! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gettingreasy]

Ya shortening the rear? They are relativly short to begin with, and you sit aways back to, makes for mighty fine wheelies tho http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I still like my '71(ya an OIF), it's a great bike reliable to(I'm not shitten ya). www.britcycle.com (http://www.britcycle.com) is the best for pats and shit, they got everything! So the shop yor talking about, is it Raber's buy any chance?
-Jesse

[ELpolacko]

[ QUOTE ]
59 was the only year for the pre-unit with dual carbs

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to rain on your parade man, pre-unit Triumphs were made all the way up to 1962, dual carb Bonnies too! I have seen complete engines that need to be rebuilt going for $100-$500 depending on condition. I would assume a complete engine, carbs, mag (either the competition or regular), trans, levers and kicker, complete primary etc. Brand new in the crate and in perfect conditon to go for less than $2g.

[ELpolacko]

Sammy that bike for a grand is a decent deal.

There were several ignintion options for the pre units than unit motors. I run a K2FC Lucas Competition Magneto on my 1957 and it has been really reliable. The only problem I ever had was the small bellvue spring clip that holds the points onto the rocker shaft came off and so did the points. I threaded the shaft and locktighted a nut on the end and have put several thousand miles on it since.

My bike has a later tank also with a hand made parcel grid, Bates racing fenders that have been cut and widened through the rib to look like the factory units, just thinner. I picked up a belt primary/dry clutch from Map Cycle (http://www.mapcycle.com) and will put it on in a few. They sent me the wrong belt (too short) and refused to make it right, but they did say I could return it for a full refund. Instead I went to an Industrial supply place and bought a new Gates Powergrip 8mgt belt just like the one they supplied in the kit only five teeth longer for $30. The only other nagging problem I have it the seal on the generator is kaput and leaks. If I seal that up this thing would not leak!

Sprung hubs are fairly cool if you end up with an early rigid frame bike like a Speed Twin. Dangerous as fuck to take apart but mighty cool for the right bobber look on a late forties brit bike.

heres a couple links for ya:

http://www.britbike.com they have a great HAMB like message board

http://www.hackasaw.com I know the guy is weird sumbitch but he knows his shit

http://www.motorcyclebooks.com/triumrepmanb.html you are going to need a manual for this thing

http://www.ace-cafe-london.com/ and when your all done you will need a good place to relax and enjoy your efforts!

Cheers !!! http://www.guinness.com/vgn/images/portal/cit_125958/1445891932a_bp.jpg

[48_HEMI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
59 was the only year for the pre-unit with dual carbs

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to rain on your parade man, pre-unit Triumphs were made all the way up to 1962, dual carb Bonnies too! I have seen complete engines that need to be rebuilt going for $100-$500 depending on condition. I would assume a complete engine, carbs, mag (either the competition or regular), trans, levers and kicker, complete primary etc. Brand new in the crate and in perfect conditon to go for less than $2g.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I live in oregon a little rain never hurts, I am not a triumph expert but I know for a fact that 1960 triumphs were a unit and seem to remember that they went back for a couple years and 63 was a unit.
MASON MOTORS in Pasadena was my local shop and the sales pitch on the 60 was unitised motor and trans, I was almost talked into buying one for that reason, I rode one and liked mine better, then went into the Navy in feb.1960 and was away from bikes for nine years then rode for 5 years till I wrapped a leg arround my head and haven't walked the same since 1974.

as for the crate motors there is a shop in Portland that bought up all the Triumph Parts available when they stopped importing them to the U.S. a few years ago they sold a couple million in parts back to england but he has told me that he can build me any year and color Triumph out of brand new parts for around $20,000 so I don't think he's letting those new crate motors go for $2,000 if you still want a phone number for "The Sandy Bandit" let me know he's pretty anti-social and doesn't take any B.S. calls. but he's getting old and when he dies the kids will probably unload everything cheap.
he also has a ton of brand new 70's CZ dirt bikes that I wouldn't mind having for a wall hanger in my shop! I've never ridden one but they were very competetive in the 60's and early 70's when I was a factory rider for Greeves most of you know that they all went down the same road as the Hodaka,Bultaco,Montessa. about the same time that Sachs and KTM changed there names.
My first bike was a 59 Bonniville, after that I had a 65 BSA lightening beautiful bike, 58 Gold Star, 51 GS80 Matchless, then a couple jap dirt bikes and then got a 380 Greeves and did pretty good when it stayed together 73 got a sponsored ride from Greeves with the new 380 Q.U.B. had 1 ride on a factory works Kawasaki and turned them down and bought my own bike for the 74 season. been back into cars since.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Triumphchop]

Sam, I'd stick with the unit as they are easier to get parts for. have design improvements over the pre-units, and can probably be pushed harder and longer than a pre-unit. Having said that I love the looks of a pre-unit ridgid and would love to add one to my garage. If the 51 is all there and pretty much the way you want it go for it . Sounds like you have alot of help right there at the shop you are getting it from.

Word of advice stay away from Marshall in Chicago. Check out Triumphchoppers.com or the Triumph-Twins group on Yahoo for some feed back on Mr. Marshall.

The others suggested are OK also check Berniervintage.com have delt with him for 15+ years and have always been treated fair.

Mags are available from Joe Hunt for the unit as well as the pre-unit. The stock Lucas mag can be made dependable but the cond. is inside the armature and can give problems.

You can run with out a battery using a Tympanium which is a rectifier/regulator. Adding a "blue can" capacitor will help keep your lights from dimming at a stop and help start easier.

Had posted a pic of my yellow 69 when fisrt found this forum. Stock frame with a bolt on hard tail 2' under front end. Keeps it low. The bolt ons give you a little more length where the stock 51 frame is shorterbetween the seat and the rear wheel. The length lets you get the seat down and lets you stretch out some. Depends on how tall you are I guess.

Went on too much allready but you can build on cheap and when you are done you'll get more attention at your next cruise than some guy on his 25K HD. Yes you will!

Jim

[Triumphchop]

oldcarglassguy, the 650's were pre-unit until 63. 63 being the first unit. In 60 the 500's and 350's went to the unit construction but the 650's did not until 63.

Jim

[slingshot]

Go ahead snicker at a spring hub rear.They work very well at keeping your kidneys where God intended.I rode only one Limey bike (for a short while), I discovered that I didn't like screeching to a halt when I only wanted to shift down!!
Mine was a BSA Thunderbolt rigid, with a Honda disc brake fork. My mind is "made in USA" I could remember to shift up but cruising down the road and wanting to set up for a turn, why I, tried to shift down and touch a little brake, YOU can imagine what mayhem occured, I slammed on the brakes THEN down shifted W/O using a clutch, .... Drove it verry carefully home and SOLD it. Got back on a Harley, At least THERE the controls are where they're supposed to be!

[ELpolacko]

Only Tiger Cubs and 500s were unit engines then. Trophy (TR6 and Bonnivilles were still pre-unit up to 1962. Really!

In fact the Bonnies started in 1958, this guy has one! (http://toogood.org/pages/motorcycles.htm) And the head I have on my bike is from one of these rare 1958 Bonnies, it has two sets of intake manifold castings on them for single or dual carbs.

Meridian timeling (http://www.tower.org/museum/triumph/triumph.html)

not really clear, but for those that don't know it is interesting.

here are a couple books noting the history of Triumph models

http://www.britishonly.com/estore/categories/books/all.asp?whichpage=71&pagesize=5

[ELpolacko]

If that dude can sell stock NOS Triumphs for 20grand more power to him, I would rather this guy build me a 20g bike though, Dresda (http://www.dresda.co.uk/index.asp)

[SamIyam]

Thanks guys!

As far as "shortening the rear"... the frame I'm getting has a bolt on rear section and a mast (?) in the center... just like our fellow HAMBers bike... here:

[SamIyam]

I know you can get the seat lower and have more of a stretched out look... but I'm kinda going for the earlier drag bike look of this one:

[SamIyam]

But I don't want to go with ape-hangers and a tall wheel and have the thing super short like this one:

[ray]

learn what "whitworth" and "cei" mean if you don't already know.

something like a 4 over rear frame might be right for you sam, i think mine is like 6 over, i'm about 5'11". your main consideration shoud be seating position. IMO a hardtail just don't seem right with stock position controls, forward controls are a must for me. see the pic.

fwiw i think there are LOTS of people with LOTS of N.O.S. brit parts warehoused.

and DO THEY GET ATTENTION! but some of the wrong kind too. after a labor day run, a much older buddies bike was nabbed from his locked shed, "an" investigation seems to have turned up that a notorious bike gang is behind the disappearance, and now there are eyes on mine and the other limey we were riding with! this from a source that "knows". shit can get real serious in a hurry.

[El Caballo]

Olglasseyeball,

[ QUOTE ]
then rode for 5 years till I wrapped a leg arround my head and haven't walked the same since 1974.


[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like quite a romp...what was her name? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TWO]

500 twins went unit in '58. Dual and single carb heads can be swapped so it really doesn't matter if you want a dual carb pre unit.

I think there are far too few rigids with mid controls. That orange one is perfect.

[yorgatron]

ok,so after your endless yammering about sbc and reliability yada yada yada,you're now getting a triumph? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha welcome to the world of Lucas electrics and Amal carburetors hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[OLLIN]

Yea... that's why I was REALLY drooling over the one he picked up from a friend... the bike was a complete '51 frame, motor, trans, magneto, sprung rear hub (yuck!), drpped bars, newer '63-? tank, beeotch seat... single carb head... and it could be a runner in a weekend... all for $1000! But he said it was worth a considerable amount more... but like I said... it was a friend to a friend deal...

Post some pix man! sounds cool...
here's an old shitty pic of my 51 t100 bobber basket case. My pops bought it in the 60's as a total basket case and I have been collecting parts for a few years now. Im getting pretty close now...
http://myspace-184.vo.llnwd.net/00322/48/15/322595184_l.jpg

[skipstitch]

... just so I can read this later in my subscribed threads...:)

[SamIyam]

Wow!

This is an oldie!

I still got the flame... I pieced the thing together... and ended up settling on a pre-unit.... I have one bought, just need to go get it at my buddies house!

Here's a pic of the parts I have... The bike I bought is complete... so I'll use the motor/frame forks etc... and the rear rigid section that is in this parts pile!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/SamStrube/MrBob2-1.jpg