600 hp. Flathead ! Impossible?

[timebandit]

A friend of mine is building a flatty for a client. The goal is a 600 hp sidevalve. Impossible?
They plan to reverse the induction system. The exhaust will go out of the intake ports, and the fuelmix will go in through the exhaust port. Ever heard of a similar setup?

Included is a billet steel crank, custom grind reversed cam,
massive billet steel support around the bottom of the block/ crank bearings. And twin Procharger centrifugal compressors together with full electronic fuel injection / ignition.
Not exactly traditional...

[burndup]

Sounds like a bored rich person.... kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and WHEN it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich I may be someday, I'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... and I dont think I could possibly EVER get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

[Machinos]

Well, I don't know anything about flatheads, but there is this...

http://www.flatheadjack.com/racing/article.html

That's 1,000hp with TWO flatheads, and running on nitromethane

[timebandit]

Naw. I think you got it wrong. Theese guys has been hard workin hot rodders for decades. They build this beast just for the fact to see if they can get it run. They intend to stuff it in a drop tank and race it a B-ville.

[Stovebolt]

dunno about the real numbers - But I'd imagine it would take over 600 hp to push a streamilner over 300 mph, so its more than likely achieveable.

[side_valve]

Check these links out. The upside down, backwards running V8-60 is very cool tech. (and cheap).

http://www.autohistory.org/feature_1.html

http://www.flatfire.com/flatfire_specs.htm

[Bruce Lancaster]

Anybody have the "World's most powerful flathead" issue of R&C nearby? I seem to remember a dyno number over 500...I think that issue was about 1955...I'm at work, in a library that prefers "Theologische Geschicte" to R&C. No accounting for tastes.
That was blown and on fuel.

[286merc]

Flatfire is around 800 hp if I remember but they have more than one engine to run the salt.
Tell your friends they better build 3-4 since they will get used up real fast.

Figure on a Million $$ if you expect to go heads up with Flatfire.

[Digger_Dave]

Flatfire set the record for the Worlds Fastest Flathead; 302+ MPH

The Landy boys built the engine(s) and Ron Mains drove.

[swissmike]

I talked to a 80+ year old guy at the Zephyrhills dirt track the other day who was standing beside a track car supposedly first built by him in the late 30s. The car was awork of art! It also had a V8-60 with the intake / exhaust switch conversion. Everything beautifully done in stainless steel! Too bad I didn't have my camera on me.

[av8]

This reverse-flow flathead, from the early '50s, was featured in Hot Rod magazine and in the HRM 1954 annual. I've always thought the speed figure was suspect, but no matter; if the congiguration had great potential it would have been widely adopted. It certainly doesn't pose any fabrication problems.

The long, uneven-length exhaust runners seem problematic, plus they're "pre-heated" by the cooling system which would degrade intake-charge density. Add to this the heat added by a supercharger. You could add an intercooler, of course, but it would further add to the length of the intake runners.

Just my two-cents worth . . .

[av8]

FWIW, this is the car the reverse-flow flathead was installed in.

[plan9]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a bored rich person.... kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and WHEN it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich I may be someday, I'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... and I dont think I could possibly EVER get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

[/ QUOTE ]

if youre gonna frag something, do it with a bang... and in the quest for power

600hp can be easily had through a modern engine... doing so while being clever with an obsolete design is part of what this shit is aboot. id happily thrash an expensive motor trying new things... if i could afford it...

if you jam a rodent up your butt, ill give you 100 bucks..uh--huhuhuh-huuhuhuh

[porknbeaner]

I don't know that you can get 600hp out of a flathead but I have seen several that breathed backwards (IE through the exhaust ports). Its an old speed trick. I don't know if they ran any better, but you can get the induction out in the breeze and completely away from engine heat. In theory colder air denser fuel charge= more zot. I imagine that there is someone that will say that they breath better and probably some proof of that, but I just don't know.

When I was little and someone would come into the Ol' Man's shop and want something really off the wall for the "race car" he would always tell them this, "Speed costs money, how fast do ya wanna go?"

I suppose anything can be done.

[Smokin Joe]

Most of the classes at Bonneville are all about squeezing more out of old stuff. Otherwise there'd only be 1 class. Most HP in lightest car that can get traction. I like the Star Trek approach. To boldly go where no flathead has gone before! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TV]

The problem isn't getting 600hp, the real problem is making the engine run for any length of time.Steel caps and girdles will keep it togeather for a while at 400 to 450 for short flogs. It's almost like asking a bicycle to run a Harley engine.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[timebandit]

Thanks for the replies. It was the backwards system I was the most curious about.
I might ad that the pro engine builder is a very talented guy. I belive he was european pro stock champ about5 years in a row some time back.
Yes and they have done impossible things before. I remember
they built a streetable vw flat four for themself with 450 honest hp in it.
He could cruise around town all night long and it purred like a kitten. But man when he hit the pedal, the thing just exploded. I think he spent about $20k in parts for the engine alone. And when I asked why he spent so much of his hard earned money on an beetle, he just told me because he just had to see if it was possible. That was about 10 years ago and the car is still running stronger than any production car made to date.
Yes I know a bit OT but the point is you cant talk common sense to a Hot rodder. Its all about passion.

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
........ but the point is you cant talk common sense to a Hot rodder. Its all about passion.

[/ QUOTE ]

And don't forget DETERMINATION!

Talking with the Flatfire crew at Bonneville brought up the fact that MAKING 600 HORSE POWER FROM A FLATHEAD!; started over a bet; that it COULDN'T be done!

[porknbeaner]

[ QUOTE ]
It's almost like asking a bicycle to run a Harley engine.--TV


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to give that a try, any sponsors out there? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I don't know about a streeter, but you should be able to make one last through Speed Week, there just isn't that many miles/time on the motor in that amount of time.

I guess the best thing to do is hide'n'watch. The hobby/sport has been built on it can't be or hasn't been done yet.

Ya gotta be a dreamer
The PknBner http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Kilroy]

Anybody know what kinda RPM flatfire is getting?

I would think that would dictate many of the mods you'd make to a motor.

I don't think it would be too hard to bore the bearing races to accept needle berings and I think you could do some damage on the runners to make it breath. Supercharging, fuel injecting and methanol would be a must.

You'd have your biggest challenge on the lower end. I wonder what stroke flatfire is running? I'd bet it's no greater than 4 1/8". I bet a forged 180 degree crank would spin better than the normal config but I've heard they can develop high-rpm vibrations? The reverse flow system isn't too hard to do but I wonder if it's necessary? It probably wouldn't be too tough to make a front blower drive and feed the low intake runners that way after the reverse flow is done but maybe you don't want runners that long?

Lots of possibilities... It would be an expensive trial and error process but it's not impossible. You might want to wait for Flathead Jack's new aluminum blocks, or talk to him about casting some especially for and insane motor like you're planning. Might be nuts but would sure be a fun ride...

[Unkl Ian]

Flatfire used the stock intake ports as the exhaust,but the original exhaust ports were extensively reworked with welding and epoxy.The new intake ports come out of the top of the block beside the exhaust. http://www.flatfire.com/flatfire2.htm
I seem to remember the rules specify no aftermarket blocks.Even the French blocks are not legal.
http://www.flatfire.com/images/rightmiddle2.jpg
http://www.flatfire.com/images/flatfireEngine.jpg

[Germ]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a bored rich person.... kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and WHEN it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich I may be someday, I'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... and I dont think I could possibly EVER get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats the CHALLENGE in the SBC? maybe your CONTENT with getting your ASS fucked by the HAIRY HOG of MODERN DAY COMPLACENT features such as the GERBIL of the "KRAGEN AUTO PARTS "LONG BLOCK" of UNMARVELIC WONDERS,,,,"

I think this is what SEPERATES the MEN from the "PRISON BITCHES".. But then again I'm speaking to a GUY who's SMALL BLOCK CHEVY runs HIGH 17's block to block,,,,


I think you are BETTER off FEEDING the RODENTS up your ASS,, HOT RODDING isn't a fucking POOR MANS sport,,, if you havent figured that out yet, then more then likely thats why your one of the ones trying to MAKE fenderless FARM TRUCKS, and roadster cowls from 40 fords....

PAY to PLAY or DRIVE something "GAY"..
maybe the rodents will REPLACE your DICE for mirror hangers when you SELL your 4 door

[fullhouse296]

The Gerbil thang is starting to worry me , DUDE !

[HOTRODPRIMER]

5 year old thread brought back from the dead? :eek: HRP

[zman]

The Gerbil thang is starting to worry me , DUDE !

dragging up a 5 year old post... and Germ was coherent to boot... this thread is a nugget...

[Shifty Shifterton]

Since it's back from the dead we need to know if this happened and how many blocks grenanded along the way!

[rat bastad]

Hey Germ nice to see you are back....AND HOW !!

FWIW I agree with ya - this is what hot rodding is all about - PUSHING THE ENVELOPE.

I for one would LOVE to hear how they are progressing and what CHALLENGS they have to overcome to ahieve the goal...

Keep us posted !!

EDIT:WHOOPS...a 5YO thread haha...and I thought Germ was back hahahaha

Rat

[Shaggy]

1960's Flathead KR Harleys were making 60 hp from 45 cubes From the factory, so apply that same design to a 300" flattie and thats 450 hp naturaly aspirated

Granted if youve seen the size of the valves and ports on a harley you know why it cant be done like that

[rustyford40]

sounds like a bored rich person.... Kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and when it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich i may be someday, i'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... And i dont think i could possibly ever get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

love it just drop a 350 sbc in and become another belly button don't try anything new.

[Abomination]

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/87500/87637QvYU_w.jpg

Sounds like a bored rich person.... kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and WHEN it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich I may be someday, I'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... and I dont think I could possibly EVER get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

[klazurfer]

Germ ?? He have been in hidings for years ...
Timebandit :.. He worked at Coles`place .. ( Salinas boys )
Last time I spoke with timebandit, he was back home in Norway ...

" ...Naw. I think you got it wrong. Theese guys has been hard workin hot rodders for decades. They build this beast just for the fact to see if they can get it run. They intend to stuff it in a drop tank and race it a B-ville ... "

If Timebandit reads this , He might fill you inn on how that venture turned out ..

Klaz:)

[parksquijada]

Flatfire set the record for the Worlds Fastest Flathead; 302+ MPH

The Landy boys built the engine(s) and Ron Mains drove.

Landy built that original motor for Ron for over $50,000 and they're friends. How much you willing to put into yours today?

old sidewinder

[RichFox]

Same idea. No reverse

[Unkl Ian]

dragging up a 5 year old post... .. this thread is a nugget...


This sort of shit always happens around Full Moon time.

[zman]

1960's Flathead KR Harleys were making 60 hp from 45 cubes From the factory,

LMAO, you just made me spit coffee. You are joking right? Ever put one on a dyno? I didn't think so. Not even close dude. If Mert Lawwill's bike (http://motorcyclemuseum.org/classics/bike.asp?id=54) was only making 48 hp in '69, I'd say that was the top of the pile.

[39 All Ford]

I can get 85 HP from a 5 HP Briggs & Stratton...

[Shaggy]

LMAO, you just made me spit coffee. You are joking right? Ever put one on a dyno? I didn't think so. Not even close dude. If Mert Lawwill's bike (http://motorcyclemuseum.org/classics/bike.asp?id=54) was only making 48 hp in '69, I'd say that was the top of the pile.

I'd read that somewhere i belive harley said it, then again it could be a factory lie too, got me thinking should dyno my 56 or 57 cube wl with a kr upper when I get that motor done

[Elmo Rodge]

1960's Flathead KR Harleys were making 60 hp from 45 cubes From the factory, so apply that same design to a 300" flattie and thats 450 hp naturaly aspirated

You may wish to recheck your math. Wayno

[zman]

I'd read that somewhere i belive harley said it, then again it could be a factory lie too, got me thinking should dyno my 56 or 57 cube wl with a kr upper when I get that motor done


The other thing about Mert's is that I believe it was larger than 45 as well. I think by '69 the race motors grew to 52. I would not put it past the factory to lie. Hell they still do. Ever dyno a big twin? Almost laughable half the time.

[Ice man]

Im 70 and remember reading in Hot rod mag yrs ago a couple of guys did that and ran on the salt. There first run the trany stuck in low gear and they just ran it down the track. If my memory serves me right, she ran 101mph. They fixed the trany and ran 110 in high, but the engine sure looked strange to me as a kid. When you think of the flat head that Henry built, and what has been done with it, nothing is unexceptable. Ice man

[zbuickman]

I can get 85 HP from a 5 HP Briggs & Stratton...yeah me too:D
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GL1tA8FXmkg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[parksquijada]

been done.

[Bored&Stroked]

Flatfire used the stock intake ports as the exhaust,but the original exhaust ports were extensively reworked with welding and epoxy.The new intake ports come out of the top of the block beside the exhaust. http://www.flatfire.com/flatfire2.htm
I seem to remember the rules specify no aftermarket blocks.Even the French blocks are not legal.
http://www.flatfire.com/images/rightmiddle2.jpg
http://www.flatfire.com/images/flatfireEngine.jpg

All the ports were extensively reworked on that motor -- I heard that Landy had over 100 hours of welding alone on that block. Then there is the super big issue of trying to keep the center web from cracking out of it. His achievement is truly awesome, but you can bet he had somewhere between $100 - 200K in just one engine.

[hotrodsnguns]

sounds like a waste of time and money but as i once heard "a fool born every minute"

[RichFox]

sounds like a waste of time and money but as i once heard "a fool born every minute"I don't see how it's a waste of time and money. I assume Ron Main could afford what it cost and having the first and as yet only flathead to go 300 can never be taken away. He will alsays be first. What are you doing with your money that is so much better?

[Human Fly]

sounds like a waste of time and money but as i once heard "a fool born every minute"


I must also be a fool, if i had money to burn, thats exactly how i would do it...................and a gerbil ranch :)

[Flat Ernie]

The other thing about Mert's is that I believe it was larger than 45 as well. I think by '69 the race motors grew to 52. I would not put it past the factory to lie. Hell they still do. Ever dyno a big twin? Almost laughable half the time.

The KH was 54"....900cc (actually closer to 883cc, but called 900cc) - introduced in '54-ish(?) - production ended in '56-ish(?) and the ironhead continued in the "900cc" config until '71-ish(?)...

sounds like a waste of time and money but as i once heard "a fool born every minute"

Then you miss the point completely.

I must also be a fool, if i had money to burn, thats exactly how i would do it...................and a gerbil ranch :)

As my dad always said - anything is possible given enough time and money.


Worth noting is the fact the Harley WL/WR/K/KH/KR/KHR/ETC had much different valve inclination than the Ford flathead. Not to dismiss what they had accomplished by the very early '70s (fastest side-valve engine), but not all is readily transferrable to the Ford flatty.

[kustomizingkid]

Hmmmm..... if hp is a waste of money you should take up bird watching...

[Dirtynails]

yes exactly, if you think as neasly 100G's is big money on a race engine consider a Gullwing Mercedes engine restored to stock will $250,000 in partas and machining.
Here in 2008, the horsepower factory in melbourne got 1835 HP from a street driven Holden,and if you ever had anything to do with a sorry shit pile like a Holden you would understand the $600,000 it cost to achieve it!! six hundred thousand dollars...thats spending BIG.

[cactus zach]

very possible 1000 plus ponys

[ForEverFour]

Not impossible at all.
Down in NZ we have Gary Grease Martin and Andrew Rea who are quiet toilers in their garage at home!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127815

[vertible59]

The Gerbil thang is starting to worry me , DUDE !
how about the 350 up his butt...and lets race the gerbels. much more inventive...don't you think?

[Shaggy]

The KH was 54"....900cc (actually closer to 883cc, but called 900cc) - introduced in '54-ish(?) - production ended in '56-ish(?) and the ironhead continued in the "900cc" config until '71-ish(?)...

Worth noting is the fact the Harley WL/WR/K/KH/KR/KHR/ETC had much different valve inclination than the Ford flathead. Not to dismiss what they had accomplished by the very early '70s (fastest side-valve engine), but not all is readily transferrable to the Ford flatty.

but they produced the KR racer until '68 so a lot of semi modern technology was applied, really i've looked at the setup seriously and the size of the valves as compared to the cubic inches is rediculious, but on an L- head it also lowers compression significantly also the ports are completly unrestricted, it goes straight from valve to exhaust pipe you can actually see through the valve pocket to the exhaust pipe

It really isn't 100% applicable to a ford because you cant fit as much ratio of valve to displacement in one of those blocks, physicly wont fit

[Kustom Linez]

Sounds like a bored rich person.... kinda like the type that sticks gerbils up their ass.

Why not just get a 350 chevy block out of a caprice and make 650-700 easily on a more reasonable budget? Wouldnt be quite a tradgedy if and WHEN it frags...

I don't care how ffing rich I may be someday, I'm still gonna do stuff cheap.... and I dont think I could possibly EVER get bored enough to jam a rodent up my butt.

It's comments like this and a few others that have me wondering why even bother asking a serious question on this site? Is there any need for dumb ass comments? Must have plenty of spare time.

[A Chopped Coupe]

Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but even though this post is really Old, it is always interesting to talk flatheads and HP.
There is quite a lot of knowledge on this site, a lot of talented people, like Bruce L, Flat Ernie, Blown49, JWL, Wayno, Ole Ron, Flat32..................and others. How about a carbureted flathead that would put out 300/350hp on gas?

I know times are hard right now, and I am a relative newcomer, but has the H.A.M.B. ever
thought about building a Bonneville/El Mirage car as a collective group????
I've got an extra "pristine" 8BA block, Doug King mains and bottom end girdle, NOS Halibrand Champ rearend..................just a thought.

[Beep]

Hey BURNEDUP...............many "good" racing people don't do it the easy way like some we won't mention. Their test is to be different.........and they usually succeed. Using an sbc,,,is a the easy way out and "just like most" of the easy out people. I love these kind of challenges myself..................thanks

[Kevin Lee]

Everybody, take a look at the dates on this thread. Some neat discussion still happening, but I don't think someone who posted in '04 is going to see your reply.

[50 Ford 1963]

This thread is the perfect example of Hot Rodding, you either get it or you don't. The Flathead is pushing almost 100 years old and people are still arguing, errr... discussing how to get more power out of the engine. It doesn't matter if you have $1000 or $100,000 to build one, the goal is to make it the baddest that you can. Anyone can get 1:1 hp/cu from a sbc, but to do it with a flathead, that takes some ingenuity, initiative, and innovation... well that and some $$$

[belair]

Anybody have the "World's most powerful flathead" issue of R&C nearby? I seem to remember a dyno number over 500...I think that issue was about 1955...I'm at work, in a library that prefers "Theologische Geschicte" to R&C. No accounting for tastes.
That was blown and on fuel.
What's wrong with theological history? I always wondered why you know so much, now I know. You're "The Librarian"!

[Flat Ernie]

You just figured that out? Haha!!

I wish I had one tenth of Bruce's knowledge, familiarity with, and access to early Ford pubs...