Kinda-Tech -where do you draw the line?

[choprods]

what is worth fixing? what is too far gone/ How do you make that call.....I for one am guilty from time to time of being fatally over optomistic.
I guess the tech part of this is A TUTORIAL-About the saving of your money/ a judgment call that will save you a lot of precious time and also a lot of dissapointment Too.I saw this car sell on ebay and thought and thought about why it sold.....and why it brought so much.
I usually can "see" somethging in the most unlikely of projects -so I must say that maybe I could benefit from this information as much as the next guy!lets see your candidates for the record....what have you seen and RAN FROM....or what have you bought -AGAINST YOUR BETTER JUDGEMENT- and all your buds sincere advice.
so what did you do??????did you pass on the car or did you buy it- see it thru to a completed vehicle or what?what can you add to prevent others from buying a car that is in reality -A NO FUCKIN WAY IS THAT EVER GONNA BE A CAR AGAIN- PROJECT!

[manyolcars]

I am unable to draw the line. I think I can fix almost anything. I am POSITIVE I could fix that car. I would do it just to prove I could. I didnt see how much it sold for, nor do I want that car, but the challenge excites me. Years ago, I repaired some 40 Ford fenders by jumping up and down on them first to force them to began to regain their correct shape.

[choprods]

BROUGHT 3,100 DOLLARS I BELIEVE......IN THEIR DEFENSE- THESE TWO PICS ARE OF THE WORST DAMAGE. THE DOOR ON OTHER SIDE AND FIREWALL WERE BETTER.

[shoebox72]

How the fuck does someone let a car get into that condition in the first place? Rust is one thing, but thats rediculus.

Billy

[JamesG]

Was that a 33-34 Ford?

[choprods]

I don't know if it was collision-or being at the bottom of the pile of junkers in a big ditch.I know anything is fixable but thats why I posted this........... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[DRD57]

It all boils down to time, talent and money. If you're lacking in one area you can make it up with an abundance of the other two.

So, for a guy who is a very talented metal man with a lot of time on his hands, something like this might be his only ticket to having a 34 Ford five window hot rod (I'm assuming that's what this was before barrel rolling down a very high cliff).

I like working on cars more than most people but, I would have to pass on anything this bad.

My Cadillac project started with a California car that had never been hit and it's more work than I ever imagined just because it sat for so many years that every part needed attention. Saving a croaker is a heap of work even when you start with what appears to be a cherry car. It makes sense to me to start with as good a car as you can afford.

[TINGLER]

Here is a glimps back at the "Bad ol' Willys" days....

I pulled this cab out of the junk yard....no floorboards, etc etc. I had to cut it into 3 pieces to get it out....
I do have the doors for it and I do plan on finishing it someday.....
My '58 Chevy is taking precidence right now! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (not to mention the ever present Fairlane)

I have a huge amount of optimism when it comes to stuff too...
I don't know that a line can be drawn, its all relative. I mean, the Willys is a pile, and could very well wind up as an abortion.....but if these pics were of a model A ford pickup, then it would seem less crazy. Do I regret getting this? NO. It has been a great learning experience and I would love to see it on the road someday. Its just a little too much for me right now.

Where to draw the line.....who knows??????

[earl schieb]

[ QUOTE ]
what can you add to prevent others from buying a car that is in reality -A NO FUCKIN WAY IS THAT EVER GONNA BE A CAR AGAIN- PROJECT!


[/ QUOTE ]

Simple solution. Take a friend with you.

my long epiphany......
I grew up in a 59 T-Bird. It was my mom's pride and joy from '61(dad traded a 59 Galaxie 500 conv for it)until about 72, when she replaced it with a 66 Sedan DeVille. I loved that 'Bird and it was supposed to be my first car when I turned 16 in 73, but there was no way my mother was gonna let an old car sit idle in the driveway till I was old enough to drive it. She sold it for $200 to a dude working road construction who saw it sitting there with no tags. I was heartbroke http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Fast forward to, oh, about 1990. My dad was tellin me about this big junkyard he had passed by on a business trip, and how he thought there was a Model A pickup(RPU, to be exact) out next to the road. Well, HE thought it would be cool to "fix up"(my dad's NOT a car guy). I thought I would humor him and we'd ride up and take a look-see. We arrived to find a rusty A truck with a chopped(off) top---bleh...and a crusty old dude with no personality that owned the place. His yard was, however, intriguing, so we asked to take a look around. "Mr Personality" finally agreed, and we went for a walk. After about fifteen minutes of walking, there it was---mom's T-Bird! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I "knew" when I saw it, and double checked some quirky things about her car that were unique......YES, it IS the same car. A lot rustier and definitely forlorn, but a big part of my childhood. I HAD to have it. And it LOOKED repairable......
The friendly junkyard owner(I say that with utmost sarcasm) offered it to me for $600. "I'll be back".....
Two weeks later I enlisted one of my customers, a psuedo-gold-chain rod builder(who conveniently had a rollback)to go with me as an extra set of eyes and share my excitement(and his truck)! Damn good thing for me, too. We arrived and I was ready to own that 'Bird no matter what. Nope, no need to look closely at the floors(or lack of) "Naw, that's just some dirt/mud in the floor pan". Turns out, there was NO floor pan left, thanks to my accomplice looking CAREFULLY through eyes with no emotional attachment. He also made me look at all the rust/rot I didn't want to see http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Good thing he was there, cause I would have pissed away six Ben Franklins.
True story---the yard's still there(btw, it's up the road a piece from Von Tingler) and I imagine the car is too....

I NEVER EVER buy a MAJOR project anymore without an extra set of eyes!

[PEDDRO]

Is it just me or are those Willys freakin UGLY? No offense intended Tingler....just can't see how those things got passed the Willys front gates!

Sometimes I can't see much difference between the work required for a car bought in reasonable nick and one that needs heaps of work. I think it depends on the rate of progress that one can see is possible that can make it worth it. Did that make sense?

I'd love to have that 33 in the back of the shed though, as a talking point!

[TINGLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it just me or are those Willys freakin UGLY? No offense intended Tingler....just can't see how those things got passed the Willys front gates!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah yeah yeah.....I KNOW those Willys are ugly.....but I really love them for some reason. I always have.....(I know I shouldn't) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Here is a link to another Willys that you all NEED TO SEE. Seriously. This is a success story if there ever was one. LUKESTER, take a look at this on for some inspiration!

The LINK: WWW. REALCOOLWILLYS BUILD UP. clik here. (http://www.hotrodindex.150m.com/WillysPuppp.html)

Do yourselves a favor and take a look at what this guy pulled off. This dude DREW NO LINE. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This is a quote from his start page:
[ QUOTE ]
This is the sad remains of a USA 1937 Willys sedan which had been burnt out buldozed and dumped in a creek bed but you have to start with something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a BEFORE and AFTER pic. My hat is off to this fella!
Does anyone on here know him???

[TINGLER]

Hey Earl Shieb,

Yeah, I know who you are talking about.....
I can't deal with him at all. That old dude is a proud RUSTRANCHER.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[36-3window]

i think it depends on how rare the car is , your desire for it.....and you skill level. that `34 5 window could be fixed,i'm sure i could do it...but it would take me many hours to do,probabliiy twice as much as i think! the person who fix's it will need tools ,time,talent and access to some extra sheet metal panels,and be able to do it himself or with help from a buddy, if you paid a pro to do it you would end up with way too much money in it....i think a lot of guys fool themselfs about their own abillities and end up getting in trouble on a project like this


my own `36 3 window project started out with two crappy bodies to end up with one good one..like i said,it depends...here is body #1....cost me $2000

[36-3window]

her is body #2...cost me $1900....but came with a real nice deck lid

[Revhead]

Check out this car. It was bulldozed and brought back to life.

Alfa Romeo 2900 (http://www.symbolicmotors.com/frames/images/Classics/CurrentClassics/8C2900/8c2900b.html)

[PEDDRO]

VT: you have my respect! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

So does that guy that restored that Willys sedan/truck! Hang on.........I just noticed: That dude's AUSTRALIAN...f%ck, now I know he's crazy!

[burndup]

maaaaaaaather fahhhhhhker, that alfa was FOOKED!

[scarliner]

I am replying to this post,for different reasons.one to try and keep someone from making the same stupid mistakes I have and two, to help inspire anyone who is pretty much in over thier head on a project and talking to themselves!Heres a couple of my major goof ups.The first is a 57 ranch wagon,I had to have.Everyone has a favorite car or dream car.Well at one time I thought I needed a 57 Ford ranch wagon.So I searched and searched,but anything I found was either out of my price range or not worth doing.So after a year or so of searching,I convinced myself life wouldnt go on, unless I found one for myself and besides that,these things were rare.You ever do that?Just go so excited about a car you want, you loose all your common sense and suddenly get tunnel vision! I got so desperate,I purchased this one over the phone,without even taking a look at it! DUMB MOVE! Well to make a long story short, shes not too nice and I am ashamed to say in public,what I gave for this thing.Theres no way I can sell it and even come close to breaking even.And you know I have no one to blame but myself! I did a dumb thing and now I gotta live with it.Needless to say, I am not nearly excited about 57 ranch wagons as I was.Now I am faced with building this thing at a cost of more than I could buy a very nice finished car at or trying to get a few tips from my undertaker as to how I can be buried in this thing,the later is looking like the lesser of the two evils! I guess what I am trying to say here is that its o.k. to be excited about your dreams, but remember dont get in a hurry and dont buy just anything.Take the time to really check the car over and take someone with you,whoms opinion you value,make sure its what you want.And if it cost a little more,then pay it,for a better car,in the long run its money well spent.
Now for goof up #2,yes I seem to be a goof up magnet!Only I am looking at this one with another point of view.Its a mustang fastback.Yes I know its not a traditional hot rod and hell I never really even liked mustangs.But Im pretty excited about this thing,why you say? One it didnt cost anything,two its a piece of crap,and theres not much there.So therefore I can do about anything I want to it and its gotta look better!My plans are to build a drag car/trans am style car out of this thing.It will have a tube frame and a fast drivetrain,it wont be no stinking stocker!.I hope to have many comments,such as "looks like he ruined a perfectly good mustang fastback".Thats why I am taking before pics.Why you say,would you build one of these?I guess cause im sick of looking at all the 100 point restored little cookie cutter mustangs every place you go.And I like the 50s and 60s cars,you gotta have some variety in your life!My point here is,this car is also a p.o.s.,but if its what you want and you cant swing but a few dollars and a few hours at a time,then so be it, if its the only way you can get what you want,sometimes you have to take the hard road.Right now I cant by a twenty five thousand dollar mustang,so I am starting with this hulk.I should have this going in 20 years or so!

[scarliner]

And this is that very nice mustang I just spoke of!

[chopolds]

I've told some of my 'prospective' customers, "if you can get that car for free, it's too expensive!"
I've surprised myself, and others, in what can be fixed with enough time and enthusiasm. but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Don't just balance time and money, in what it will take to bring a car back from the dead. Factor in the frustration, the aggravation, time in chasing parts, special tools and equipment needed, the space it will take up for a very long time. The pressure from peers, spouse, and your self to try to get it done in a timely manner.
Sometimes it is worth it to forget a bad penny, and save a few more bucks to buy something that is more solid.

[manyolcars]

I saw a post from three guys in England who built a complete Willys coupe with an English wheel. They CREATED each and every part of the body. Was it too much effort??

[Morrisman]

manyolcars,
I saw a car at an English show that was built from hundreds of 4" x6" steel patches, all beat out, rounded and welded together. May be the same car, but jeeeez, what a lot of welding!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[hatch]

To me it's about money. If you are paying someone to do the work for you, start with the absolute finest car you can find....if you do your own work, buy whatever you want, and blow everyones mind when they see the finished car.

[Rocknrod]

Some of these things are insane... the alfa for one... there wasnt a car left! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Dirty Dug]

As has been said, It all cmes down to time or money. There are times when I hate going out to work on my "32. I'm just plane sick of working on the body. If I'd bought a decent body I'd have spent thousands more for it, probably wouldn't have a '32 at all. I've worked on the body now for the last eight months after collecting body parts for a year. Has it been worth it? Hell ya. Is it sometimes hard to get excited about it? Hell ya. Would I do it again? No way. But I sure am glad I took it on. Like I said, I wouldn't have a '32 if I hadn't gone this route. This is what I started with----

[alchemy]

This topic is great! I never draw the line. Just ask people who have seen the stuff I drag home. I LOVE the prospect of bringing back a piece of junk from the dead. It's a great feeling.

But...bolting on a NOS part for the first time gets me going too.


alchemy

[Kilroy]

It all comes down to personal preferance I guess....

You build what you can afford in time as well as money.

It's a decision that needs to be made in the absence of pie-eyed enthusiasm though.

It all comes down to having a plan and sticking to it. If you want to build a roadster, buy the best body you can afford. If you're broke and can only afford a body that's got a dent on every pannel, rust halfway to the belt line and no doors, hood, decklid, or molding, then that's where you have to start. It'll just take more expendature of time resources. If you have a family or other responsabilities (work, etc) then may be you want to save a little more money and buy an easier project or you might find yourself without those other responsabilities. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

But stick to the plan! If you want a roadster, buy a roadster. Don't "make do" with a coupe body you can jury-rig into an assemblance of a roadster. It'll never be the same and you probably won't be satisfied.

I think the right project is out there for everyone. It just takes time to find it.

Just ask me! I'm writing this as much to remind myself to stick it out and build something I really want rather than what can be had right now as I am contributing to this post! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I've been looking for a long time now and still haven't found "the right project." (ie: My "car fund" is dictating a incomplete, non-running 4dr 54 dodge, while I really want a '34 Ford 3window coupe. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif)

[Paul]

If I had listened to every impartial observer I would never have owned any cars.

ALL my cars could have been considered pieces of crap by some-ones standards.

And yes it is about time and money and the car itself but it’s also about timing,

There is “opportunity cost” involved, here’s an example;

While out for a nice fall drive I spot something on the side of the road,
FOR SALE..it says.
"When will you have $800.00 bucks in your pocket AND find a two door Studebaker Lark Wagon for that very price again?" I say to myself.
"Rust? Who cares about rust?
This is a golden opportunity here, this kind of thing may only happen once in a life-time! It’s only metal and metal can be cut shaped and welded. It can be made NEW again!"

I take the paper work in to the DMV..and,
The seller never transferred the title into his name…there’s a fine for that?
And I have to pay it? $180.00!!!! for title plates and tabs.

The car sits for a while and I decide to sell, on the way to the swap meet where there’s sure to be people with cash in there hot hands, a tire blows. Tow job..$50.00!!

I’ll buy a set of tires, that looks better then one new one and they are all pretty bad. $260.00!!

At the swap meet I spy from a hundred feet away- an Edmunds 2x2 intake with carbs, my money is out before I even get there! $225.00!!

At another stall, a set of scoops, $80.00?? well ok..

Hang out by the car all day and get NO bites..

Drive the car home, put the intake on and think maybe I’ll just keep it.

Might as well have the exhaust redone, take it to a friend who does a fantastic job, new pipe from the manifolds to chrome tips with a sweet sounding pair of twelve inch glasspacks all tucked up inside so I can lower if I want. $485.00!!!

Drive it for a couple months..

Cancel the insurance on it and leave it out in the rain.. to rust.. to this day...

Maybe I SHOULD have listened!!

anybody looking for a once in a lifetime opportunity? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

[G V Gordon]

I've posted this before but back in '78 I caught hell for giving a hundred bucks for this.

[G V Gordon]

this is how it turned out.

[metalshapes]

It all depends on how rare the car is and how badly you want one...
I saved some stuff that really should not have been saved, and I bit off more than I could chew a couple of times.
That is all part of the learning curve.
The trouble I have is that when I go look at a car to buy, I see the car the way it will be, not the way it is...
After a couple of months of tripping over a dead hulk like that in my back yard, I am sometimes cured of my desire to do that particular car, sometimes I am not...
Buying something like that, and then selling it at a loss a year later is sometimes a cheap way to get it out of your system...
That is why my back yard is filled with dead cars. And I bought an other one 2 days ago... Wish me luck...

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
.... Years ago, I repaired some 40 Ford fenders by jumping up and down on them first to force them to began to regain their correct shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that the way everyone does them? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Smokin Joe]

I think what you have to do is look at what you CAN do and what you'd like to LEARN to do. The best rods are the ones you're challenged on. The ones that taught you something new and forced you to expand your capabilities. The ones you can look back on with pride in the process. It's the process, the getting there, that separates the rodders from the gold chainers. Not the money.

As for wether it's too far gone for you, that's a different answer for everyone. Having a friend or two to point out the pitfalls helps, but it's YOU that has to decide what's too much.

Dirty Harry said: "A man's gotta know his limitations."
A rodder looks at his limitations and figures out how to get around them or overcome them. If it isn't a challenge it's the wrong project. If it's too much of a challenge it's also the wrong project.

Going to a cruise night for the first time in your completed project should feel like sitting at your kids graduation. You want to be able to look back on what you went through to get there. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[plan9]

if its cheap enough, get it...

if you cant build it up, use it for parts...

i dont really care if i have the skill or not... iam a relatively intelligent monkey and will learn whats needed.

at this point in my game, i wont take on anything full fendered... in the same condition as that coupe... or the willys sittin in 'yon gully...

imo - late 20s-early 30s fords are smaller and take up less space, also depends on how badly i want something..

theres no time in my day, but iam deffinately researching gaps in my skills... at least when i start up, i wont be going into it with my pantaloons down.

i wont pay 3k-6k for a *snazzy body*, unless its got history.. id rather spend $500 bucks on a shitload of parts... in the long run your $5k had to have been earned via work... or daddy has some deep pockets. its equal to time spent in the garage mending a relic and refining SKILLS for the next jalopy...

frustrations? headaches? .... it might as well be something you have passion for... because there will be something else to take its place.

[Digger_Dave]

It's strange. I had "passed" this thread all week. Now after reading it and having "drawn the line yesterday"; I'm wondering if I did the right thing.

First; I have a '28 A Tudor Hiboy rolling chassis, blown flathead with the body "fitted" sitting here beside me. (computer is in the shop)

My body has been under cover for 35 years and other than rotten top bows (have new kit ready to install) is in excellent shape. I even have all the new glass ready to install

The LINE. A fellow contacted me a while ago and informed me that he had a COMPLETE '28 A Tudor in pieces. Frame boxed, top chopped 3", 4-bar setup, dropped axle, 351 engine, auto trans, etc., etc., etc. I spent all afternoon Monday going through all the pieces. Almost a duplication of my own current project, with the except the chopped body and the fact that the frame and body had sat in a slew half way up the doors for over 15 years, and you can see through the rust perforations!

The indecision: It was ALL or NOTHING. (there was a few pieces I could have used) Things like the THREE hoods, NEW cowl, (lower) TWO sets of front fenders, TWO sets of rear fenders. (I need to have fenders on the car before inspection; required here in Alberta; after inspection....well...!! )

My problem, where do I store a WHOLE OTHER PROJECT?
I'm not a metal worker. (engines and electrical are my game)
Funds are tight. (although the price is right)
I'm getting too old to start ANOTHER rod, even though the idea DID "stir" some excitment.

After 3 sleepless nights, I "drew" the line, and PASSED! (still wondering if I did the right thing!! ) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Kevin Lee]

I'd say you did the right thing. Somehow I think Model A stuff has a way of multiplying in a wierd way. Seems like you always have "almost enough" for a complete sedan, coupe, or whatever. From there you start looking for doors or a back panel and you find the doors and maybe a cowl or rear quarters cheap. "Hmmmm...all I need now is another set of doors and a sedan back panel and I can put together another car." You end up being a parts dealer and not a car builder - screw it. I gave away the back half of a sedan and some other misc. stray parts and panels for this reason. I have the parts to put a coupe together later this Spring and that's it. Sometimes you just have to purge and get on with building....but you can never have enough flathead stuff. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JimC]

I have seen some really great cars built from pieces that probably should not have been built.

I recently bought a 1947 Ford that my neighbors laughed at and my wife questioned my sanity for bringing it home.

After seing some of the projects above made me feel fortunate to find the car I have. It requires very little body work, has minor rust repair needed, and will make a nice car.
The doown side is that it was apart when I got it, shich is a challenge for me to fit back together. Fortunately, there are several HAMBers and members of the RRT who have built the model that I have and are a valuable resource for me.

At one of the car shows I was entered in with the 62, the shop that did my body and paint work had a booth set up.
A potential customer was talking to Steve about one of the projects he(the customer) was contemplating.
The customer asked Steve what he needed to build a car.
I, jokingly interjected "you need at least one wheel"
Steve answered him with" no, all you need is a checkbook"

The car in the opening post, undoubtably took a spill as DrJ mentioned, but is not beyond salvaging. The fabrication and rough in guru in Steve's shop would only be on it about a couple of weeks. Whether the line should be drawn is any body's opinion.
I know my limitations, and that car is out of bounds for me.

Jim

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say you did the right thing. Somehow I think Model A stuff has a way of multiplying in a wierd way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whew.. thanks Grim. I will sleep better tonight! I can get away without ANY of the parts this fellow had. But I think he was a used car salesman in his earlier days, he sure put the pressure on!

[ QUOTE ]
You end up being a PARTS DEALER and not a car builder - screw it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And THAT was probably the biggest reason I passed. (I'm sooo close to finishing the one I have! I can "taste" it! )

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you just have to purge and get on with building....but you can never have enough flathead stuff. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN ! ! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[uncleAud]

anything can be saved...i bout an axe and all that was wrong with it was it needed a new head, while I had it apart i give it a new handle...looks like new!!!

[choprods]

I my self cant seem to say no enough!I have several"marginal projects as any one who knows me can attest to.....I do know the car I posted at first of this post can be built.
I doubt it could be done in a two week period of time [by a crew of six]!Yes it could be improved- but NOT DONE.
I think the gist of my post was to impart that YES IT -or your car can be saved- but is it practical[time or money wise]
I like to think that at least half the potential PROJECT-would be recognizeable as that vintage of car-and at least half of it IS THERE...also an incredibly LOW PRICE would help win ME over.........NONE of which is the case with the 34 I posted........
There- Now if I could only follow my own advice! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif