Chrysler Spitfire 6 question

[54_Nailhead]

I went and looked at '51 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe today that has the "Spitfire" inline 6 for a motor. Somebody please educate me on these motors? I know pretty much nothing about Chrysler stuff, just looking for some info/background on this motor. Thanks.

[mr57]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but could someone also tell me if the Chrysler industrial six out of a Massey Ferguson combine is interchangeabe with a passenger car/truck engine?? It's a 265 c.i.d. out of a Massey 82.

[Machinos]

Edit: ^ ^ ^ Yep, it should be interchangeable. Check out Vintage Power Wagons, I think they have more info on those.

AFAIK the "Spitfire" is identical to all the previous 251ci engines except for the letters on the head. I'll just copy and paste the 1951 info from my spec sheet:

Engine Type: L-Head, Inline 6 Cylinder
Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-1/2"
Engine Displacement: 250.6 Cu. In.
Compression Ratio: 7.00:1
Taxable Horsepower: 28.36
Horsepower: 116 @ 3,600 RPM
Torque: 208 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM
Normal Oil Pressure: 60 PSI

The biggest and most powerful version of that engine they used was in the '54 Windsor:

Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-3/4"
Engine Displacement: 264.5 Cu. In.
Compression Ratio: 7.00:1
Taxable Horsepower: 28.36
Horsepower: 119 @ 3,600 RPM
Torque: 218 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM

So as you can see, they're not really powerful, but they make a good amount of torque at REALLY low RPMs, so they work allright and cruise great. I saw a lot driving at the Chrysler Club national show in Minneapolis last year, and you can't even hear them running under 30mph. From everything I've read they were insanely reliable amd well-designed, but like all flatheads they're sort of inefficient, which was why they were replaced in Dodges and Plymouths with the slant six. They were still used in tractors and stuff up until the mid-70's though.

[Suede]

Ive got a 53 plym for my daily driver and its flat six is basically the same as the chryslers, theyre even interchangable. Ive found it has reasonable power in the low to mid range, perfect for city driving, annoying on freeways. Acceleration isnt exactly great above 50 but what can you expect from a 51 year old un rebuilt flathead six?

[Machinos]

Dodge and Plymouth flatheads were basically the same design, but the block and displacement were smaller. They will bolt into other flathead cars though.

[54_Nailhead]

Thanks for the info, that was what I was looking for. Are they easy to find parts for? The motor in the car does have a slight knock. Guy that has the car thinks it might be one of the pistons moving around in the cylinder, but it has been like that for the last 15 years or so he says.

[waterboy]

Check out the p15-d24.com web site. full of info and great forum.also get all the 251-265s you can out of the combines.stash them in the barn..... ..Waterboy..... ..

[shoebox72]

[ QUOTE ]
The motor in the car does have a slight knock. Guy that has the car thinks it might be one of the pistons moving around in the cylinder, but it has been like that for the last 15 years or so he says.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I hope all the pistons are moving around in the cylinders. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Just a word of caution about these engines if it has Fluid Drive. The engine oil pressure feeds the fluid drive unit somehow & usually results in lower oil pressure, so don't expect wonders from this mill. Especially if it's never been gone through. Mopars of this era are not really desirable & are usually hard to sell, so just think before you buy & don't get caught up in the moment & buy it just because it's there & a neat old car. Make sure it's what you really want & plan on loosing your shirt or keeping it for a long time. Not that they're bad but thats the reality of these cars.

Billy

[waterboy]

http://www3.memes.com/americancane/pics/PA030001.JPG this will make you spitfire spit fire. waterboy..... ..

[jimi'shemi291]

Great thread on a rare motor, guys. Yes, the flatheads became outmoded by more powerful V8s after '54. But if you have a '30s or '40s car and don't want to change it radically, a big flatty is still a good way to go for some more horses WHILE still keeping a more stock look and feel. Everybody has to suit themselves, and that's what makes this a great, LIFE-LONG hobby! Man, it just gets into your blood. I have a 265 that was swapped into my '38 Mopar in the 1960s, and I too need some expert advice. Specifically, are there any factory or after market manifolds, OR do we have to have a good shop create them? Secondly, after balancing motor internal parts and align-boring cylinders, how much to mill the head? How much can block be bored, and what pistons will work? Without taking the head off yet, I can't say if the pistons were steel or aluminum. Without spending a real fortune, how much can the horsepower be boosted? Thanks, guys!

[d2_willys]

Edit: ^ ^ ^ Yep, it should be interchangeable. Check out Vintage Power Wagons, I think they have more info on those.

AFAIK the "Spitfire" is identical to all the previous 251ci engines except for the letters on the head. I'll just copy and paste the 1951 info from my spec sheet:

Engine Type: L-Head, Inline 6 Cylinder
Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-1/2"
Engine Displacement: 250.6 Cu. In.
Compression Ratio: 7.00:1
Taxable Horsepower: 28.36
Horsepower: 116 @ 3,600 RPM
Torque: 208 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM
Normal Oil Pressure: 60 PSI

The biggest and most powerful version of that engine they used was in the '54 Windsor:

Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-3/4"
Engine Displacement: 264.5 Cu. In.
Compression Ratio: 7.00:1
Taxable Horsepower: 28.36
Horsepower: 119 @ 3,600 RPM
Torque: 218 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM

So as you can see, they're not really powerful, but they make a good amount of torque at REALLY low RPMs, so they work allright and cruise great. I saw a lot driving at the Chrysler Club national show in Minneapolis last year, and you can't even hear them running under 30mph. From everything I've read they were insanely reliable amd well-designed, but like all flatheads they're sort of inefficient, which was why they were replaced in Dodges and Plymouths with the slant six. They were still used in tractors and stuff up until the mid-70's though.

I believe the 53 Windsor spitfire 6 had the same specs as the 54. My father owned a 53 Windsor with spitfire 6, ran great but the head warped on it(not any fault of his). He got it surfaced and it ran great after that. Smooooth engine, but not much getupandgo, especially with fluid torque drive. Next year was Powerflite and it was a slight bit better.
Those 53 Windsors sold for $2700, about the same as Chevy and Fords. That was the reasoning in him buying it.

[xxwelderxx]

Engines parts to rebuild these motors are available. Vintage Power Wagon, Andy Bernbaum in MA, Egge Machine are just a few places I have gotten parts from for my flathead rebuild.

You can hop up the motors. There are dual and triple carb set ups for the engines. Earl Edgerton does a number of wonderful things for the flatheads as well. George Ashes in PA has a world of knowledge on mopar flatheads .

You can shave a stock head as much as .090, I would cut it at least .050 for more compression and pep.

[32viper]

I remember years ago, my father swapped the spitfire into a dodge truck. The spitfire engine is 2 inches longer and most of the distance is made up of wider main and rod bearings. The Dodges and Plymouths were weak in that area. I remember the old spitfire in the truck would occasionally hang the throttle wide open. Dad wouldn't even shut down the engine..he would just get out, raise the hood and jerk the throttle back! I guess you could say "Ram tough."

[50 chrysler]

Im looking for ways to hotrod my spitfire 6 does anybody know if I can bolt a dodge or plymouth intake to my spitfire engine

[rockabillybassman]

www.oldmoparts.com (http://www.oldmoparts.com) will get you lots of parts. So will www.kanter.com (http://www.kanter.com)
Tom Langdon will have speed gear, so will Egge. Mitchell Motor Parts will help with body and trim, and our own Flattop Bob may be able to help.

[ChryslerRodder]

[ QUOTE ]
The motor in the car does have a slight knock. Guy that has the car thinks it might be one of the pistons moving around in the cylinder, but it has been like that for the last 15 years or so he says.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I hope all the pistons are moving around in the cylinders. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Just a word of caution about these engines if it has Fluid Drive. The engine oil pressure feeds the fluid drive unit somehow & usually results in lower oil pressure, so don't expect wonders from this mill. Especially if it's never been gone through. Mopars of this era are not really desirable & are usually hard to sell, so just think before you buy & don't get caught up in the moment & buy it just because it's there & a neat old car. Make sure it's what you really want & plan on loosing your shirt or keeping it for a long time. Not that they're bad but thats the reality of these cars.

Billy
Actually these had a torque converter with a clutch mounted on them and they were separate from the engine oil system. They did use a special oil and the oil does need to be changed periodically. Not very efficient as they use solenoids and relays to do the shifting.

[RichFox]

Im looking for ways to hotrod my spitfire 6 does anybody know if I can bolt a dodge or plymouth intake to my spitfire engineDodge passenger cars and Plymouths are shorter than a Chrysler/DeSoro block. manifolds will not interchange.

[mtkawboy]

They used to use a lot of Chrysler Motors flathead 6 cylinders in forklifts I used to work on & rebuild in the Air Force in the late 60s

[yank28]

They ran alot of the spitfire 6 engines in the 1960s on circle tracks in New England.
They were pretty fast. One was track champion in 1964 at Waterford Speedway in
Conn. They ran a mixture of sixes and overhead v-8s together.

[plym_46]

Chrysler Desoto, and canadian built Mopar flat 6's are 25 inches long, Dodge and Plymouth are 23.5. for obvious reasons internal parts do not interchange between the different lenght blocks, manifolds neither. Accessories do swap. Except the longer blocks have a longer distributor drive, (easily changed) Spitfire is marketing.

Search for George Asche in thei forum for a phoe number. He does split intake and exhaust manifolds. Old Daddy of thei forum also splits them.

Big torque motors, don't like a lot of revs but not many with near 5 inch stroke do.

Chryslers likely will be equiped withthe M6 semi automatic transmission. Lots of recent discussion regarding those. Egge and Terrel macine are good sources for engine rebuild parts as well and Vintage power wagons. And yes the combine engines are a bolt ins for which ever block the matchup with in lenght.

[73RR]

George Asche is the guy to call, 814.354.2621. George has probably forgotten more about the flat 6/8 than all of us together know right now...


.

[plym49]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]


Just a word of caution about these engines if it has Fluid Drive. The engine oil pressure feeds the fluid drive unit somehow & usually results in lower oil pressure, so don't expect wonders from this mill.

Billy

That is absolutely not true.

The fluid couplings, transmissions and engines were completely independent.

[plym49]

Actually these had a torque converter with a clutch mounted on them and they were separate from the engine oil system. They did use a special oil and the oil does need to be changed periodically. Not very efficient as they use solenoids and relays to do the shifting.

Not a torque converter, a fluid coupling. Not the same thing. Fluid couplings do not multiply torque. Fluid couplings were used on the old Hydramatics - that's why they were four speeds - no torque multiplication.

Fluid couplings are more efficient at higher rpms as they lock up due to the mass of the fluid rotating around the periphery of the unit.

It is not necessary to change the fluid in a MoPar fluid coupling unless it is slipping; then, you just top it off. Do not use ATF as that causes the seals to leak.

[panic]

Related 25" engine:
237" DeSoto, same 3-7/16" bore × 4-1/4" stroke.
23" Ply/Do engines:
218 3-1/4" × 4-3/8"
230 3-1/4" × 4-5/8"

[plym_46]

The only mopar set up that shared engine oil with the transmission was the 53/4 plymouth HyDrive unit basically a one year deal as the powerflite came out in 55.

The fluid drive units take a special oil (todays most readily substitute is the universal tractor hydraulic fluid 10 wt). No torque multiplication till 53 or so. The drain and refill access is under the removable center sectioin fo the front floor. The access lines up so that the unit can not be over filled. About the only problem that occurs to these fluid units is that the seals may leak, other than that they are bullet proof.

[50 chrysler]

The only mopar set up that shared engine oil with the transmission was the 53/4 plymouth HyDrive unit basically a one year deal as the powerflite came out in 55.

The fluid drive units take a special oil (todays most readily substitute is the universal tractor hydraulic fluid 10 wt). No torque multiplication till 53 or so. The drain and refill access is under the removable center sectioin fo the front floor. The access lines up so that the unit can not be over filled. About the only problem that occurs to these fluid units is that the seals may leak, other than that they are bullet proof.


is this 10 wt able to be mixed with the existing fluid?

[pasadenahotrod]

One of the most critical parts of the Chrysler Corp flat sixes is the water distribution tube which slides into the engine and directs water to the valve seats among other things. These tubes are now being reproduced I believe but back when were a bear to find since EVERY engine needed a new one every 8-10 years or so. They were cad-plated or terne-plated steel and when they go away your cooling system is in trouble.

[plym49]

is this 10 wt able to be mixed with the existing fluid?

Yes. A couple of tips: if the fluid coupling is not slipping, just leave it alone. The fluid that is in there will last forever. Usually when they slip it is because a seal lis leaking. The #1 cause of leaky seals is that someone along the line topped it off with ATF. ATF will cause the seals to leak.

If it does not slip, resist the temptaion to open it up. Just leave well enough alone.

[hkestes]

Here is a link to a thread on P15-D24 discussing a great looking 265 build.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=14863

[50 chrysler]

is this 10 wt able to be mixed with the existing fluid?


thanks for the info 50 plym I have 1 more for you my spitfire has run 30 wt non detergent oil for all its life as far as I know if I change to 20/50 detergent will it plug the oil passages and cause damage to the engine

[five lug]

Have a 47 dodge pickup with a stock six. want to replace the stock dodge with a desoto spit fire six. how and what do I need to hook up the dodge three speed transmission and clutch to the spitfire. Any information would be appreciated.

five lug

[OldoginMd]

Question ,

I have a 53 T&C wagon with a spitfire six and 3 speed what v-8 will bolt into this

configuration ?

[Rusty O'Toole]

Chrysler Spitfire Six is an excellent engine. Chrysler featured the best engineering but very conservative. This engine had insert bearings, full pressure oiling, and full flow oil filter when Chevs had babbit bearings, splash oiling and partial flow filter (if it had a filter at all)

This was the standard engine used in DeSoto and Chrysler from 1938 to 1954. They were also used in Dodge heavy trucks ( 1 1/2 ton and up) until 1962, in military Power Wagons (like the ambulances on MASH) until 1968, and as industrial and marine engines until 1972. Yes Massey Ferguson used a Chrysler industrial engine, in tractors and combines, and they are all interchangeable. Car, truck, industrial, or marine.

There was one odd ball and that is the Fluid Torque Drive model, NOT Fluid Drive. Fluid Torque Drive was an option from 1951 to 53, it was the same as Fluid Drive except with a torque converter instead of fluid drive unit. Some of them had a torque converter that used the engine oil, some did not. This was ONLY on Fluid Torque Drive, and Plymouth Hydrive 1953.

Parts are available and they are cheap. Millions of these engines were made and many are still in service. Most parts can be bought from your local auto parts store, others from Vintage Power Wagons and other Chrysler specialists. Right now VPW is selling a set of six NOS pistons for $65. How good do you want it?

The engines themselves are generally reliable and long lived. Engine life, with regular maintenance, about 80,000 miles. Maybe as low as 50,000 in a neglected car, possibly over 100,000 in exceptional cases. I expect if you rebuilt one with modern pistons and rings, and used synthetic oil, 100,000 would be a breeze.

They can be hopped up. Not much is available anymore for hot rod parts. You can still buy dual carb intakes, and Edgy Edgerton makes a finned aluminum head, and he can regrind your cam and lifters as well.

This is a long stroke high torque motor well suited to hauling a heavy car around. Owners report that they can drive them anywhere at speed up to 60 or 65, and get 17 MPG.

Flash performance off the line, especially with Fluid Drive, is not in their repertoire. Built for comfort not for speed is the motto of the flathead Chrysler.

Incidentally Canadian made Plymouths and Dodges and Dodge trucks used a small bore, destroked version of the same engine. This is because Chrysler Canada had only one engine factory and it made only one engine. In the US Plymouth and Dodge had their own engine which looked practically identical but measured 23 inches long at the head vs 25 inches for the big one. Something to keep in mind when buying parts or thinking of an engine swap.

There are other details to it, like driving and maintaining the fluid drive transmission. This is a simple rugged setup, easy and cheap to maintain. It is also easy to drive but a special technique is required as it is a cross between a manual 4 speed trans and an automatic. If you buy the car come back and we can discuss all the details.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Question ,

I have a 53 T&C wagon with a spitfire six and 3 speed what v-8 will bolt into this

configuration ?
Nothing will bolt in. Oh maybe if you found a 1951-53 Chrysler Hemi with Fluid Drive but what are the chances of that.

Best answer, stick with the flathead six. Next best, sell it and buy a V8 car. If you like Chryslers, they started making V8s in 1951. A New Yorker wagon came with the hemi. Newer Chryslers with V8s, from the fifties and sixties, are pretty common.

Last choice, swap in a V8. This requires making mounts, and modifying a few other things. Such as changing the rear axle. More trouble than it is worth when so many V8 cars are available.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Have a 47 dodge pickup with a stock six. want to replace the stock dodge with a desoto spit fire six. how and what do I need to hook up the dodge three speed transmission and clutch to the spitfire. Any information would be appreciated.

five lug
The DeSoto engine will bolt up to the trans. The motor mounts need to be relocated 2" forward. Some frames have the bolt holes already drilled. The rad needs to move forward too, the engine is 2" longer. On some vehicles you can take out the rad support and turn it around or bolt the rad onto the front of the rad support instead of the back.

[Rusty O'Toole]

I just noticed I wasted 15 minutes replying to an 8 year old thread. What a maroon.

[73RR]

Question ,
I have a 53 T&C wagon with a spitfire six and 3 speed what v-8 will bolt into this configuration ?


Nothing will bolt in. Oh maybe if you found a 1951-53 Chrysler Hemi with Fluid Drive but what are the chances of that.

Best answer, stick with the flathead six. Next best, sell it and buy a V8 car. If you like Chryslers, they started making V8s in 1951. A New Yorker wagon came with the hemi. Newer Chryslers with V8s, from the fifties and sixties, are pretty common.

Last choice, swap in a V8. This requires making mounts, and modifying a few other things. Such as changing the rear axle. More trouble than it is worth when so many V8 cars are available.

...OldoginMd was a current post so you aren't completely 'colored'....

I disagree with the "Nothing will bolt in" response, but some additional details from the OP might be in order as to his expectations.

Yes, the 6 uses a front cradle mount unlike most of the other v-8's of the period so a one-for-one 'bolt-in' will not happen (maybe a 270?) but there were plenty of v-8 with manual 3-speed so it is possible to put something in front of the trans, it just may not be a smart choice for longevity.

.

[Rusty O'Toole]

What V8 and manual trans will bolt in to a 53 Chrysler six? The only direct bolt in I know of is the 51-53 Hemi Chrysler. They were used in the six cylinder chassis at that time, the smaller Chrysler with six was the Windsor, same car with V8 was the Saratoga, the long wheelbase V8 car was the New Yorker or Imperial. So Chrysler made the swap first. But what are the chances of picking up a 51-53 Hemi at your nearest junkyard?

Have seen several threads by people who have put V8s in early fifties Chryslers. It is not a huge job as such things go, at least on 51 up models, but it is not a bolt in either.

[OldoginMd]

I was just wondering because the engine in this ambulance was locked up and thought I may be able to just find something in a V-8 that would bolt up with little modification
I will yank it out this summer and see what the problem is , I know it sat for 25 years in a barn and has 18k on the clock . If what Rusty says is true may just rebuild it and go

[Normbc9]

We still have 1950's models of the Spitfire sixes in use as Fire Pump drives on a fleet of wild land fire engines. All are now converted to 12 volt and are (in a way) self contained. All now are equipped with an HEI and also a later set of carburetors (these engines came stock with dual carburetors) and also now have electric furl pumps. Some have over 30,000 hours on them and the RPM's during use do vary. If you have a genuine Spitfire six you have a good strong motor!
Normbc9

[Rusty O'Toole]

I was just wondering because the engine in this ambulance was locked up and thought I may be able to just find something in a V-8 that would bolt up with little modification
I will yank it out this summer and see what the problem is , I know it sat for 25 years in a barn and has 18k on the clock . If what Rusty says is true may just rebuild it and go
You may not need to take it out or even take it apart. Try filling the cylinders with thin penetrating oil. Automatic transmission fluid and diesel fuel make a good mix and not too expensive. Let it soak in for a week or 2 then try to turn the motor by hand. If you can get it to budge, turn it back and forth and see if it will come free. If it turns a full turn you can spin it with the starter, with the plugs out, and blow the oil out of the cylinders. Cover the engine with rags or you will have a mess. Once it is turning over a good mechanic should be able to get it running.

Or, you could take the head off and inspect the valves and pistons. This is a safer way to proceed. You will be able to see what needs to be done.