Anybody using the Halibrand french flathead block?

[williebill]

This has probably been covered here before,but I'm curious if anybody is using/building one of these blocks?Looking for the good,the bad,and the ugly on these.Saw a lot of hype in the mags at first,not a word since.I know they are kinda bastard blocks,but all new,with no cracks can't be bad....Or can it?? Thanks http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[CheatersPete]

I'm using the french flathead block!
There's is one in the 4 doors mercury, even in the lincoln 47 of my friend, i'm actualy working on a stroker one! with a 4 speed muncie.
pics on my website next monday.
www.thecheatersgang.com (http://www.thecheatersgang.com)

The quality of the block is really good!
The only bad thing is the old style of the rear of the block.

[fuel pump]

I've got one but it's still stiing on the shelf. Maybe I'll start a p[roject for it someday. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[modernbeat]

Guy in my club used one in his AV8 on a '32 frame.

Got it all built up using a Ford block then found out the block was bad. Built up the French engine and then found out that the hump on the bellhousing hit the firewall! Had to strip the engine down, performed massive surgery on the block to grind off the hump, plug the resulting holes, and make it all pretty. Repaint and reassemble the engine and all was good.

[Kevin Lee]

I heard that ugly hump had provisions for an hour meter. Why not keep the hump, chop the firewall, and look for the appropriate gauge?

[DrJ]

The Machinist at Joe Reath Speed Equip. showed me the meter atachment on the block and in disgust said they tapped it for METRIC threads! The rest of the block is still regular American thread.
I think, unless SCTA breaks down (as they should IMO) and allows them to run in the regular flathead class at the lakes and Bonneville, it's going to remain just a cute "Street Rod" engine.

[williebill]

Thanks folks appreciate the info..If anybody else knows about any weird parts interchange problems,please post.As dumb as I am,I need all the help I can get.

[TV]

Im building a 3/8x3/8 in a French block, the bores were holey and we had to overbore and sleeve.This one will have a a Potvin Eleminator cam, pop up pistons with Navaro High Dome heads, and a 4carb manafold and 4 97's.This is a test engine for a project my son and I are working on.I'll let you know how it runs when it gets going.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[modernbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not keep the hump, chop the firewall, and look for the appropriate gauge?


[/ QUOTE ]

'Cause the car was DONE, as in painted, polished, and buffed when we found out the engine was no good.

Plus, the owner is sorta disgusted that he's got a "late" flathead. Not a French thing, just a genuine vs replacement part thing. He wanted to make some attempt to disguise it's late model origins. I don't blame him.

As for differences, I've heard of lots including a different cam center to crank center difference, different lifter bore diameter, more restrictive exaust ports in the French blocks, some differences in the pan rails and crank seal areas, and more...All that may be worth having better alloy and more precise castings that only have a few hours use rather than the rusty, imprecise and cracked relics we've been working with.
;-)
The SCTA banning them from record setting competition is the final word in my book though. Untill that changes, I won't have one.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
As for differences, I've heard of lots including a different cam center to crank center difference, different lifter bore diameter, more restrictive exaust ports in the French blocks, some differences in the pan rails and crank seal areas, and more...

[/ QUOTE ]

These things have been around for a long time & this is the first I've ever heard of incompatibilities. They've been used by hot rodders in Europe for a lot longer than since they were "discovered" a couple years ago by Halibrand... I think you might have some bad poop here - I do gotta add, I haven't had my mits on one yet, but I've talked with some folks that have, so you can take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt...

You might have something regarding the pan rail - depending on which oil pan you've got, I know there's a difference in the dipstick tube, but that's about it.

If the cam/crank centerline were an issue, you couldn't use production/oem Ford timnig gears & I'm about 99% sure you can.

As far as the exhaust, everyone I've talked to says they've got a real nicely finished exhaust as opposed to Henry's "slam into the end of the block & make a 90* turn" setup. Their intake ports are close to "D" shaped & supposedly flow better out of the box.

The only "incompatibilities" I can imagine are the accessories & half-metric exhaust studs...

Are they stronger? I dunno, but everyone thinks they are. Has anyone flow benched them? Again, I dunno, but why else would SCTA ban them if they didn't think they'd make more power? They're not old enough? They're too strong? The SCTA must believe that there is a power advantage starting off.

Like I said, I haven't had my hands on one...yet. I've got a project in mind for the future & it'll most likely have a French block...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[LIMEY]

I,ve got one coming over now in the A coupe i bought from Dusty, i think that came from Halibrand.
I just picked up four German flatheads too very simular to
the French ones, so Ernie come get yours!! :-)

[av8]

First, they are not Halibrand products. The "reconsituted" Halibrand company contracted to purchase a pile of French military rebuilds, plus new blocks, cranks, rods, etc., from a fellow in Texas who deals in vintage military spares. Halibrand's financial woes resulted in the French inventory reverting to the military parts dealer, where it's now available to all and sundry.

Overall the quality of the French castings is excellent and a significant improvement over the domestic castings. It's important to remember that the French hardware was being cast well into the '70s and as such benefitted from advancing metalurgical and foundry technology. The decks, cylinder walls, front and rear bulkeheads, and main-bearing webs are thicker. Casting and machining quality are excellent.

In an early article on the French blocks, MCF reported that the ports flowed as well stock as MCF's "street" port job did, as though the stock French configuration was a good thing. Although I haven't witnessed a flow-test of the stock French block, intuition tells me that it's a bit restricted. Tony Barron, who has flowed the block both stock and modified, said -- in effect -- that the block simply will not make significant horsepower with the stock ports and bowls. Dave Tatom's flowbench experience bears this out.

The large "shelves" in the bowls might offer some benefit at low engine speeds where this military engine was designed to operate. Don't forget that it has provisions for a speed governor incorporated into the casting. But these are hardly the stuff of which hot rods are made!

I have very little first-hand experience with the block. So far, I've ported only a half-dozen, but those that have been built up and are on the road are very strong runners, so apparently the port and bowl work are paying off.

[yorgatron]

seems goofy to me that SCTA won't allow those.do they allow other blocks for say SBC and the like? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
so Ernie come get yours!! :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave early tomorrow for a couple weeks - will get in touch as soon as I get back - things should settle down a bit once I get back from this trip (he said hopefully).

[ QUOTE ]
First, they are not Halibrand products.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - that's why I used the word 'discovered' & put it in quotation marks... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[williebill]

Anybody know the name,phone number,etc., of the military dealer from Texas that sells this stuff?Thanks.

[30roadster]

here's the thread..... if your interested contact John Scrabanek 979-696-0115 - call after 6 and before 10 pm.
central time. I put the motors on my webpage for him so you can get a peek at them.

if you have any trouble getting in touch with him, pm me and i'll give you the owners ( military restorers ) number. try John at home first.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=245121&fpart=& PHPSESSID=

[williebill]

Thanks.I'm too new to have seen the posts from December.I appreciate you doing the link.I need to call this guy when I get a little extra car money.Does he still have a lot of these?

[30roadster]

you can relax - no real hurry... he got them back from Halibrand about 2 years ago. i can't remember how many blocks he said he had.....a bunch... he's got about 200 built engines if i remember correctly.

[zonkola]

[ QUOTE ]
I have very little first-hand experience with the block. So far, I've ported only a half-dozen, but those that have been built up and are on the road are very strong runners, so apparently the port and bowl work are paying off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too funny. You've ported six of these blocks that most of us have only read about, which you consider to be "very little first-hand experience". Perhaps once you've personally casted some blocks you'll consider yourself knowledgeable? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

p.s. Sign me up for an aluminum one.

[av8]

In this particular context I guess it does sound funny, but my point of reference is my mentoring, from several veterans who have built hundreds of flathead race and street-performance motors. That's my perspective and it keeps me humble.

The mentoring is an on-going process for me, and I ask to have my work critiqued with almost every block I do; a simple port match and cleanup for a mild street build has become routine and I'm comfortable with my own assessment in this situation. With higher-performance and race blocks, however, I feel I will always have something to learn, and that's what makes it so damn interesting!

[zonkola]

Well, it sounds like fun anyway. I'm looking forward to some serious schooling myself this summer, when my hacked up '32 pickup cab gets whittled down to a highly modified RPU cab.

(I don't think a lack of humility will be a problem in my case--I'll be psyched once I've mastered which end of the grinder to hold.)

[av8]

The edit option on my first post on this thread has run out, so I'll post a couple of pictures here so those who haven't seen the blocks first-hand.

First, the steps or "shelves" in the bowls . . .

[av8]

. . . and now with the shelves knocked way down and blended.

[av8]

The intake runners in the French blocks are spaced wider apart, side to side, and not even close to matching up with domestic Ford/Mercury manifolds or any of the aftermarket multi-carb units. Some builders go to great lengths to split the difference between the two sides, drilling the manifold mounting-bolt holes (and I'd guess the indexing-pin holes) oversize so the manifold can be moved around.

To us, this seems to be an overly complicated, academic solution, particularly so because there is abundant material on the inboard side of the intake runners to permit them to be matched to a standard gasket and consequently standard-pattern manifolds.

Our approach is simple and traditional: Match the runners in the block and those in the manifold to the same gasket. So far it's working, producing strong-running street-performance motors.

Here you can see how much the French runners are "off" and how much sealing surface remains after the port is straightened out and matched to the gasket and manifold.

[av8]

And here's what we are doing with the deck relief -- just softening the edges and polishing the surface without increasing he depth of the relief.

[34Fordtk]

Check out who has this one for sale http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2464915 035

[Flatdog]

Mike great info again thanks.Any Bing porting tales ,info ,anything? Pretty please.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Yes! We need a look at what's inside Bingelli's head!
And he's a four banger expert, too, apparently...

[av8]

I've never heard Ed Binggeli talk about four-bangers. Our resident four-banger expert, now retired and living in the Sierra foothills, is Stan Vermiel who began building fours when he was in his early teens. Stan built and raced some relatively exotic motors, such as DOHC HALs and M-D Offys. Stan's dad, Louie, was a pioneer in West Coast midget and sprint car racing. He helped found NARC, and built and operated Calistoga Speedway for many years.