TOOLS, Rust Removal, the easy way...

[CharlieLed]

I finally decided to look into setting up an electrolysis rig just to see if it really worked. I had two spindles from the Corvette rearend that I am using for my Merc, both were rusty and I didn't relish the thought of spending an hour or so with the wire wheel on them. Here is the one that I have yet to dip, it is not as bad as the one that I finished but you can see the rust on the yoke and spline...

[CharlieLed]

This is the other spindle, it sat in the electrolysis dip for about 6 hours. As you can see, the rust is gone and the metal looks almost new. I hope that the pics show the detail...

[Rude Dude]

This may sound dumb but I was on a vintage truck site that showed some guys using molasses I think it was heated. The parts they had put in homemade vat came out like they had been sandblasted. I have been trying to find the site to post here.

[Elrod]

Molasses trick has been discussed hundreds of times here. Do a search.

Cool! So, that's the outcome with the ole battery charger and sodium carbonate? I'm definately going to use that technique!

[McGrath]

Looks like it worked pretty good.

[wayfarer]

I've messed around with the reverse electrolysis before, but it takes too long. I prefer to use muriatic acid to strip small parts. It's like $3 a gallon at the pool store and works really fast.

[CharlieLed]

This was just too damn cheap and easy...
Take one plastic bucket, kitty litter bucket in my case...
Add enough water to cover the piece (about two gallons for me),
Add a tablespoon of laundry soda per gallon of water,
Hook a wire (coat hanger in my case) to the rusty part,
Get another piece of metal to act as the anode (1 inch tubing worked good for me),
1 battery charger...

Mix the soda into the water, hook the wire to the part and suspend in the liquid until completely covered, place the anode into the water so that it doesn't touch the part, hook the positive lead from the battery charger to the anode and the negative lead to the wire holding the part. Turn the charger on, check that it is drawing current (about an amp in my setup), and let it cook.

Here's the setup I used....

[Jojo]

That's great.

Do you have a photo of the electrolysis set-up?

[CharlieLed]

Here's what the water looks like AFTER the process was completed...

[CharlieLed]

Here's the laundry soda I used. I used just a few cents worth of the soda, some scrap metal, a coat hanger, and some electricity...how simple is that!

[nailhead_sled]

Potentially dumb question… Does the electrolysis process eat away at aluminum parts like the molasses solution will?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Great Post!! any safety precautions?? can't wait to try this out. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Hot Rod To Hell]

[ QUOTE ]
Potentially dumb question… Does the electrolysis process eat away at aluminum parts like the molasses solution will?


[/ QUOTE ]
Another potentially dumb question: You have rusty aluminum parts??? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Machinos]

Yep, I'm so gonna do this. What amp setting did you put the charger at? Mine does 6 volt 2 amp, 12 volt 6 amp and 12 volt 10 amp (if I recall correctly). The best part is that we have a million of those kitty litter buckets laying around, heheh.

Is it possible to use any non-metallic basin? If you use more water/soda do you have to up the amps to get the same effect?

[Noname38]

LMAO sorry couldn't resist . Just so you all know I'm not laughin at the procedure it was the comment about rusty aluminum

[lik2writ]

Nice setup. Just a word of precaution : Do this in a well ventilated or open area if you can, no flames and no smoking. The bubbles that arise are hydrogen gas , when they mix with air they are flamable. Also, don't hang over the brew too long, not good for the long range health plan.

[lik2writ]

If you have softer metals embedded in the steel, like alum. or brass or copper, these will be eaten away at a fast rate. If you let your battery charger terminal slip in to the mix, it will be eaten as well.

[TheDooWopKid13]

i have used this stuff called blue lightning rust remover. its expensive ($25 a gallon), but you put it on and less then 20 minutes your rust free. its so strong that it will eat up your asphalt, and bleech your concrete.

[Levis Classic]

Great post!

[48_HEMI]

Now if I get about ten or fifteen of you guys to help me get my car bck out of the swimming pool! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[nailhead_sled]

All smart ass comments aside, I enquired as to the safety of aluminum in this solution as I have an aluminum intake with a rusty carb adaptor that will not come off for love nor money.
Not that I feel the need to explain myself or anything http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif…..

[MBL]

Hey we need to drop some bodies in Sinners pool.
Tim
MBL

[CharlieLed]

To answer a few questions:
Set the charger to 12 volts, 6 V will work but it takes longer.
Adding more soda does not help the process, the salt molecules in the soda provide a path for the rust particles to travel, so just a small amount does the trick.
I pulled the anode out of the solution (turn off the power first) after about 3 hours just to see if there was anything going on, it was covered with gray sludge. I wiped it off and replaced it back into the solution and turned the power back on. I believe that the cleaner the anode is, the better the electrolysis process.
This setup can be used in almost any size...I saw one website when I searched for "electrolysis rust" where a guy made a plywood box big enough to put a trailer frame in it. He lined it with plastic to hold the solution and used multiple current sources and anodes but it still worked well.

lik2writ posted a word of caution about the hydrogen gas that is released in the bubbles. There is some hydrogen gas released in this process but much of the hydrogen combines with the carbonate in the soda and becomes carbon dioxide. HOWEVER, if you use stainless steel as an anode (the rod that you stick into the solution to draw the rust away from your part) or use a stainless steel bowl to put the solution into which also becomes the anode...then there are chromates released into the water (it becomes yellow) and this solution now becomes toxic. DON'T USE STAINLESS STEEL unless you have the facilities to dispose of the chromate solution that is produced.

[Paul]

I assume the parts need to be cleaned of grease, wax, paint or any non conductive covering?

Paul

[4t64rd]

[ QUOTE ]
lik2writ posted a word of caution about the hydrogen gas that is released in the bubbles. There is some hydrogen gas released in this process but much of the hydrogen combines with the carbonate in the soda and becomes carbon dioxide. HOWEVER, if you use stainless steel as an anode (the rod that you stick into the solution to draw the rust away from your part) or use a stainless steel bowl to put the solution into which also becomes the anode...then there are chromates released into the water (it becomes yellow) and this solution now becomes toxic. DON'T USE STAINLESS STEEL unless you have the facilities to dispose of the chromate solution that is produced.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is the chromate solution useful for anything else?

[Hot Rod To Hell]

[ QUOTE ]
I pulled the anode out of the solution (turn off the power first) after about 3 hours just to see if there was anything going on, it was covered with gray sludge. I wiped it off and replaced it back into the solution and turned the power back on. I believe that the cleaner the anode is, the better the electrolysis process.


[/ QUOTE ]
I anodize titanium and niobium pretty regularly, and here is the Shape of the Anode that I use. I use stainless, but you could use any kind of sheet metal. Just bend it to fit inside the bucket, then cut a strip like 1" wide, about 3/4 of the way up one side, then bend it up so it will stick out of the electrolyte, so you can hook your charger to it. Oh Yeah... the reason for this setup is a larger Anodic surface area will make the process go faster, and you will not have to clean the Anode as often!

[NealinCA]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume the parts need to be cleaned of grease, wax, paint or any non conductive covering?

Paul


[/ QUOTE ]

Paul - No, you only need to clean a spot to hook up the charger lead. The paint, grease, and rust will all come off, it just takes a little longer and you will need to clean the anode.

I have a 55 gallon plastic drum that I have been cleaning everything that I can fit at least half way in. Wheels, axles, driveshafts, crossmembers, etc.

It works good, give it a try.

Neal

[Dan]

Am I the only person who is scared of mixing electricity and water http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[geemann51]

Chuck, one word. TECHOMATIC! That's great. Kudos for not sandbaggin' until the next tech week. This is very cool. It's nice to see something I can do with stuff that's out in the garage and not a bunch of trips for supplies. BTW, I figured out the tranny, thanks for your offer.

[wayfarer]

Dan, it's not a problem. The process is actually called reverse electrolysis. Electrolysis involves splitting water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen. The oxygen binds to the metal, making it rust. My wife performs electrolysis experiments in her middle school science classroom. It's not dangerous. This process is reversing the polarity so the oxidized metal particles return to the water from your rusty piece of metal, leaving pristine clean metal. My wife's students asked her why they needed to learn about electrolysis and she told them about this application.

[Petejoe]

Ok, I have a related but different problem. I have an old clawfoot porcelain tub that I want to remove the rust from. This container (the tub) is non conductive. Will installing two electrodes in the tub remove the rust that is attached to the tub surface????????

[Jeff Norwell]

Very cool and informative post Charlie!!.....bookmark this one

[Dan]

are there certain metals that work best for the anode and the wire attached to the part?

[Dirk35]

Just so you all know, the molasses works. Quite well too. But takes a long time. Only downfall to the molasses I found is that you have to completly (I mean completly!!!) clean any oily residue off. But after than, the rust scale comes right off ater a three weeks in the winter in my garage.

Probably wouldve taken only a week in the summer time.

Im sure you have to get the oil off just as good for the electrolysis too though.

My windshield hinges came out looking like very pitted bare metal.

[Hellfish]

[ QUOTE ]
All smart ass comments aside, I enquired as to the safety of aluminum in this solution as I have an aluminum intake with a rusty carb adaptor that will not come off for love nor money.
Not that I feel the need to explain myself or anything http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif…..


[/ QUOTE ]

try EvapoRust. I de-rusted several cast carb bodies that way and the brass parts were unharmed. I'm pretty sure it's safe for aluminum, but check their website

[Morrisman]

Hot Rod,
So, I use an all stainless bucket as my anode, and hang my rusty piece of junk from a plastic pole across the top of said stainless bucket, so I don't spark up. Will this work, or have I missed something?. Saves messing round curving, cutting and hanging anodes and stuff in the bucket.
Paul

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who is scared of mixing electricity and water

[/ QUOTE ]

Long as you don't throw the battery charger in, you'll be OK!

Just like washing your engine compartment or driving through a puddle. 12V ain't gonna hurt ya!


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Hot Rod To Hell]

[ QUOTE ]
Hot Rod,
So, I use an all stainless bucket as my anode, and hang my rusty piece of junk from a plastic pole across the top of said stainless bucket, so I don't spark up. Will this work, or have I missed something?. Saves messing round curving, cutting and hanging anodes and stuff in the bucket.
Paul



[/ QUOTE ]
The only problems I could see with that, are 1)you would have to dump the bucket to clean the Anode... 2) you would have to put your cathode terminal into the electrolyte [shouldn't cause much trouble] , OR not submerge the part completely... 3) Your bucket would be electrified; if you touch the bucket AND the part at the same time, YOU are electrified! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Elmo Rodge]

Cast iron is fine fine but, my understanding is that there is a problem with hydrogen embrittlement with steel. Izzat true? Wayno

[CharlieLed]

[ QUOTE ]
Cast iron is fine fine but, my understanding is that there is a problem with hydrogen embrittlement with steel. Izzat true? Wayno

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I have read, hydrogen embrittlement does occur as a result of this process, BUT...the reports that address this condition go on to say that the embrittlement is only temporary and the surface of the steel returns to it's "normal" state shortly after being exposed to the air. However, caution was made to leave the part alone (no grinding or machining) for 15 minutes or so, to give the part time to normalize.

[zgears]

hydrogen embrittlement? what does that mean outside off the lab?

[polisher]

Hydrogen embrittlement is when hydrogen is partially trapped in the metal making it brittle.
Tends to occur in hardened metals only.
If your part is untempered it shouldn't be a problem.
You can release the hydrogen by baking the part at 375 dgrees farenhiet for 1 hour.
This should be done with in 24 hours and as soon as is practical after the part is removed from the bath.
As a note, baths are easiest made using sodium bicarbonate.
Stay away from detergents and cleaners unless you know what the by products can be.
Ie, if they contain chlorates the may give off chlorine.
best anodes are stainless steel.
If you think a battery charger is good, try hooking it up to your weld set, but don't try it on aluminum, it might self destruct.

[zgears]

so sodium bicarbonate... baking soda, is the best? what about a stronger base? or lighter acid?

[Machinos]

[ QUOTE ]
try EvapoRust. I de-rusted several cast carb bodies that way and the brass parts were unharmed. I'm pretty sure it's safe for aluminum, but check their website

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, safe for aluminum. Also safe for rubber, and paint...

[2tall2beahotrodder]

Some one shoud buy those plastic above ground swimming pools. like 10 by 10, and 4 feet deep... Could throw some big shit in there... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

steve-

[bigron]

i have used naval jelly with good results on small parts and also inside motorcycle gas tanks. i'm going to have to try this though.

[InPrimer]

for anyone conserned about getting shocked, go to hardware store and get a steel electrical box, run a cord out to A/C and install a GFI receptacle( use it to plug in your charger) total cost less than $6.00 and that sucker will trip before you can get shocked

[Spitfire1776]

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound dumb but I was on a vintage truck site that showed some guys using molasses I think it was heated. The parts they had put in homemade vat came out like they had been sandblasted. I have been trying to find the site to post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try this site. http://virtualindian.org/projrust.htm#molasses

[dixiedog]

I am going to try this on some A parts that i have.

I have the molasses mix (1 part Molasses to 3 parts water) and it works really good except the cleaning of the residue

The acid works, except you loose good metal along with the bad and the fumes are pretty rough. When I did a door panel on an old truck it had little bubbles come up under the paint about 6 months later and what was weird was this was the only place it happened.

[286merc]

A couple of points need clarifying.

1. Electrolisis works well as long as the anode can SEE the metal being derusted. This means that it wont do squat down inside block water passages.

2. Muratic Acid is nothing more than a 40% diluted Hydrochloric Acid. Damn dangerous to use and attacks good metal very aggressively. Needs to be neutralized in a cold water and baking soda mix.
2A. Phosphoric Acid is a lot less aggressive and is the basis of naval jelly, metal etchants and several gallon jug rust eater products.

3. Molasses mix is mainly good for blocks and heads or other stuff where time isnt an issue. No known safety issues and it is biodegradable.

4. Sodium Hydroxide/Lye/Caustic Soda is not an acid, it is an alkaline. However it is extremely corrosoive and highly reactive so it is as dangerous as concentrated Sulphuric acid. It makes a great degreaser especially with a tiny bit of dishwashing liquid added.

5. Products which contain no (man made) acids or alkalines. These have been around for decades, usually come and go and pop up under a new name. Often quite expensive. Most are citric acid based which is a natural organic product. You can esily buy citric acid and make your own deruster for a fraction of commercial products.

Ive used all the above over the past 40+ years, each has its place along with pros and cons.

When working with any acid or alkali always wear the proper safety clothing as well as having a functioning water hose real handy. The shit will eat thru skin in seconds.