serious lowering: rear of '36 Ford [Archive]

50Fraud

02-20-2004, 03:47 AM

I've decided that a big drop is needed at the back of my '36 -- around 4", maybe 5". Since torching the springs and long shackles were bad ideas even back in the day, I've narrowed my consideration to two possible methods:

1) Z the frame, keeping the torque tube and transverse leaf details essentially as they are. The spring eyes have already been reversed, but there may be another inch or so to be found in the spring.

This is the most traditional solution. It will require modifications to the floor as well as multiple surgeries to the frame, but would retain the lovable Ford mechanical details for better or for worse.

2) Change to parallel leaves and open drive, and adjust the ride height further if necessary with lowering blocks. I think the old fart inside me will insist on keeping the Ford 3-speed and banjo rear end, so it can still stay largely early Ford. It will be necessary to "C" the frame. This solution is somewhat more mechanism-intensive, but with perhaps less floor and frame fabrication. I suspect that it might be the better of the two for ride and handling.

Has anybody been in either of these places personally, who would share the pros and cons of either solution?

Have I overlooked any alternative solutions that have worked well for others?

Here's the car:

Jeem

02-20-2004, 04:05 AM

Whatever you do, don't go so much in the rear that it is lower than the front. Level, maybe. Me (?), I would drop the car a couple more inches all around and retain the cool rake.

Beautiful car

Oh, and thanks, we'll see....

whodaky

02-20-2004, 04:28 AM

what about reversing the eye on the main leave that will give you a little!

JimC

02-20-2004, 07:40 AM

Remember, when you lower the rear the front will rise a little.
That said, I would go with the paralel leaf.
Chasis Engineering makes a well built system for your car.
A local shop has a 35 sedan that is in the works now.
They have installed the CE setup.
It is a straitforward install and instructions are good.
Then the lowering blocks can be built in any omcrement you want.

Jim

HotRodMicky

02-20-2004, 07:50 AM

Check how much suspension travel you have know.
If it still allows mor drooping the rear i would use longer shackles and add a panhard bar.Easy and it still handles good. The shackles on my '40 where 6 inch long. The chassis will limit your suspension, not the way you do it(transverse or paralell).No need you a CE kit.
Michael

ELpolacko

02-20-2004, 08:59 AM

My vote is to measure how much you want the car lowered, pull the rear spring and have it de-arched that same amount.

install de-arched spring and be happy. Total cost should be well under $100.00.

Judging by the picture I would recomend 3"

36couper

02-20-2004, 09:26 AM

50Fraud..........beautiful car!
I used a Posie's super slide parallel kit for my '36. It was an absolute breeze to install. It allows you two or three adjustments for lowering.
I had a friend use a Chassis Engineering kit but he couldn't get the rear down without some serious lowering blocks.
The ride the parallels give is, well, unparalleled.

Django

02-20-2004, 09:31 AM

Are you keeping the rake, or are you going for a tail dragger? 5" is definitely tail dragger territory with no change in the front.

That is a damn fine car.

DrJ

02-20-2004, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check how much suspension travel you have know.
If it still allows mor drooping the rear i would use longer shackles and add a panhard bar.Easy and it still handles good. The shackles on my '40 where 6 inch long. The chassis will limit your suspension, not the way you do it(transverse or paralell).No need you a CE kit.
Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thoughts before reading it...That way you can change ride height with a simple shackle change.

Also, if you go tail dragger, which I think looks bitchin on a '36, it will be NEEDING skirts!

Damn, that's a pretty car... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Was that hot taken in front of Ruby's in Playa Redondo ?

tootallrodder

02-20-2004, 12:54 PM

I used the Posie's Adjustable kit in the back of my 36 Sedan. It rides great and I could go lower by using the lower mounting holes for the spring front but it looks fine in the upper location. I have a dropped axle up fron with a reversed eye front spring. laike said in other posts, you don't want to drop the back lower than the front.

good looking coupe. good luck.

ShortBus

02-20-2004, 01:04 PM

That car has the world's mildest chop..

I would channel it over a Gremlin frame or just put some sacks of concrete (or dead bodies) in the trunk.

I lowered mine with corpses and it rides great!

mr.midnite

02-20-2004, 01:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, that's a pretty car...

[/ QUOTE ]

arguably the best looking Three Window from ol' Henry

Elrusto

02-20-2004, 07:28 PM

How bout' this?

Fastsporty

02-20-2004, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lowered mine with corpses and it rides great!

[/ QUOTE ]
And I believed you when you said it was just your 'Dirty' laundry in the trunk...
.... I mean it smelled like dirty laundry...

and if any of u's needs some 'extra' a...'weight' in trunks of u's v'hicles, u's just let me knows... I goota cousin vinnie that can handle it....

50Fraud

02-20-2004, 10:07 PM

DrJ has caught me. Inspired by Hot Wheels' "Swoop Coupe" (designed by the excellent Phil Riehlman), I wanna drive a prewar custom with skirts before I'm all done. I already have the skirts, but I won't put them on until the rear of the car is as low as the front.

The front is quite low now, with a dropped axle and reversed eyes. Notice where the wheel well cuts across the sidewall. But the back should be at least as low, and the rear rims should be mostly hidden by the skirts.

If I took out the rear spring and set the rails on the axle, that would be just about right. There's about 4" of travel now. So it's obvious that the frame will have to be clearanced.

The rear spring is already rolled. De-arching it might get another 2". I'm not too keen on long shackles, even with a Panhard rod, but maybe...

36Couper and tootallrodder, you both mentioned the adjustable Posies setup, but neither of your cars is nearly as low as I'm talking about. Where is the adjustability, and how does it permit really low ride heights?

And to get back to the original question, who among you has done radical lowering at the rear of an early Ford with either kind of springs (transverse or parallel), and how satisfied were you with the driveability of the result?

50Fraud

02-20-2004, 10:13 PM

Thank you all for your input and your kind words.

Elrust-O-Rod, that's obviously waay low. How was it done?

DrJ

02-20-2004, 11:44 PM

since that's the case, "Z" the frame 5" and it'll be purrrfect (1" tail dragging)
Remember to Z it far enough forward that the rear radius rods don't hit the frame.
The skirts need to just hide the rims, just.... but you already knew that.

Elrusto

02-21-2004, 12:22 AM

This is Pat Barnharts car, not exactly traditional.
Bags and a triangulated four bar.

Jeem

02-21-2004, 01:02 AM

El-RustO, you boys are not doing the "world's lowest front axles" anymore?! IFS and bags? What's the world coming to?!

timebandit

02-21-2004, 04:42 AM

I redesigned the rear kickup of my 35 coupe frame to get it low enough. Now I can put the frame on the ground if I want, about 5 inch more kickup than stock. But I didnt want to just Z the frame, so I designed the new kickup to follow the stock frame profile as much as possible. I still will be able to use the rumble seat.
I use a "trad" 1966 Jag suspension however, but the frame mod would be the same with a stock axle. I would have used it together with a new flat crossmember for the buggyspring in your case.
Dont have any better photo of it than this now, but I can take some closeups if you are interested.
http://home.c2i.net/torjesen/chassis35.jpg

36couper

02-21-2004, 09:18 AM

50Fraud.........my '36 sits as it is without adding lowering blocks (Posie's kit).
I have 3 daughters who love to ride with me and two of them ride in the rumble. I was afraid of bottoming out if there I used blocks. When they get tired of riding with the old man I may add blocks.

Elrusto

02-21-2004, 09:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
El-RustO, you boys are not doing the "world's lowest front axles" anymore?! IFS and bags? What's the world coming to?!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called old age!!!!
Actually it was considered but decided it wouldn't be low enough. Pat said "Its' gotta be lower than Jesse James' 36".

50Fraud

02-21-2004, 05:25 PM

Thanks again, guys.

timebandit, I'd love to see a closeup of the actual frame kickup if it's convenient for you.

35couper, both you and tootallrodder mentioned the adjustability of the Posies setup -- tootall said something about an alternate position for the front of the spring, but you've only mentioned lowering blocks. Are these the two variables that permit adjustability? How much range (preferably expressed in terms of ride height) is there in the spring mount position?

Shortbus, your suggestion would work if it weren't so messy -- have you ever seen the length of the trunk in a '36 coupe? Think bowling alley!

DrJ, you're right again -- almost. The picture was taken in the parking lot of another restaurant that's just North of Ruby's.

36couper

02-21-2004, 05:51 PM

50Fraud........see your PM's.

timebandit

02-21-2004, 07:39 PM

50Fraud. Here is a closeup of the kickup. The red lines are aprox. profile of a stock frame. I had to make clearance for the huge Jag hubs, so you could probably get low enough with a little less kick.
http://home.c2i.net/torjesen/kickup.jpg
Btw. not often you see a jag setup with 32 ford split wishbones, hu?

DeadFast 33

02-22-2004, 03:44 AM

How about simply flatening out your rear crossmember? Instead of it dipping down make it flatter, extreamly easy and quite effective. By doing that there will be no floor mods and no B.S. parallel leaf hog wash, keeep the torque tube and maybe a c-notch? My two cents, I don't know if that will take out the rake but it will get it lower.

FLIP

Mart

02-22-2004, 05:01 PM

50Fraud, If you keep the early ford axle, be careful when lowering too much. If you go too low, the axle oil runs down the torque tube and ends up in the gearbox. This happens in Old Rusty.
Measure the angle of the torque tube now, calculate how much lower the front of the torque tube would be after the lowering, and if it would be running downhill. If so you will have a problem.
Mart.

wingnutz

02-22-2004, 06:34 PM

Like to share with you how the 36 of al jefe's "Black Dahlia" was lowered..., but its to low to see it (no bags there)! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Damn ants have to duck when they see it coming!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Check it out on the Kontinental site!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
http://www.kontinentals.com/

50Fraud

02-22-2004, 06:39 PM

You guys have really given me useful insights. Timebandit and Flip, you've both given me variations on the torque tube solution that are neater that what I was contemplating.

And Mart, you point is well taken. My torque tube slopes forward now, given the forward rake of the car, but you're right: even with smaller rear tires, the lowering I'm planning will tilt the driveshaft by another inch-and-a-little. Another point for the open drive solution.

36Couper, thanks for the PM. I understand it better now.

mug

02-22-2004, 08:53 PM

We are doing a 36 3 window at our shop.We put a corvete rearend that we narrowed 5 inchs and air baged it.With a Scotts super slam front end That we lowered an extra inch.It puts the running boards on the ground. It might not be what your looking for but those cars look better the lower they get.I could take some pictures if your interested. Scott from Blue Collar Customs

50Fraud

02-23-2004, 02:15 AM

Sure, I'd love to see it. Thanks!

DrJ

02-23-2004, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
50Fraud, If you keep the early ford axle, be careful when lowering too much. If you go too low, the axle oil runs down the torque tube and ends up in the gearbox. This happens in Old Rusty.
Measure the angle of the torque tube now, calculate how much lower the front of the torque tube would be after the lowering, and if it would be running downhill. If so you will have a problem.
Mart.

[/ QUOTE ]

AV8 posted some pictures of a "catcher" that goes in the tube to stop the oil from going into the tranny, or at least slow it down.
Vern Tardel makes them.

50Fraud

04-30-2004, 05:01 PM

OK, it got done by traditional old-Ford means: further flattening of the spring, leaves removed, longer shackles, clearancing of the frame and trunk floor. Although visually it looks tail-down (from the driver's seat, too) the boards are actually dead level.

The ride is pretty awful, but this was meant to be an experiment and subject to refinement if I like the way the car looks.

One disturbing result is that I've picked up a rear-end howl that wasn't there before. Is it likely that Mart's concern about the tilted-down torgue tube is the explanation here, or is there something else that would predict gear howl as a result of lowering? Should I be concerned about consequences from driving it any distance (i.e. mechanical failure), other than the annoying noise?

alchemy

04-30-2004, 06:17 PM

Did you put a Tardel Torque Tube Baffel in it? I think if you just lowered it recently and haven't driven it much you wouldn't have let all the juice run into the trans just yet. Do you think it could be the U joint at the front of the tube making the noise. It's now at an angle it hasn't ever been at before. Might be uncomfortable.

Drain the extra fluid out of the trans at the fill plug, put it back in the rearend, then go for a drive and see if it still makes the noise.

alchemy